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Budget cap and less technical restrictions, would it work?


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Poll: Budget cap and less technical restrictions, would it work? (66 member(s) have cast votes)

Budget cap and less technical restrictions, would it work?

  1. Yes (35 votes [53.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.03%

  2. No (31 votes [46.97%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.97%

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#51 Murl

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 07:06

How would you monitor the expenditure? 

 

 

Require all participants to submit contractual details to some monitoring agency.

 

Expel anyone found paying under the table, would probably happen to a couple of teams after a handful of years.

Other sports have had budget cap scandals.

 

This suggests that it is possible to police and that cheats will be caught from time to time.

 

People will ALWAYS cheat.

 

F1 already has technical regulations. They manage to monitor then some of the time.



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#52 pRy

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 11:36

Max speaking about the idea here: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/115425

 

The lower your budget the more freedoms you would have which would result in a £50m team being close behind a £500m team. It's an interesting idea that I could see would benefit the lower teams and the sport as a whole. His ultimate solution is the f1 rights income being evenly split amongst the teams to pay their expenses for the season. Anything on top such as sponsorship income they get to keep as profit.



#53 bonjon1979a

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 13:27

Max speaking about the idea here: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/115425

 

The lower your budget the more freedoms you would have which would result in a £50m team being close behind a £500m team. It's an interesting idea that I could see would benefit the lower teams and the sport as a whole. His ultimate solution is the f1 rights income being evenly split amongst the teams to pay their expenses for the season. Anything on top such as sponsorship income they get to keep as profit.

It sounds good on paper but I guess the downfall is that major marques like Merc, Ferrari, red Bull, Mclaren don't want to have an even playing field and if they lose their competitive advantage then I suspect they wouldn't be interested in competing in the sport any more. Is f1 really going to survive with the likes of Force India and Williams as the major players? I doubt it. The genii is well and truly out of the bottle, F1 is a major commercial entity and as such lots of money will be spent by teams wanting to compete in it.



#54 Paco

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:02

You people are so ignorant sometimes. If you have a financial free for all you'll have less competition, and after not too long, fewer teams.


And the same time, many are horrible naive at how impossible it is to do a budget cap in a r&d environment... Cap would only work if drivers salaries were the only cost! Which it isn't...teams like Ferrari McLaren Williams etc all have non f1 projects that generate income and those sub companies could easy be setup and funded by non f1 revenue but do a significant amount of r&d for the F1 counterpart. Bang... Loophole that is unpluggable.. Budget cap in sports like hockey, basketball etc work simply because a players salaries as a function of a teams budget is controllable.. But in a non spec series like f1..... All this stupidity of a budget cap is ludicrous.. Teams would setup many off shore companies away from eyes of the fia.. He'll.. Ferrari and Mercedes Honda etc. could so easily hide resources within their road car companies and multitude of divisions the fia would be impossible to police as those companies could be legit in developing tech for road car using F1 like innovations Yadda Yadda..



#55 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:03

It sounds good on paper but I guess the downfall is that major marques like Merc, Ferrari, red Bull, Mclaren don't want to have an even playing field and if they lose their competitive advantage then I suspect they wouldn't be interested in competing in the sport any more. Is f1 really going to survive with the likes of Force India and Williams as the major players? I doubt it. The genii is well and truly out of the bottle, F1 is a major commercial entity and as such lots of money will be spent by teams wanting to compete in it.

I think you could set a reasonably high limit to avoid this. $100 million should allow the best teams to still have an advantage over the smaller teams in the spending area, it just wont be a *huge* advantage like it is now.

I would say that any team that produces their own engines should be afforded a higher cap though, too. This might be an area of exploitation, but it wouldn't be fair otherwise. And if it is an area of potential exploitation, it might lead to some incentive to produce your own engines.

#56 Paco

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:06

Opening rule book may help but then you can't ban a team innovation every time there is a quantum leap discovered by a team...

At the end of the day, teams need to learn how to diversify to keep revenues streams open like Williams has done. The rest is simply.. Get on with the job and stop freezes on development because once your behind you'll never catch up especially in the engine department,

Edited by Paco, 18 August 2014 - 14:36.


#57 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:07

Well, a Ferrari fan would say that.  Ferrari need to spent four times as much as the opposition to have a chance of winning.

Well, a Ferrari basher would think that.

#58 travbrad

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:09

In a theoretical world where it could be enforced, perhaps it would work.

 

I don't think they will ever be able to effectively enforce a budget cap though, especially for the big manufacturers who can easily hide some development costs in a different part of their company.



