186 replies to this topic

[Zava]

according to Tobi:

 

Tobias Grüner F1 ‏@tgruener  34m  

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#F1 New rule for 2015: There will be a standing start after all Safety-Car caution periods. AMuS story (in German): http://ams.to/DD 

 

 

what a stupid idea. as if SC periods were not already bad for those who were ahead by making them lose the gap they built, now they throw in an even bigger chance of people losing places undeservedly because of a SC period (as you can lose places much easier at a standing start than at a flying one). it feels a bit like the idiotic last stage rule of WRC, where you can lose by being a tad slower on the last stage, even though you were leading by multiple minutes.

 

 

if they wanted to change on the SC rules, why couldn't they go in the correct direction, why couldn't they implement a version where in case of an accident, everyone is limited to a certain speed at the same time by RC, this way everyone goes slow, the gaps remain as they were? 

oh wait, I forgot it is a showbiz, and not supposed to be sport...

 

 

edit: in case anyone is interested, here is the autosport article, including words like 'spectacle' and 'drama'.

Edited by Zava, 20 June 2014 - 07:22.

[Sash1]

At first I thought it was a prank stupid idea from the other idea discussion (firework planks and double  megaphones). Seriously... standing starts.....

[Sash1]

They should get rid of the SC. The 60km/h zones at Le Mans were great, but I am told F1 thinks that is still too dangerous (compared to an SC that comes past @120km/h).

[beqa16v]

i wonder whether it will waste a lot of time imho. How many times will they have to start in a race like Monaco? It can be 2-3 restarts easily which is a huge stress on drivetrain components.

Edited by beqa16v, 20 June 2014 - 07:23.

[toofast]

world racing entertainment

[Exb]

I hate this idea, the safety car is to protect Track Marshalls or drivers that have had to stop - this just makes it totally about the 'show' - if they are going to do this then why not just stop the race instead of multiple laps behind the safety car?

 

And what about when it rains a bit too hard and they start them behind the safety car because a standing start would be too dangerous (was it Malaysia 2013 that last happened)

[ExFlagMan]

I guess it will allow the TV companies more time to slip in an advert break.

 

On a more serious note - why bother with waiting until the lapped cars have unlapped them selves before doing the standing start - just stop all the cars on a dummy grid - wave them onto the true grid in race order - hold back the lapped cars until they are in the right place - but I guess that would be too sensible a solution for F1

Edited by ExFlagMan, 20 June 2014 - 07:27.

[Exb]

I think the reason they don't just have a slow zone is so all the cars bunch up and it gives Marshalls a few minutes of clear track that they can work in.

[kraduk]

well the start of the race is often the most exciting part, so if you want more excitement then its a no brainer. Stress on the components is a lame excuse as the teams will cope as they always do. I do see one crash leading to another due to the restart though. What are the odds of  4 or more restarts over 20 laps or so, i wonder?

[SenorSjon]

If they want standing starts, just bin the SC and stop on the s/f line like they used to with a red flag. Only 20odd years ago, you could keep your gap, now it's gone.

[yasushi888]

Whoever is coming up with these ideas has waaaaay too much time on their hands... There's a new rule every week at the moment, It's as if this is a brand new sport and they are making the rules up as they go along, it's unbelievable...

[Zoony]

If they want standing starts, just bin the SC and stop on the s/f line like they used to with a red flag.

 

Hear, hear!

[TomNokoe]

So stupid. If we have tons of starts all of a sudden it simply detracts from the true special one - the damn start!!!!!! Imagine building up a 30 second gap and then being beaten off the line or punted off into T1

This is not sporting competition

[PayasYouRace]

I don't get it. Just red flag the race if you're going to do that.

 

SC should be to just keep things moving while an accident has happened, and bunch the cars up so marshals are safer. So just pick up the leader, let the cars bunch up, and when the track is clear, let them go. Simples.

[kosmos]

[Kristian]

well the start of the race is often the most exciting part, so if you want more excitement then its a no brainer. Stress on the components is a lame excuse as the teams will cope as they always do. I do see one crash leading to another due to the restart though. What are the odds of  4 or more restarts over 20 laps or so, i wonder?

 

But to be honest, how often do we have first corner/lap incidents that require safety cars these days? Not many...

Edited by Kristian, 20 June 2014 - 07:43.

[froggy22]

I swear being an F1 fan feels like it's April fools day every day. Ridiculous idea. But I hope this one will get shot down like many of the laughable ideas. Although double points......

