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The drivers of AUDI # 2


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#1 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 13:52

After their 3rd win in 4 years I went to Forix to learn about the careers AUDI's 'Young drivers car'. I found that two of them are not really that young, and that with a relatively pedestrian resume through their careers they are suddenly teamed together by AUDI for Le Mans and the Le Mans series.

 

Benoit Treluyer and Andre Lotterer spend a lot of time in Japan, there were wins and there were the occasional championship, but as far as I can see nothing really stand out. By pedestrian I do not mean poor, I mean as good as hundreds of other drivers in the various series which are not really covered to detailed.

 

What did AUDI see, how did they manage to take what was essentially journey-men and make them into a powerful driver pairing (is it a pairing when there are 3?) which arguably have been the strongest AUDI entry 4 years running. Is there a lesson here, that with the few top seats available for each driver like Benoit Treluyer, Andre Lotterer and Marcel Fassler there are many many many possibly hundreds of drivers who could be as good as strong if only the chips fell right? There is a thread dealing with F1 drivers who could have been better, who should have been recognized as better.

 

Is there a story to this?

 

:cool:



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#2 Peat

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 14:17

I think that the drivers play a relatively small part in the process. These guys are just making the most of being in an extremely professional and well-equipped team.

 

For endurance you need people who are competent, consistent, hard working and above all team players. There are many many drivers who could fit that role, but these guys are there for a reason and they should reap the rewards. 



#3 sheepgobba

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 14:21

If I am honest, I don't think they are that special or in particular top notch compared to other drivers. Seems like they are a victim of circumstance, circumstance of being provided right equipment in one of the best endurance teams since Porsche.

 

You could have faster drivers in that car but overall if the chemistry isn't there and they are unable to work together, then there's no chance of even fighting for a victory.

 

I really wish one day to have a driver line up of Alonso, Raikkonen and Lewis at Le Mans. 



#4 BRG

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 14:32

As I recall, Andre Lotterer was seen very much as a coming man in his junior formula days.  But he seems to have hit the same bump that many French drivers hit and his career stalled.  So he went to Japan, did well but it was a bit 'out of sight, out of mind'.



#5 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 15:26

Well he's German, unless you were saying they have the same problems as the French. 

 

But in general other than the lead car(for any manufacturer) with the names you remember, the other cars are a bit "Really? That guy?". But there's probably a logic to it. They're cheaper, probably harder working/less dramatic/have wider experience/etc. Benoit Treluyer also has been making his career in Japan but did a fair bit of Le Mans before the Audi drive. 



#6 Afterburner

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 15:53

After their 3rd win in 4 years I went to Forix to learn about the careers AUDI's 'Young drivers car'...
 
What did AUDI see, how did they manage to take what was essentially journey-men and make them into a powerful driver pairing (is it a pairing when there are 3?) which arguably have been the strongest AUDI entry 4 years running. Is there a lesson here, that with the few top seats available for each driver like Benoit Treluyer, Andre Lotterer and Marcel Fassler there are many many many possibly hundreds of drivers who could be as good as strong if only the chips fell right? There is a thread dealing with F1 drivers who could have been better, who should have been recognized as better.
 
Is there a story to this?
 
:cool:

I would say so, yes. I've only been following racing closely for a little over a decade, but in that short period of time I've observed and learned about a number of times in which drivers were supposed to be the next big thing and, for whatever reason, simply weren't. A prime example of this is Bourdais in F1, I think--the guy more or less ruled Champ Car only to get his derrier handed to him by one Seb Vettel and later disappear from F1 without a trace. Does this mean he's no good? I don't think so; it's simply a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, in my opinion. Bourdais never really gelled with the team due to language barriers and design issues with the car, and then he was gone. In another team, who knows what would've happened?

In keeping with the F1 theme, McLaren seems to be the place where career aspirations go to die. Montoya, Raikkonen, Alonso, Hamilton, and even Perez were all regarded as potentially strong, consistent threats for the championship with the team--Montoya didn't deliver, Raikkonen never seemed to be in the right place in the right time, Alonso had a 'personal conflict' with the management, Hamilton's head never seemed to be fully in the game after 2009, and Perez became almost completely anonymous after joining the team. I'm not really sure what happened, but had the chips fallen even a slightly different way, McLaren could've won in 2003, 2005, 2007, 2010, and 2012, making Raikkonen a two-time champ and Alonso and Lewis each three-timers (think how the grid would look given those stats, with Vettel on two championships as well). This is speaking from a very general perspective, obviously--you can play the coulda-woulda-shoulda game for any team, but it must be pretty painful for McLaren in particular.

