47 replies to this topic

[toolish]

Dear all, I'm sorry if this topic has been covered in the forum - in any case, I couldn't find it - but as I searched the internet in vain for information on the whereabouts of the cars Ayrton Senna drove during his racing carreer, and a visit to the Donington museum was a little bit disappointing in that regard (only the MP4/5B remained in 2012) I'm turning to you guys. Does anyone know where those Lotuses and McLarens are? (And I'm talking about the real deal, not the show cars.) Thanks for any info you'd like to share!

[jimjimjeroo]

As far as I am aware, any McLarens are in the McLaren collection at Paragon.

[Richard Jenkins]

A lot of the McLaren cars, I believe, are at McLaren HQ, Woking. Not sure exactly how many and which ones but I think they have the title winning ones there.

[Peter Morley]

Senna raced:
6 different Tolemans
12 different Lotuses
31 different McLarens
1 Williams - plus the car he tested early in his career.

McLaren (Ron Dennis era) have kept most of their cars (and sometimes lend them to museums etc.), but there was a 'set' that ended up with Aaron Hsu who sold a couple of them and a couple of cars that ended up with suppliers (e.g. Honda have an MP4/4 that won 4 GPs amongst others) etc.
One of the Aaron Hsu Senna McLarens is in a private Dutch collection together with a McLaren Peugeot.

The Lotuses are with people like Classic Team Lotus, Dawn Treader performance & Kumschick racing and as with the Tolemans sometimes appear at demonstrations such as Goodwood.

[SophieB]

One of them was turned over to an artist by Ron to be turned into a piece of art. It came up for auction a few years ago:
http://www.classicca...on-as-art-piece

[Charlieman]

When I went to the Macau GP museum, Senna's RT3 (for that particular race) was presented as "the real thing". At other races, he drove other RT3s. There must also be a few Van Diemens which were driven by Senna when his favourite was unavailable.

 

Tracking the cars driven by Ayrton Senna is an interesting exercise, but you have to be highly motivated. Senna drove many cars in junior formulae and probably more in Formula 1. And there are so many people who profess that a car is ex-Senna.

[funformula]

One of them was turned over to an artist by Ron to be turned into a piece of art. It came up for auction a few years ago:
http://www.classicca...on-as-art-piece

 

Well, this is more a collection of various bodywork rather than a race car. No monocoque was used in the creation of this artwork.

[wepmob2000]

There used to be fantastic collection of ex-Senna McLaren's at Donington, albeit I haven't been there since 2010. Does this mean their superb McLaren display has been somewhat reduced?

[arttidesco]

Yes, I believe Kevin Wheatcroft's interest are more directed towards WW2 fighting vehicles, many of which are the size of a small house.

[wepmob2000]

When I was there last, there was a definite increase in the number of large German military vehicles, which are extremely interesting, but it would be sad if the world's greatest collection of F1 cars declines :-(

[max1010]

Hi,  at least one of Senna's cars is in the Foyer of McLaren HQ.   I was privileged to see it on a couple of occasions when visiting the centre.  My ex husband and son in law worked for McLaren.  They built the road car so, during the family days organised by the Company, we were allowed to roam around the 'hallowed' ground.   It was quite something to see it along side several more lined up in the entrance of the building from all of the great drivers over the years.   I did actually touch it but wasn't supposed to ..... oops ....

[Derwent Motorsport]

One of the Van Deimen FFs is owned by Vernon Williamson and come outs from time to time.

One of the Tolemans sat in a village garage here in north Cumbria for many years. The story was that the garage owner used to work for Nick Mason and "retired" up here but was restoring the car in his spare time. He was quite evasive about the car and did not encourage viewers. The car seemd to go (at least from sight) some years ago.

[Emery0323]

A lot of the McLaren cars, I believe, are at McLaren HQ, Woking. Not sure exactly how many and which ones but I think they have the title winning ones there.

Here's a video from a few years ago that shows Hamilton and Button looking over old McLarens in a warehouse. 

Presumably the setting and the cars are real?  It seems like it would have been too much work to "stage" replicas in a storage area like this:

[Vitesse2]

Yes, that was originally shown on SkySports F1. IIRC the warehouse is actually part of the McLaren Tech Centre at Woking. That's only part of it - there were scenes showing the parts areas as well. Everything shrinkwrapped or under polythene. All very Ron.

[MLC]

One of Senna's Lotus 98T cars was in the lobby of Harley Cluxton's GTC shop in Scottsdale, AZ in the mid-1990s. I stopped by one day after leaving class and the receptionist was happy to let me look around the lobby and the shop. I stopped by again last year (they have since moved to another location in Scottsdale) and it was no longer there. Since Cluxton deals in vintage race cars, I assume the car was sold long ago. 

 

I just realized that I didn't answer your question and have provided no information as to the current whereabouts of Senna's cars.  

[Garsted]

Zak Brown's United Autosports have the Lotus now

 

http://united-autosp...ric-collection/

 

Steve

[PayasYouRace]

There's an MP4/6 at the Brooklands museum with Senna's name and number on it. Don't know if it is actually a chassis he raced. I also remember there being an MP4/4 at the Beaulieu museum.