#59 Paco

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:10

Max speaking about the idea here: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/115425
 
The lower your budget the more freedoms you would have which would result in a £50m team being close behind a £500m team. It's an interesting idea that I could see would benefit the lower teams and the sport as a whole. His ultimate solution is the f1 rights income being evenly split amongst the teams to pay their expenses for the season. Anything on top such as sponsorship income they get to keep as profit.


And why would a team not use their profits to setup a new company specifically geared towards r&d on say aero... Or say advanced concepts like the double diffuser and when ready launch it.. It would have zero bearing on what the fia supplied funds and yet teams is still spending hords of money. They could setup 10 20 30 little companies with specific agendas for future developments..

Who is the fia to say that all profits should go into team owners pockets if the owners want to spend it on the team...and hire people and put it right back into the economy ....

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#60 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:15

How can you enforce a budget cap when no 2 teams are the same? Any excess expenditure can be, by some creative accounting, be attributed to another dept....marketing, PR etc or, in the case of Mercedes & Ferrari, to engine development. After all these 2 [along with Renault, who are no longer a team] have to build & develop engines for them & other teams to use. What about teams closely linked....eg Red Bull & Torro Rosso...similar creative accounting can be done here. The natural process...survival of the fittest...should apply and if they can't afford to be in F1, they shouldn't be there.



#61 Fastcake

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:25

Max speaking about the idea here: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/115425

 

The lower your budget the more freedoms you would have which would result in a £50m team being close behind a £500m team. It's an interesting idea that I could see would benefit the lower teams and the sport as a whole. His ultimate solution is the f1 rights income being evenly split amongst the teams to pay their expenses for the season. Anything on top such as sponsorship income they get to keep as profit.

 

So why didn't he arrange that while he was FIA president instead of flogging off the rights to his mate for a pittance?



#62 tifosi

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 16:49

And the same time, many are horrible naive at how impossible it is to do a budget cap in a r&d environment... Cap would only work if drivers salaries were the only cost! Which it isn't...teams like Ferrari McLaren Williams etc all have non f1 projects that generate income and those sub companies could easy be setup and funded by non f1 revenue but do a significant amount of r&d for the F1 counterpart. Bang... Loophole that is unpluggable.. Budget cap in sports like hockey, basketball etc work simply because a players salaries as a function of a teams budget is controllable.. But in a non spec series like f1..... All this stupidity of a budget cap is ludicrous.. Teams would setup many off shore companies away from eyes of the fia.. He'll.. Ferrari and Mercedes Honda etc. could so easily hide resources within their road car companies and multitude of divisions the fia would be impossible to police as those companies could be legit in developing tech for road car using F1 like innovations Yadda Yadda..

 

 

And the same time, many are horrible naive at how impossible it is to do a budget cap in a r&d environment... Cap would only work if drivers salaries were the only cost! Which it isn't...teams like Ferrari McLaren Williams etc all have non f1 projects that generate income and those sub companies could easy be setup and funded by non f1 revenue but do a significant amount of r&d for the F1 counterpart. Bang... Loophole that is unpluggable.. Budget cap in sports like hockey, basketball etc work simply because a players salaries as a function of a teams budget is controllable.. But in a non spec series like f1..... All this stupidity of a budget cap is ludicrous.. Teams would setup many off shore companies away from eyes of the fia.. He'll.. Ferrari and Mercedes Honda etc. could so easily hide resources within their road car companies and multitude of divisions the fia would be impossible to police as those companies could be legit in developing tech for road car using F1 like innovations Yadda Yadda..

 

  Excellent post Paco.  I've pointed this out many times, but not nearly was well stated as your post.

 

  I've yet to see anyone be able to refute this.



#63 ardbeg

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 17:02

I quote myself from another thread:

 

Budget caps can not work, it is impossible. Only thing a budget cap would do is to reduce the transparency. There are no moral rules that applies to corporations.

 

I am very surprised each time this weird, impossible suggestion are brought up



#64 Paul Parker

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 17:37

I really can't think of any major sports franchise that has a budget cap which actually works. 

 

It's like telling someone you can't earn 'x' amount because the others get 'y' less than you. 

 

This is a typical political/bureaucratic/control mindset approach which would surely end up increasing spend rather than cutting it back.



#65 Gyno

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 17:41

You'd have manufacturers leaving :-)

Says who?



#66 Gyno

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 17:44

So why didn't he arrange that while he was FIA president instead of flogging off the rights to his mate for a pittance?