I think it really all comes down to having a good work atmosphere. It probably sounds pretty stupid, but I think that has more of an impact than people think on drivers' performances. When you're happy, working with people you like being around, and having a good time, everything else kind of takes care of itself. This is relative--I think that even though some drivers 'connect' with their teams, others do so more than others and this is reflected in their performances (see Webber's downward spiral from 2010-2013). It plays on your conscience, even if only at a small level. I also think this is potentially why drivers seen as 'less-talented' hit that sweet spot where they just kick A-55 like it's no-one's business and become completely invincible on their day (see Button and Vettel in 2011 and 2013, respectively, as well as Raikkonen at Lotus before his fall-out with them when he was consistently beaten by Grosjean). It's a morale game, to more of an extent than I think most people realise.

I hate to make this about F1 when it was started about sportscars, because it really does extend to all forms of motorsport, but I find the most examples in F1 because it's the series I've followed the most closely over the past decade or so. I'm sure other people could point me to other examples in other series. With regards to the Audi #2 team in particular, I think they just work really well together, and that drives them to heights that others won't necessarily reach. Some drivers have niches, and they've clearly found theirs, which is not to say that they're not talented, as Lotterer was totally flying during the last few hours of the race this year. It's just chemistry, really: you get the right balance of talent, machinery, and camaraderie, and you get results. That's the way I see it, anyway--would not be surprised at all to see a few people show up with example that prove me completely wrong. :p

EDIT: To add to this, this is also why I see teammate comparisons as being a bit daft. If two drivers don't work well together and aren't performing in an environment where they feel they can do their best, then you're not really seeing the best of either of them, are you? As an example: if Vettel and Webber were in different teams but had equal cars, do you think their results over 2010-2013 would've been the same? What about Alonso and Hamilton in 2007? Teammate battles don't tell the whole story about what drivers can do at their best, in my opinion. Of course, it's legitimate to say that the way they'd handle adversity in a hostile atmosphere is also a measure of their worth, but in my opinion that doesn't matter because if I were hiring a driver I'd only be concerned with what he did at his best, as that'd be the atmosphere I'd intend my team to provide him. But I'm rambling almost completely off-topic now, lol.

Edited by Afterburner, 16 June 2014 - 16:00.


#7 Option1

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 16:08

I think your point about Lotterer is a good one Afterburner.  He was fast! 

 

Which leads me to think that maybe some are looking at it all from not quite the right angle.  Some of these guys are very talented, but either didn't have the money to climb the right ladder, didn't have the right management, didn't get the right breaks at the right time, or any other of probably an innumerable number or reasons why they didn't end up in what some consider to be the main show. 

 

In some ways the comparison with ex-F1 pilots may be worth a bit of a look.  Mika Salo, while never WDC potential was nonetheless no slouch in F1 either, had a great battle with Darren Turner (who? - I'm being slightly sarcastic) at le Mans.  I'm sure this wasn't the only ex-F1 driver vs. Sportscar-only driver battle during the race.

 

I often find it somewhat bemusing that the sportscar drivers seem to be so chronically under-rated.

 

Neil



#8 AlexLangheck

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 17:46

Most drivers who don't make it to F1 are underrated. As though it's the only place to be. There are lots of young drivers giving up single seaters and opting for GT/ Prototype cars.

As for the Audi #2, Lotterer is the fastest of them and has set some blistering times over the years - and still drives Formula Nippon in Japan for a Toyota/ Lexus team. Treluyer is also pretty quick and similarly has driven in Japan; and in Le Mans 2009 wrote off the Pescarolo-Peugeot 908. I don't think it's too unkind to say Fassler is the steady one of the trio - but if he wasn't any good Audi wouldn't use him. As already said, they all bring something to the team - and don't forget their engineer, Leena Gade.