[teejay]

pass.

[Tourgott]

 

I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

[jee]

Does this mean no more starts behind safety car for rain? 

[Otaku]

After the double points fiasco, nothing will surprise me anymore. F1 as a real gentlemen sport is long dead.

[pRy]

It strikes me as bizarre that a "safety" period will now end with a re-run of what is arguably the most dangerous part of any race.. another standing start. And this time on even colder tyres than the first one.

 

This line in particular sums up what is wrong with F1:

 

"The hope is that there will be more chance of positions changing, with the spectacle of a standing start producing more drama than rolling starts do."

 

So to encourage passing on the track and add "drama".. rather than fixing the various issues with the cars that hinder passing or perhaps banning pit to car radio to prevent teams micro managing drivers that hinders close battles developing.. instead they're going to have standing starts after safety car periods. Which in itself is pointless because whilst there is normally some passing as a result of a start it's typically condensed into the first lap so what this adds to the overall spectacle I've no clue. 

 

And does this all mean that there will be certain "pressure" on the race director to bring out the SC for minor incidents that perhaps wouldn't require one this year knowing this will "spice up the show"?

 

it just seems to me F1 or rather the teams are ignoring the blatant issues with current F1:

 

- There is too much micro management of drivers which prevents battles developing. "Hold position" "Let's back off for a while" "Save your tyres" "We need to save fuel" "You're taking turn 4 too slow, speed up there" "Your team mate is using this brake bias.. so use it also" . Pit to car radio needs to be removed from the sport.

 

- The aero stuff could still be improved to allow closer racing

 

- Races dominated by teams nursing home engines, fuel and tyres is rarely going to result in exciting battles

 

It actually wouldn't surprise me if Bernie originally wanted another re-start at 50% race distance included in every race.

Edited by pRy, 20 June 2014 - 07:56.

[Brawn BGP 001]

why not just make the show car redundant and show the red flag then, at least then we will get the six laps of racing saved from the lapped cars may overtake stupidity.

 

Think the SC is shown too much and I would like to see slow zones like in Le Mans used, much fairer system.

Edited by Brawn BGP 001, 20 June 2014 - 07:53.

[artista]

Aren't the guys suggesting this idea forgetting the standing start is, probably, the most dangerous moment of a race, when chances of a driver getting seriously injured (or worse) are highest?
I mean, I hope they are forgetting it and not considering it as a plus point of their "idea"

[Lotus53B]

I really don't understand this - are they going to circle pointlessly behind the safety car, then stop and start? If so, it's utterly ******** - if they're going to do standing starts, just stop on the grid, immediately. Red flags were meant for this. Lapped cars can stop in their pits lane, and start from the pit exit. This clears the track so that the marshalls etc can work, and it should make getting the race going a lot faster

[Bouncebackability]

And they wonder why TV audiences are declining, adding stupid gimmick after stupd gimmick.

 

Throw everything at the wall and see what sticks comes to mind.

[Andromeda]

I don't know what the point of this is.

 

Wouldn't this just be the same as deploying a red flag? If thats the case red flags should just be waved every time a safety car is needed. I'm not completely against this idea but it does sound somewhat redundant with the red flag.

[P123]

Is this one of Mama Mia Montezemolo's grand ideas?

When the F1 'brain' trust gets together they can be dangerous.

In a race with multiple SCs we'll never get going. There will likely be somebody cooking on the grid. More opportunities for first corner incidents (and subsequent SCs, and restarts..). And will they all find their way to the correct grid slot? Only takes one to throw others out of position. Maybe the idea is to knock the leader out of the race. How many cycles of sitting for over 1 minute on a grid can a car take? I'm sure the majority would be fine, but again it only takes one....

Edited by P123, 20 June 2014 - 07:58.

[KiloWatt]

Oh WTF.  Double points, magaphone exhausts, single friday practice (in the evening, no less), static restart.  And it's only June.  Are they trying to make some record for the most stupid ideas in a season?

 

They are alienating the hardcore fans by trying to please the casual fans.  Well, the casual fans will move on when something else comes by.  The hardcore fans are they ones that watch for decades.

 

F1 making a rod for it's own back.  Have been watching since I can remember, but I'm really starting to tire of this (no pun intended).

 

Edit:

Wait...wait....In the mean time, they want artificially add sparks!  I say stop pussyfooting around the issue.  Give them ****ing flames!  And machine gun noises when the DRS on the car behind opens.