[reynard883]

I think there are as many ex Senna Ralt RT3's as there are Lotus Cortinas

[mfd]

The McLarens that Hsu sold were not Senna cars. They (two) were Cossie engined  Lauda/Watson cars

Edited by mfd, 19 June 2014 - 11:49.

[Gary C]

The McLaren at Brooklands is most certainly a mere show car, nothing more.

[Mallory Dan]

I think there are as many ex Senna Ralt RT3's as there are Lotus Cortinas

He crashed and destroyed many of 'em as I recall...

[Mistron]

Not a racing car, but a pla of mine owns a Mercedes estate (can't recal the model, sorry) I think it's Brabus tuned and completely black (no chrome trim) as I remember, and which it is alleged, belonged to Senna. He's still looking for the photo evidence though.......

 

Al

[Cargo]

a thread about Senna's Toleman here...

 

http://forums.autosp...leman-for-sale/

 

It didn't make the reserve. So I presume it remains unsold. I don't know.

[Peter Morley]

The McLarens that Hsu sold were not Senna cars. They (two) were Cossie engined  Lauda/Watson cars

The Dutchman certainly has a Senna McLaren as well as some of Hsu's Williamses.

Wasn't the Drendel McLaren Porsche (MP4/3-1) also one of Hsu's?

[mfd]

The Drendel car was indeed. 

[Patrick Morgan]

Senna raced:
6 different Tolemans
12 different Lotuses
31 different McLarens
1 Williams - plus the car he tested early in his career.

 

 

Hi Peter,

 

Do you think it was 12 Lotuses? Certainly in 1986 he used chassis 01 as his qualifier though the season but didn't race it. He started out the season with chassis 03 and did the second half with 04. I'd be surprised if he raced more than 6 or 7 chassis over his 3 year stint but would be interested if you have a further insight. I should go and look out the Senna Lotus Years book I guess....

[PayasYouRace]

I don't know how accurate Forix can be on it's chassis records, but for Senna's Lotuses.

 

97T: 2 (7 races, shared with de Angelis) and 4 (10 races).

98T: 3 (13 races) and 4 (3 races).

99T: 4 (13 races) and 6 ( races).

 

I guess it only counts races though?

[Patrick Morgan]

I don't know how accurate Forix can be on it's chassis records, but for Senna's Lotuses.

 

97T: 2 (7 races, shared with de Angelis) and 4 (10 races).

98T: 3 (13 races) and 4 (3 races).

99T: 4 (13 races) and 6 ( races).

 

I guess it only counts races though?

 

Not very accurate I'm afraid, I'm not sure where these came from originally. 98T 04 did the latter 8 races of 1986.

 

See https://customers.dt...etition_history compiled from the original run sheets. I can't comment on the other stats, they may well be correct. 

[Peter Morley]

Hi Peter,
 
Do you think it was 12 Lotuses? Certainly in 1986 he used chassis 01 as his qualifier though the season but didn't race it. He started out the season with chassis 03 and did the second half with 04. I'd be surprised if he raced more than 6 or 7 chassis over his 3 year stint but would be interested if you have a further insight. I should go and look out the Senna Lotus Years book I guess....

Hi Patrick

 

We were surprised how many cars were on the list!
I've got the following list, as you say some of the cars were practice only since it was the days of the qualifying car:

97T-1
Portugal 1985 (practice – 1st pole)

 

97T-2
Brazil 1985, Portugal 1985 (1st), San Marino (7th), Monaco 1985, Belgian 1985 (race cancelled), Canada 1985 (16th), British 1985 (practice), Austrian 1985 (practice), Dutch 1985 (practice), Italian 1985 (practice), South Africa 1985 (practice), Australia 1985 (practice)

 

97T-3
Detroit 1985,

 

97T-4
Monaco 1985 (practice), Canada 1985 (practice), France 1985, British 1985 (10th), German 1985, Austrian 1985 (2nd), Dutch 1985 (3rd), Italian 1985 (3rd), Belgian 1985 (1st), European 1985 (2nd), South Africa 1985, Australia 1985

 

98T-1
Brazil 1986 (practice), Spain 1986 (practice), San Marino 1986 (practice), Monaco 1986 (practice), Belgian 1986 (practice), Canada 1986 (practice), Detroit 1986 (practice), France 1986 (practice), British 1986, German 1986 (practice), Italian 1986 (practice), Portuguese 1986 (practice), Australia 1986 (practice)

 

98T-3
Brazil 1986 (2nd), Spain 1986 (1st), San Marino 1986, Monaco 1986 (3rd), Belgian 1986 (2nd), Canada 1986 (5th), Detroit 1986 (1st), France 1986,

 

98T-4
British 1986 (practice), German 1986 (2nd), Hungarian 1986 (2nd), Austrian 1986, Italian 1986, Portuguese 1986 (4th), Mexico 1986 (3rd), Australia 1986