#9 sopa

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 17:59

Endurance racing is quite a different discipline and requires some different skills than other forms of racing. Which means that even if some of these guys weren't particularly successful before joining Audi at LM, it doesn't mean they aren't good or very good at what they are doing now.

 

Look at Tom Kristensen. A Le Mans legend, but wasn't really fighting for the F3000 championship in single-seaters. He was good in DTM, but not spectacular. McNish was below average in his only F1 stint, but great in endurance racing. There are more and more examples.



#10 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 18:11

Uhm, Kristensen was good in F3000. He was excellent in everything except DTM actually.



#11 sopa

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 18:11

Most drivers who don't make it to F1 are underrated. As though it's the only place to be. There are lots of young drivers giving up single seaters and opting for GT/ Prototype cars.

 

It is often said that F1 is a racing drivers' dream, but during racing in feeder series many of these drivers realize that they are better-advised to re-adjust their career goals, because due to circumstances getting into F1 is a too heavy mountain to climb. DTM is a good example of that. There are plenty of drivers, who were pretty good at F3/WSR/GP2 level, but found that DTM is the best career-option to carry on with.

 

It is impossible for every good driver to make it into F1. And even then you can question the value of trundling around in a rubbish car at the back of F1, while you could get paid and drive in a prime seat in some touring/sportscar team. Those, who get good seats in different series, get paid for it, and get the opportunity to fight for wins, have really nothing to regret. It is a different life and world, which you can also enjoy.:)



#12 sopa

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 18:15

Uhm, Kristensen was good in F3000. He was excellent in everything except DTM actually.

 

Obviously he was good in F3000 as he was sixth in overall in both 1996-1997, but I don't think he was ever considered as a future star by F1 teams to get him snapped up, and he was already 29-30 years old, when he was racing in F3000.



#13 Imateria

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 18:18

It's been a long time since the Lotterer/Teluyer/Fassler squad was considered the young guns team, since that epic win in '11 they've shared top billing with the Kristensen/McNish/Duval/Di Grassi car, the #3 is the young guns team now.


In some ways the comparison with ex-F1 pilots may be worth a bit of a look.  Mika Salo, while never WDC potential was nonetheless no slouch in F1 either, had a great battle with Darren Turner (who? - I'm being slightly sarcastic) at le Mans.  I'm sure this wasn't the only ex-F1 driver vs. Sportscar-only driver battle during the race.

 

I often find it somewhat bemusing that the sportscar drivers seem to be so chronically under-rated.

 

Neil

That couldn't have been this year, Salo was driving the SMP ORECA Nissan, Turner has been a works Aston driver for ages now. And before that I think Salo left the AF Corse fold before Aston stepped back to GTE following the LMP1 failure.

 

Lotterer is a quality driver and was considered extremely fast in his F3 days, but was a victim of the mismanagement of the whole Jaguar single seater program following Paul Stewart stepping down for cancer treatment. He couldn't get backing to move on so went to Japan and carved out a strong career there, where Audi took notice for his F Nippon and Super GT drives. Treluyer might be missing that last tenth to Andre but is still very quick, he spent his junior time in cars that weren't quite up to it before going to Japan to carve out a career. He was very fast in the Pescarolo Peugeot 908 in 2009 until his mamoth shunt at the bottom of the essess during the night. Loic Duval took the same root as them through Japan as well before getting Peugeot's attention. 

 

I'm willing to bet that the top guys in Sportscars are capable of giving the top F1 drivers a run for their money in equal machinery, whether they're prototypes or 2CV's.



#14 Imateria

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 18:21

Obviously he was good in F3000 as he was sixth in overall in both 1996-1997, but I don't think he was ever considered as a future star by F1 teams to get him snapped up, and he was already 29-30 years old, when he was racing in F3000.

F3000 is a terrible measure of driving quality, to the point that several drivers actively avoided it (Schumacher certainly thought a Sauber Mercedes Group C car was a better use of his time).



#15 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 18:23

You're only going by points positions, he definitely had the speed and the race results. He just didn't have many finishes. And he was considered by several teams. He nearly got an Indycar drive at one point.