He tried to arrange it but his private life in sex dungeons made it impossible for him to push it through.



#67 tifosi

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 18:22

He tried to arrange it but his private life in sex dungeons made it impossible for him to push it through.

 

  Also, I thinlk people may not understand that the FIA does not control the majority of funds in F1.



#68 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 18:34

So why didn't he arrange that while he was FIA president instead of flogging off the rights to his mate for a pittance?

 

 

He was in the process to push it through and had also support from some of the smaller teams. 

 

Then, as a random surprise from nowhere, he was exposed by NoTW in a private sex scandal with prostitutes and alleged Nazi themes and his power was all of a sudden heavily compromised, his position very weak and he was politically unable to push through it. 

 

The manufacturers threatened a break away series but presented an ultimatum in having Max Mosley leave and so that was that. 

 

Of course this is a heavily summarized and readers digest version of the actual events - there was some more stuff going on but when it all boiled down we ended up somewhere around here. 

 

Now I'm not saying .... 


Edited by LuckyStrike1, 18 August 2014 - 18:35.


#69 Spillage

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 18:47

I am overwhelmingly in favour of budget caps. Tell 'em all that, minus wages, they aren't allowed to spend any more than £50m a year designing and building racing cars. And give them all enough prize money to make that possible. Would it really be any harder to police than the Financial Fair Play rules recently introduced by UEFA, or the wage budget cap that has been in effect for some years in British rugby league? Far from deterring manufacturers, the news that they can win an F1 world championship without spending hundreds of millions ought to be attractive to everybody.



#70 Hans V

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 19:03

I thought I'd never say this but I agree completely with Max Mosley in todays Autosport. Let the teams get equal amounts of money from the commerial rights, put in a budget cap as the sport is imploding and it can be controlled - and free up the rules a bit - but standardize expensive stuff that noone cares about like suspension, brakes and front and rear wings.

#71 Fastcake

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 19:16

He was in the process to push it through and had also support from some of the smaller teams. 

 

Then, as a random surprise from nowhere, he was exposed by NoTW in a private sex scandal with prostitutes and alleged Nazi themes and his power was all of a sudden heavily compromised, his position very weak and he was politically unable to push through it. 

 

The manufacturers threatened a break away series but presented an ultimatum in having Max Mosley leave and so that was that. 

 

Of course this is a heavily summarized and readers digest version of the actual events - there was some more stuff going on but when it all boiled down we ended up somewhere around here. 

 

Now I'm not saying .... 

 

There was no sex scandal in 1998. Had he shared the revenue back when the FIA had full control of it then the financial crisis in F1 would never have been so bad.



#72 Risil

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 20:46

It's a fair point but were News of the World hacking voicemails in 1998?



#73 tifosi

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 20:53

@Spillage (sorry can't get the quote thingy to work).

 

So Ferrari have a new Lemans project going on.  They put all their resources into it, including spending $10M on developing a new diffuser.

One day an engineer from the Lemans project is having lunch and one of the F1 engineers sits down beside him

 

2 weeks later, Ferrari has a brand new diffuser on their F1 car.

 

How in the world would you police that?



#74 Paco

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 01:59

I thought I'd never say this but I agree completely with Max Mosley in todays Autosport. Let the teams get equal amounts of money from the commerial rights, put in a budget cap as the sport is imploding and it can be controlled - and free up the rules a bit - but standardize expensive stuff that noone cares about like suspension, brakes and front and rear wings.


So what exactly can a team develop? What motivation would a manufacturer have to be in f1... Why would a millionaire spend millions just to hire the best driver but have no challenge in making a better car... I'd be sooo bored as an owner if my only challenge was getting the best driver... Phish.

#75 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:16

There was no sex scandal in 1998. Had he shared the revenue back when the FIA had full control of it then the financial crisis in F1 would never have been so bad.

 

Who said anything about 1998? 



#76 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 09:08

Actually quite simple,, sort of. Race far simpler cars with basic safety rules. Ban exotic materials, ban a lot of the electronics. No forced aspiration and less emphasis on longevity of parts, Though there is still a case for some of that. That and petrol engines of X capacity [3.5 litre?] With say 12000 rpm max. No more than 6 speeds, no drivers aids which can be controlled with control ECUs. mechanical suspensions. And no stupid boring hybrids!! They cost tens of millions and make the racing less.