Edited by KiloWatt, 20 June 2014 - 08:11.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

So basically it'll be a few laps behind the SC, a couple of laps waiting for lapped cars to overtake and catch up (why wait for them to catch up if it's going to be a standing start?) and then a restart. Why not just throw a red flag and give us extra racing laps rather than having cars driving round behind the SC in the way of the marshals etc just so they can restart? It seems completely backwards, unncecessary, and more dangerous.

[CoolBreeze]

Firstly, SC is important to F1, and needs to be in F1. I don't agree with starting races under SC, but the presence is crucial. 

 

Secondly, i think it's a great idea, because it will only add excitement. 

[AlainProstX]

[Disgrace]

The SC periods are already prolonged by bedwetter Whiting and the backmarkers going around the circuit again. Now we'll have a re-run of the grid formation before we can get racing again.

[Fourjays]

I really don't understand this - are they going to circle pointlessly behind the safety car, then stop and start? If so, it's utterly ******** - if they're going to do standing starts, just stop on the grid, immediately. Red flags were meant for this. Lapped cars can stop in their pits lane, and start from the pit exit. This clears the track so that the marshalls etc can work, and it should make getting the race going a lot faster

This (and all the others who said the same). If they are going to stop to do a standing start, why bother with the SC at all? All you achieve with it is to waste countless laps.

[TheRacingElf]

I seriously stop watching anytime soon, this is getting ridiculous!

[SenorSjon]

They want the last V8 to leave the track I guess.

 

I can only see broken clutches and 10 minutes of pre-start preps.

[blackhand2010]

Because, of course, SC periods are the biggest challenge facing F1 today...

[GSiebert]

Just when you thought they couldn't make it more ridiculous with the fake sparks ... BOOM.

[tomjol]

 

Perfect.

 

Stop the "spicing up the show" already!

[ClubmanGT]

So basically it'll be a few laps behind the SC, a couple of laps waiting for lapped cars to overtake and catch up (why wait for them to catch up if it's going to be a standing start?) and then a restart. Why not just throw a red flag and give us extra racing laps rather than having cars driving round behind the SC in the way of the marshals etc just so they can restart? It seems completely backwards, unncecessary, and more dangerous.

 

A standing start will also hugely eat into the race time allowed, given the 2hr limit. If it's not a red flag, the clock won't stop. 

[Diablobb81]

So who will be the next Piquet?

 

Another brilliant idea to completely destroy the sport.

[Buttoneer]

It strikes me as bizarre that a "safety" period will now end with a re-run of what is arguably the most dangerous part of any race.. another standing start. And this time on even colder tyres than the first one.

 

Not ignoring the rest of your post but isn't this the key point?

 

The start is not only the most dangerous part of the race, it is also the most lawless.  Drivers who cut chicanes or weave in braking areas are all forgiven in those few moments after the light goes out, ordinarily, so are we going to see that here too?  Of course we will because the drivers will take whatever advantage they think they can get.

 

I think it is inevitable that the race director and stewards will not be able to police these moments.

 

We will absolutely definitely have two safety cars in a row in one race, as a direct result of this folly.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

We will absolutely definitely have two safety cars in a row in one race, as a direct result of this folly.

 

Agreed. Although it's a while ago now, do you remember Canada 1998? Big crash on the original start, red flag and the restart led to another crash which could've led to another red flag, which would've probably led to the same again. On some tracks you can guarantee the same sort of thing happening.

 

Anyway, why waste laps behind the SC, especially while the backmarkers unlap themselves, when it'd be easier to throw a red flag and give us more racing laps, rather than a few SC laps and then a standing restart.

[redreni]

The thought process is wrong.

 

I would appeal to the decision-makers in F1 to look at the following case study: BTCC vs. ATCC/V8 Supercars.

 

In the mid/late 90s the BTCC was enjoying a golden era of popularity with races being watched by mainstream audiences and the series attracting serious manufacturer participation, Since then it has introduced gimmick after gimmick: Shorter races, reverse grids, suspicious late-race safety cars for "debris" that are actually designed to close the field, success ballast, balance of performance. It has also moved onto a channel that far fewer people watch. Result: a massive decline in interest from televison viewers, a modest decline in attendances at the circuits, and an almost total loss of interest from manufacturers (in terms of works entries, at least) and from top international drivers.