#16 muramasa

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 18:37

I know Lotterer, Treluyer and Duval very well and all I can say is they do stand out. I'm glad they do well and are recognized internationally, partly because it proves the level of Japanese racing series. Japanese series are nearly non-existence for most fans, but it seems those teams in europe actually pay attention to it. I've seen some even mocking them for racing for so long in Japan, so I'm very happy for their successes and appreciate their commitment and faith in Japan series even though that might not be their primary and desired career choice.

 

Japanese series have produced many excellent non-japanese drivers if not absolute top drivers. PDLR, Ralf Schu, Salo, Irvine, Kristensen, etc all raced in Japan with success. Drivers like Sutil, Jacques Villeneuve, Ericsson raced/won Japan F3. Also is home for familiar names like Dumbreck, Firman, Karthikeyan, Krumm and so on. So kudos to Japanese managers or organizers or whoever in charge of spotting those talents and giving chances to them.

As for Japanese drivers, Motoyama was such an excellent driver. Shame he wasnt given chance to shine at LeMans when he was younger or even F1. Tsugio Matsuda was very fast in Silverstone WEC LMP2 this year. Many of other Japanese drivers should do well, like Yamamoto, Kunimoto, Tsukagoshi, Hirakawa, Sekiguchi, to name a few.



#17 sopa

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 18:40

You're only going by points positions, he definitely had the speed and the race results. He just didn't have many finishes. And he was considered by several teams. He nearly got an Indycar drive at one point.

 

Ok then.

I guess age was one of the factors, which prevented him from developing his career further in single-seater circles. In terms of getting a seat on merit instead of paying for it, as I don't think he had the money.



#18 Option1

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 18:41

...

That couldn't have been this year, Salo was driving the SMP ORECA Nissan, Turner has been a works Aston driver for ages now. And before that I think Salo left the AF Corse fold before Aston stepped back to GTE following the LMP1 failure.

...

Sorry, you're quite right.  I was thinking of Fisi vs Turner. 

 

Neil



#19 jcbc3

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 19:05

Sopa


TomK is one of the very few people to have won two national F3 championships. First he won the German which was very high quality and later the Japanese. His basic speed should not be in doubt. Now, he's turned 46 he has slowed a tiny bit but he is steady as a rock.

Edited by jcbc3, 16 June 2014 - 19:06.


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#20 HaydenFan

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 19:09

Uhm, Kristensen was good in F3000. He was excellent in everything except DTM actually.

 

You're only going by points positions, he definitely had the speed and the race results. He just didn't have many finishes. And he was considered by several teams. He nearly got an Indycar drive at one point.

 

His DTM run wasn't bad. 4 wins and was a consistent podium contender in '05 and '06. Career in DTM (and overall) slowed a bit after his crash at Hockenheim. 

 

Seeing as Carpentier ended up with backing from Player's and moved to Forsythe a year later, not sure how far he would have gotten in CART with Betternhausen. And how Helio Castroneves' career was effected by that also (who took the seat after Carpentier left). 

 

Back to the Audi team. Like someone mentioned, how much does the driver really have a say in the results? I think a consistent driver lineup is key (seen by the 3 combo of the current and the past Audi domination of Kristensen, Pirro, and Biela), but the collective past of the drivers has shown to not be much importance. Look at the current Toyota lineups. Couple of former F1 drivers (and good F1 drivers) in each car, yet a Le Mans win hasn't happened (been close with runner up the last two years though). 



#21 noikeee

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 19:20

Guys that get to F1 are generally the best in the world, who peaked at the right time, from a slightly bigger talent pool. I don't think it's entirely surprising that the guys that were just behind them in that talent pool, and went to endurance racing to specialize themselves on that still in their twenties, become the best in the world in endurance racing.

 

Also a lot of the F1 drivers stood out from that crowd and made a name for themselves because they had a crazy desire to win - that "hunger" factor, taking huge risks, attempting overtaking in places others wouldn't dare etc. That's the kind of qualities you don't want in endurance - you just want a steady safe pair of hands that gets a decent average laptime and gets the car to the finish line (although in recent years endurance racing has become so competitive that the guys who manage to win more time by taking risks in lapping other cars have become valuable).