 

99T-2
Belgian 1987 (practice), Monaco 1987 (practice),

 

99T-3
Austria 1987 (practice), Italy 1987 (2nd), Portugal 1987 (7th),

 

99T-4
Brazil 1987, San Marino 1987 (2nd), Belgian 1987, Monaco 1987 (1st), Detroit 1987 (1st), France 1987 (4th), British 1987 (3rd), German 1987 (3rd), Spain 1987 (5th), Mexico 1987 (practice), Japan 1987 (practice)

 

99T-5
France 1987 (practice), German 1987 (practice), Hungary 1987 (2nd)

 

99T-6
Austria 1987 (5th), Mexico 1987, Japan 1987 (2nd), Australia 1987 (disqualified)

[Patrick Morgan]

Wow, he certainly made the most of the 99T fleet! 

 

I need to check my notes as I have 98T 04 down as the British GP race car. Not that it's going to bother me as it didn't do terribly well in that race. Nice to know one way or the other though (and good to spot a mistake if I've made one). 

[mfd]

I think it's easier to work out the chassis Nakajima drove

[Patrick Morgan]

Looks like you are quite right Peter - the summary that came with the car (which I did verify some years ago) says Brands GP and the run sheets and setup sheets define is as the Brands GP car however there is no run sheet for the GP itself. It certainly did warmup and if I can read the handwriting (presumably Steve Hallam's) correctly there is mention of a misfire. 

 

You learn something every day. I guess when time allows I'll check the rest again. For now tea break is over...! 

[Peter Morley]

Patrick

I'm glad that my list matches yours, hopefully all the others are correct as well.

It's surprising how many cars one driver used in those days, especially compared to now when they spend so much more money and might only use 1 or 2 cars in a season.

Hopefully you got stuck into the Connaught after your tea-break!

Peter

[Patrick Morgan]

Patrick

I'm glad that my list matches yours, hopefully all the others are correct as well.

It's surprising how many cars one driver used in those days, especially compared to now when they spend so much more money and might only use 1 or 2 cars in a season.

Hopefully you got stuck into the Connaught after your tea-break!

Peter

 

I'm still practicing before I get started on that car..... I desperately want to keep it looking it's age.

[Patrick Morgan]

James Ward at CWP did a studio shoot with 98T 04 a couple of weeks ago, this is the first shot I've had back.

 

Lotus 98T Side Profile by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

[LordAston]

What about the Porsche 956 and Mercedes 190E?

Edited by LordAston, 22 June 2014 - 11:00.

[kayemod]

What about the Porsche 956 and Mercedes 190E?

 

The 190E 2.3/16 is in Stuttgart in the Mercedes museum, it's either the original car that punted Prost off to win, or a replica, and I don't think that MB do replicas.

[paulsenna1]

What about the Porsche 956 and Mercedes 190E?

And the Talbot Sunbeam from '81.

[mfd]

The 956 #104 is in Germany with Alexander Siebold

[LordAston]

And the Talbot Sunbeam from '81.

Whoops. Forgot that. What about the Indycar test and his dirty weekend with the rally cars.

[nmansellfan]

Patrick, thats a great photo of 98T 04!

 

I hope it's ok if I use it as a desktop wallpaper.  When I was a boy, the 98T and FW11 were my idea of the perfect racing car.

[DavidI]

James Ward at CWP did a studio shoot with 98T 04 a couple of weeks ago, this is the first shot I've had back.

 

Lotus 98T Side Profile by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

 

 

Patrick, thats a great photo of 98T 04!

 

I hope it's ok if I use it as a desktop wallpaper.  When I was a boy, the 98T and FW11 were my idea of the perfect racing car.

Whilst never a Senna fan, and being primarily interested in cars of an earlier generation, I have to say the 98T has always caught my attention; not sure if it's the proportions, the styling, whatever, it just looks "right."

[Michael Ferner]

The Ducarouge Lotuses were lovely machines... especially in black!

[BRG]

Quite a few of them seem to be at Goodwood just now.

[arttidesco]

The 190E 2.3/16 is in Stuttgart in the Mercedes museum, it's either the original car that punted Prost off to win, or a replica, and I don't think that MB do replicas.

 

 

.... unless they are done properly in house of course

[arttidesco]

Quite a few of them seem to be at Goodwood just now.

 

 

One of which appears to have been the #11 190 E ....

 

 

... unless it also was a recreation like the Tilp / O'Shea era 300 SLS driven at Goodwood by Indy legend and former DTM driver Dario Franchitti

[SPBHM]

there is one car at the Instituto Ayrton Senna (15th floor of a building)

https://www.flickr.c...in/photostream/

 

his sister tells the car came from a a bet with Ron Dennis regarding winning the 1990 Italian GP, not sure if it's a car used for that race or a replica show car!?

Edited by SPBHM, 09 July 2014 - 17:37.

[mfd]

It's real, I remember seeing it wrapped up at McLaren ready to ship many years ago

Edited by mfd, 09 July 2014 - 18:39.