 

Contrast this with V8 Supercars where they have generally maintained the same racing distances per weekend (sometimes splitting them into more races over shorter distances, but still much longer than BTCC events), but they have ensured that all starting grids are determined on merit after a proper qualifying session, there's no BOP, no ballast, no nonsense. Basically no (or very little) dumbing down. And they've managed to stay on Channel 7, which people actually watch. Result: it's still incredibly popular in its home market, it's attracting new manufacturers, and as anyone who has been watching this year will tell you, it still produces great racing, which is all the better for being real rather than contrived.

 

F1 is going down the BTCC route. It's maintaining most of its fanbase anyway because it started from a position of such overwhelming dominance that there is no other single-seater championship that can challenge it. But it still faces a potential sharp decline in popularity if it continues down the road of dumbing down, if you ask me.

 

On the specific issue, fundamentally we have to ask if Safety Cars are intended for safety, with the minimum interference in the race, or if they're there for entertainment and to create overtaking opportunities. If F1 is a sport, the Safety Car is there for safety and it will only be used to protect competitors and marshalls, it will then be withdrawn asap, lapped cars will remain lapped, and the race will pick up where it left off. The loss of earned gaps will an unfortunate side-effect of this process, not the aim. If anything else happens, we all have to face up to what we've known for a while; F1 is not a sport. Not a pure sport, at least.

[Rinehart]

 

^ 

 

Its beyond predictable that the next "changes" we here from this group will also be equally daft. 

It not that us fans are scared of change, or internet warriors that criticise, for the sake of it.

No, its that its blatantly obvious that those inside the goldfish bowl are the ones that took us to this point and its their preconceptions, agendas and attitudes that is going to keep dragging F1 down rather than recovering it.

 

Everything we hear these days is another ridiculous x-factor band-aid that attempts to solve fundamental problems. 

As Luca says, its time to solve those fundamental problems..

[TomNokoe]

Stop killing homeless people Bernie!!!!!

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Just seen a question which raises an interesting point. If a wet race is started behind the SC, is the restart a standing start? If so, why bother starting behind the SC in the rain if it's going to be a standing start anyway?

 

Same goes for if like Canada 11 where they brought the SC out for the rain, why bother bringing it out for the weather if you're not going to restart until it's safe anyway, with the restart being a standing start? No point driving round.

 

Also, in this situation where the SC comes out then it's a standing restart, can teams change tyres on the grid (if it's dry I mean), or are they not allowed because technically it's not a red flag?

 

Another point is time will surely be wasted while engineers etc come on the grid and we go through the whole 'grid formation' system again, so we'd surely end up with even less racing laps as you'd lose say 10mins each time a SC restart was required while they come on the grid, start the cars, check everything is ok, download data, etc etc etc, and on some tracks like Canada where it's not uncommon to have multiple SC's, you end up with rather than 70 laps, you have 57 because of time lost while everyone is on the grid for each SC restart?

[Ickx]

Well, I feel like that last straw is dangerously close. Why do they have to change the fundamentals again, and again, and again.... IDIOTS.

[Disgrace]

...

 

We will absolutely definitely have two safety cars in a row in one race, as a direct result of this folly.

 

The measures are very revealing about the desperation at the top, but perhaps more worryingly, a lack of safety-focussed thinking.

[PayasYouRace]

Just seen a question which raises an interesting point. If a wet race is started behind the SC, is the restart a standing start? If so, why bother starting behind the SC in the rain if it's going to be a standing start anyway?

 

Same goes for if like Canada 11 where they brought the SC out for the rain, why bother bringing it out for the weather if you're not going to restart until it's safe anyway, with the restart being a standing start? No point driving round.

 

Also, in this situation where the SC comes out then it's a standing restart, can teams change tyres on the grid (if it's dry I mean), or are they not allowed because technically it's not a red flag?

 

Another point is time will surely be wasted while engineers etc come on the grid and we go through the whole 'grid formation' system again, so we'd surely end up with even less racing laps as you'd lose say 10mins each time a SC restart was required while they come on the grid, start the cars, check everything is ok, download data, etc etc etc, and on some tracks like Canada where it's not uncommon to have multiple SC's, you end up with rather than 70 laps, you have 57 because of time lost while everyone is on the grid for each SC restart?

 

I assumed this would be just for dry starts.

 

Also, I took it to mean the cars would line up on the grid and the lights would release them, as if they were returning from the warm-up lap.