 

It's entirely logical that the typical Le Mans front-runner is a former GP2/F3000/WSR/Formula Nippon upper midfielder, unspectacular, occasional race winner. Lucas di Grassi is exactly where you'd expect him to be if you watched him in his GP2 years - always steady and reliable, only lacking those last 2 or 3 tenths, always unspectacular. No wonder he became a factory Audi driver.


Edited by noikeee, 16 June 2014 - 19:22.


#22 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 19:24

di Grassi is the kind of guy you'd think would have 9 Le Mans wins.



#23 noikeee

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 19:28

di Grassi is the kind of guy you'd think would have 9 Le Mans wins.

 

He's a bit young for that.  :p Also, Will Buxton once wrote he thinks di Grassi is going to become a future Brazilian president, so a potential political career might cut into amount of Le Mans wins.  :p



#24 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 19:58

That probably means it won't happen.



#25 Imateria

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 20:59

There's some right rubbish going on in here. Audi pretty quickly turned Le Mans into a long distance sprint with the R8 over ten years ago, it got to the point were a slow or merely solid driver could cost a team a win or podium place very quickly. Look at Le Mans 2011, Marcel Fassler and Pedro Lamy both had a bad time where for whatever reason they were consistently a second or so slower than their superstar team mates, and were benched by midnight. Treluyer/Lotterer vs Bourdai/Pagenaud was a 12 hour bare knuckle fight of epic proportions. Lacking that last extra bit of speed can cost a team a lot of time over a triple stint and can drop them out of contention for the win in a straight fight or leave them too far behind to take advantage of any problems the opposition might have. Make no mistake, anything less than Alonso like relentlessness is not welcome in sportscar racing anymore.

 

I think 2008 is the perfect example, after Peugeot lost the 3 big enduro's and the ILMC to Audi due to driver error and Villeneuve being crap at night, Olivier Quesnel was asked what he needed to win, his answer was Allan McNish.



#26 sopa

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 21:23

 

I really wish one day to have a driver line up of Alonso, Raikkonen and Lewis at Le Mans. 

 

And if such line-up showed up, I wonder how would they go? It is all too easy to say that "oh look they are F1 stars and the WEC stars are former GP2/F3 or at best F1 midfielders", but now at Le Mans... this is a very different kettle of fish. Not 1.5 hours sprint in F1 cars, but ~8 hours during a 24h period... in vastly different cars. Wonder, how would they compare? Can we expect them to do any better than the current LM stars at all? Because we have seen former F1 stars going to DTM and not doing all that well.

 

By the way, how were Webber's laptimes compared to his peers at LM? I haven't checked it in more detail.

 

Oh, and another thing. One thing is LM 24hour race. Another aspect for example a 6-hour endurance race, which we also have in WEC calendar. How do drivers perform there? Is there any notable difference in adapting to the length of races, i.e some drivers are more competitive at LM24 than a 6-hour "endurance sprint" and vice versa?

Someone maybe can add more insight to this.



#27 noikeee

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 22:09

There's some right rubbish going on in here. Audi pretty quickly turned Le Mans into a long distance sprint with the R8 over ten years ago, it got to the point were a slow or merely solid driver could cost a team a win or podium place very quickly. Look at Le Mans 2011, Marcel Fassler and Pedro Lamy both had a bad time where for whatever reason they were consistently a second or so slower than their superstar team mates, and were benched by midnight. Treluyer/Lotterer vs Bourdai/Pagenaud was a 12 hour bare knuckle fight of epic proportions. Lacking that last extra bit of speed can cost a team a lot of time over a triple stint and can drop them out of contention for the win in a straight fight or leave them too far behind to take advantage of any problems the opposition might have. Make no mistake, anything less than Alonso like relentlessness is not welcome in sportscar racing anymore.

 

I think 2008 is the perfect example, after Peugeot lost the 3 big enduro's and the ILMC to Audi due to driver error and Villeneuve being crap at night, Olivier Quesnel was asked what he needed to win, his answer was Allan McNish.

 

Maybe my posts came off as if these guys are slow, or that their speed doesn't matter at all. That's not true. What I'm saying is that these guys (the Treluyer's, Lotterer's etc) were a couple tenths off the Alonsos of this world when their single seater careers were cut off short. That's still ridiculously faster than what any mere mortal would be capable of. Add to that the fact they've been specializing themselves in these cars, and they not only become the best in the world in these cars, but also probably better than if an Alonso suddenly showed up without experience of these things and this kind of racing.

 

But surely it's undeniable that whilst speed and ability to reach the finish line are two things that are necessary in any kinds of racing, the importance of not making mistakes becomes bigger and bigger the longer the race is? I mean I'm pretty convinced Raikkonen would be **** at this, he's good at F1 but has quite the tendency to have random lapses of concentration and get bored. Or Maldonado - he won a F1 race, would he ever win Le Mans? Dear god please don't ever let him get into those cars.  :lol:  You need cooperation between drivers too, in terms of setup compromises between the 3 of them etc - typically F1 stars are big egos which don't quite fully understand "cooperation". Lack of that huge ego could be a good reason why some of the Le Mans guys didn't make F1 or weren't great at it - it's connected to the ability to exploit that little extra bit of unfair advantage etc.



#28 OvDrone

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 22:31

The competitive level of this seemingly reborn Le Mans era is downright impressive. The machinery and the drives are top tier level. All four categories.

 

The #2 crew, Duval, Sarrazin, Gene, Hartley, Dumas, Lieb, Jani, Bernhard, Davidson, Buemi, Wurz, Lapierre, all look top tier. Professional, ballsy, good racers. Bloody hell - even Nakajima looks good. di Grassi seems a little error-prone and rough around the edges though.

 

They're not in F1, so what? Is Chilton above 'em? **** no. They deserve their place at the enduro-sharpend. There are great drivers doing WEC, Indy, WRC, Nascar, DTM, even some dudes here and there in the touring/gt/us sportscar category. F1 is not the 'best 22 drivers on the planet' gig, that Brundle goes on and on about.

 

More power to the WEC. May it live long and prosper.


Edited by OvDrone, 16 June 2014 - 22:32.


#29 Imateria

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 23:18

Maybe my posts came off as if these guys are slow, or that their speed doesn't matter at all. That's not true. What I'm saying is that these guys (the Treluyer's, Lotterer's etc) were a couple tenths off the Alonsos of this world when their single seater careers were cut off short. That's still ridiculously faster than what any mere mortal would be capable of. Add to that the fact they've been specializing themselves in these cars, and they not only become the best in the world in these cars, but also probably better than if an Alonso suddenly showed up without experience of these things and this kind of racing.

 

But surely it's undeniable that whilst speed and ability to reach the finish line are two things that are necessary in any kinds of racing, the importance of not making mistakes becomes bigger and bigger the longer the race is? I mean I'm pretty convinced Raikkonen would be **** at this, he's good at F1 but has quite the tendency to have random lapses of concentration and get bored. Or Maldonado - he won a F1 race, would he ever win Le Mans? Dear god please don't ever let him get into those cars.  :lol:  You need cooperation between drivers too, in terms of setup compromises between the 3 of them etc - typically F1 stars are big egos which don't quite fully understand "cooperation". Lack of that huge ego could be a good reason why some of the Le Mans guys didn't make F1 or weren't great at it - it's connected to the ability to exploit that little extra bit of unfair advantage etc.

If you take the best drivers in Prototypes, GT's, Touring Cars, IRL, even NASCAR (lets not include the WRC, as talented as they are the discipline's are a bit too different to make a straight comparison) I think we'd find them coming very close to matching the Hamilton's and Alonso's if not quite there, but then there are very, very few drivers in any generation that are on that level. To me that puts them on the level with Button, Hulkenberg, Raikkonen, Rosberg type of guys, extremely capable drivers that can hold their own and stack up nicely against the greats, if not regularly beat them. As pointed out, the "best 22 drivers in the world" talk doesnt really hold up under scrutiny and I'd say the best sportscar drivers are better than a good chunk of the F1 field.

 

Raikkonen's supper consistent so I think he'd actually be pretty good at Le Mans and would probably enjoy having to drive flat out for 3 hours straight at 210mph. Maldonado would be a potential liability. Ego adjustment is definitely something single seater drivers would have to go through but I think the really intelligent ones would very quickly understand that adapting to make a car that's fast not just for you but your co drivers as well is at the heart of victory, to me that's the kind of forward thinking that would mark out a very capable driver to begin with, in the same way that everyone remarks on how intelligent Alonso and Vettel are. 

 

And if such line-up showed up, I wonder how would they go? It is all too easy to say that "oh look they are F1 stars and the WEC stars are former GP2/F3 or at best F1 midfielders", but now at Le Mans... this is a very different kettle of fish. Not 1.5 hours sprint in F1 cars, but ~8 hours during a 24h period... in vastly different cars. Wonder, how would they compare? Can we expect them to do any better than the current LM stars at all? Because we have seen former F1 stars going to DTM and not doing all that well.

 

By the way, how were Webber's laptimes compared to his peers at LM? I haven't checked it in more detail.

 

Oh, and another thing. One thing is LM 24hour race. Another aspect for example a 6-hour endurance race, which we also have in WEC calendar. How do drivers perform there? Is there any notable difference in adapting to the length of races, i.e some drivers are more competitive at LM24 than a 6-hour "endurance sprint" and vice versa?

Someone maybe can add more insight to this.

 

Webber didn't seem to do too well during Wednesday and Thursday practice and qualifying but matched his co drivers Bernhard and Hartley during the race, though unfortunately by the time he got in the car it had developed a handling and battery fault that was costing them upwards of 5 seconds per lap.

 

As for the 6 hour races it's not really any different, just that each driver only expects to do one stint rather than 3-4. You'd think that they're expected to push even harder, given that it's a shorter race and you have less time to make up for problems, but they're already expected to drive at maximum as it is anyway. I think the biggest difference is the set up of the car, you don't have to worry about a car being able to deal with the heat of the afternoon and the early morning cold at the same time.



#30 George Costanza

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 04:06

If I am honest, I don't think they are that special or in particular top notch compared to other drivers. Seems like they are a victim of circumstance, circumstance of being provided right equipment in one of the best endurance teams since Porsche.

 

You could have faster drivers in that car but overall if the chemistry isn't there and they are unable to work together, then there's no chance of even fighting for a victory.

 

I really wish one day to have a driver line up of Alonso, Raikkonen and Lewis at Le Mans. 

 

I don't think that will ever happen...

 

I could see... Massa/Trulli/Fischella some day at Le Mans (Fisichella obviously won).



#31 PNSD

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 10:32

For Le Man especially there is more to a driver than just pure speed. These guys are all very good, but it would be wrong to think Kimi/Alonso/Lewis could walk in and be better because I believe that wouldn't be the case.



#32 Brother Fox

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 02:55

For the love of god, someone correct the thread title!!!!

#33 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 06:10

Which leads me to think that maybe some are looking at it all from not quite the right angle.  Some of these guys are very talented, but either didn't have the money to climb the right ladder, didn't have the right management, didn't get the right breaks at the right time, or any other of probably an innumerable number or reasons why they didn't end up in what some consider to be the main show. 

 

I often find it somewhat bemusing that the sportscar drivers seem to be so chronically under-rated.

 

For example Will Power didn't do all that much in Europe, till he planted his seat in a Champcar and has proved to be fairly (or more) competent (if incapable of sealing a championship).   :)



#34 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 06:12

If you take the best drivers in Prototypes, GT's, Touring Cars, IRL, even NASCAR (lets not include the WRC, as talented as they are the discipline's are a bit too different to make a straight comparison) I think we'd find them coming very close to matching the Hamilton's and Alonso's if not quite there,...

 

 

Really?  McNish was decisively average in F1...  I think we can say that different disciplines are different disciplines (obviously) and require different skills and talents to be excellent.  Even if all these drivers possess the basics of car control skills.



#35 Nemo1965

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 06:37

Really?  McNish was decisively average in F1...  I think we can say that different disciplines are different disciplines (obviously) and require different skills and talents to be excellent.  Even if all these drivers possess the basics of car control skills.

 

Very good. In two sentences you've written what I wanted to add. Saves me the trouble...



#36 Sash1

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 06:59

I guess you'd want guys in your car who:
- are about the same size; no time loss with driver changes and problems with car control because of different gas pedal or steering wheel positions

- are team players

- understand the mechanical side of the car, who can feel that something is going wrong with parts and who can adjust their driving to that problem (Jan Lammers TWR Silk Cut Jaguar's gearbox was broken for the last part of the race but they all could use it in such a way that it survived and they won the race)

- who can give excellent feedback to the mechanics

- can run consistent fast lap times without breaking the car

- can accept that one of them is fastest and is the leading man to set the qualification time (no ego problems)

- are good in traffic (good reflexes, strategic insight, make good split second decisions)

- have no problems with driving in the night

- are good in the wet too

- have excellent track knowledge

- in the case of emergency can work a bit on the car when it is parked next to the track

- might be willing to push a car to the pits for 1000m or so

- listen to the boss

- can be fast without destroying the tires, gearbox or brakes in a few hours



#37 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 11:09

I wouldn't say the top guys in other series are at Alonso/Hamilton level, but they're interchangable with most of the rest of the grid. The absolute knock-your-socks-off drivers do get to F1.



#38 HaydenFan

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 13:00

I wouldn't say the top guys in other series are at Alonso/Hamilton level, but they're interchangable with most of the rest of the grid. The absolute knock-your-socks-off drivers do get to F1.

 

Well, could Kimi go to IndyCar (closest series to F1 that isn't considered a feeder series), and do a Mansell? 

 

Do the knock-your-socks-off drivers all get to F1? Based on Marco Andretti's rookie season in IndyCar, I'd have guess he'd have taken 20-30 wins in that series by now. Or scored a championship in a year or two in the series and gone to F1. Was (like Briscoe) blisteringly quick on the road/street circuits. Very raw, but I'd think he could have tuned it down a bit (not the huge bit he did), and dominated. Was a bit like a motorcycle racer who crashes a lot. Might be a quick rider, but didn't get far because he crashed a lot early in his career. 



#39 Imateria

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 16:24

Really?  McNish was decisively average in F1...  I think we can say that different disciplines are different disciplines (obviously) and require different skills and talents to be excellent.  Even if all these drivers possess the basics of car control skills.

And your basing that on a single season in the new Toyota team? Yes, he was regularly outqualified by Salo (a good if unspectacular driver himself) but usually by less than a tenth and much of that can be put down to his unfamiliarity with the type of car and, particularly, the tyre war tyres. Besides, it's common knowledge that Toyota dropped the pair for commercial reasons more than anything.

 

I don't think different disciplines need different skills and techniques, they each require a different adaptation and application of what amounts to the same skill set that every driver needs to be successful and when a driver does jump discipline they should be given a reasonable amount of time to make adapt to the specific demands of their new discipline and equipment. Remember it took Alonso and Kubica a large portion of 2007 to adapt to the different demands of Bridgestone tyres to the Michelins they were running before hand, and that's just changing the tyres!   



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#40 BRG

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 20:02

For the love of god, someone correct the thread title!!!!

The drivers of ALDi # 2?   

 

Just my Lidl joke.


Edited by BRG, 18 June 2014 - 20:04.


#41 Afterburner

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:41

For the love of god, someone correct the thread title!!!!

As one of the most pedantic/OCD people here, it took everything I had to not point this out in my above post. Thank you. :p

#42 Brother Fox

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:47

It just hurts my brain every time I see it

#43 Brazzers

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 08:25

Past F1 drivers that completed in Le Mans were generally average in Formula 1. If it was Alonso/Hamilton in that Audi and baring any problems I think they would be the guys to beat. Andre is fast but he isn't Lewis fast in my eyes. 



#44 Imateria

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 12:06

I wouldn't call Graham Hill, Dan Gurney or Stirling Moss average.

 

And maybe that's true, but true greats like Alonso and Hamilton don't come around often.


Edited by Imateria, 19 June 2014 - 12:08.


#45 Option1

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 13:34

Hamilton a true great?  Compared to Hill, Moss, et al.  Must be a new definition of great that hasn't yet appeared in any dictionary.

 

It's also nonensical that any of the current F1 drivers would waltz into le Mans and immediately start winning.  For a start, it's VERY car dependent.

 

Neil



#46 Imateria

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 16:32

^What form of motosport isnt?