More emphasis on the drivers and less on electric gizmos,, and cars with simple aero, not the mad boffins nightmare we currently have. Wings with no more than 2 elements either end. flat bottoms and mininum ride heights. No control tyres, maximum rim widths and diameters and mininum duro on the tyres. Read moderatly hard, like the hard tyres are now.No super softs that last 5 laps and just turn the track to marbles.

That should make simpler, more entertaining racing, and a smaller budget team that is half smart may well find themselves on podiums. Even if they do not it has not cost them the National debt of a small country to do so!



#77 Paco

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 13:43

Actually quite simple,, sort of. Race far simpler cars with basic safety rules. Ban exotic materials, ban a lot of the electronics. No forced aspiration and less emphasis on longevity of parts, Though there is still a case for some of that. That and petrol engines of X capacity [3.5 litre?] With say 12000 rpm max. No more than 6 speeds, no drivers aids which can be controlled with control ECUs. mechanical suspensions. And no stupid boring hybrids!! They cost tens of millions and make the racing less.
More emphasis on the drivers and less on electric gizmos,, and cars with simple aero, not the mad boffins nightmare we currently have. Wings with no more than 2 elements either end. flat bottoms and mininum ride heights. No control tyres, maximum rim widths and diameters and mininum duro on the tyres. Read moderatly hard, like the hard tyres are now.No super softs that last 5 laps and just turn the track to marbles.
That should make simpler, more entertaining racing, and a smaller budget team that is half smart may well find themselves on podiums. Even if they do not it has not cost them the National debt of a small country to do so!

So back to the future you say... So want teams not separated by tenths but by seconds... Again... What motivation would there be for manufacturers to be. Even good ole boys nascar can't keep it basic. Why not tell teams they can only use ms dos, 256k computers, steel and rubber... Maybe everyone has to field a ford model t...

If that's what you truly want, watch other formula series like gp2 or IndyCart-cart... Hell, even karting...those series exist already.. No need to make f1 into something that already is out there.

Edited by Paco, 19 August 2014 - 13:46.


#78 Fastcake

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 14:22

Who said anything about 1998? 

 

I did, though I got the wrong year. If Mosley wanted to evenly distribute the money earned from F1, then he had the opportunity to do so before he sold the long term rights to Ecclestone at the turn of the century. He may have tried to fix the problem in his last years of office, but it was solely down to him that the money went to Bernie in the first place.



#79 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 14:27

I did, though I got the wrong year. If Mosley wanted to evenly distribute the money earned from F1, then he had the opportunity to do so before he sold the long term rights to Ecclestone at the turn of the century. He may have tried to fix the problem in his last years of office, but it was solely down to him that the money went to Bernie in the first place.

 

I don't believe he had the political power in 1998 to enforce his ideas and proposals about budget cap. In the late 2000's I believe he was in a much stronger political position in the sport and within the FIA to be able to make it reality and then a set of circumstances forced him out of F1 and FIA.... 



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#80 Darrenj

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 17:42

lower wider cars with wider tyres to handle the torque of the new engines... not really that high tech

Since the turbo was implemented the last time  years ago. Tech has gotten better and safety. improved.. 

Plus such cars look better  :clap:  :clap:



#81 Richard T

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 17:45

I really like the idea, however I think it would be hard to police manufacturers not to put some research outside it's F1 budget and implement it anyway. 



#82 KTownDevil

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Posted Yesterday, 18:19

All teams except Mercedes agreed to raise the minimum weight from 691kg to 710kg.  :down:  Mercedes.
 


#83 Paco

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Posted Yesterday, 19:20

Lol. Maybe it's how it's being implemented that MGP isn't happy about. If they say sure you can have heavier cars but only tucked in here... If it's an overall thing with stupid stipulations then seems odd they'd be anxious about 19kg..

#84 Frank Tuesday

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Posted Yesterday, 19:38

As there's no budget cap, costs have been tried to cut by some technical restrictions. I've never really liked the longlife engines and gearboxes, and even less the engine homologation for multiple years.

 

But would it work if a budget cap were introduced and restrictions removed? If there were a budget cap, I think there'd be no need for restrictions aimed for cost saving. For sure, there wouldn't be a return to the days of qualy engines but there'd be more freedom for engineers, yet they should work within a restricted budget.

 

I'd prefer F1 with less restrictions, a bigger engineering challenge.

 

I don't think a "budget" cap would work, but a maximum sale price might. 

 

I think the engine Power Unit rules could be very simple.

 

1) Limit fuel per race to 30kg/100km.

2) Power Units must be made available to all teams for 5M Euro per car per year. 

3) All power units will be sealed and delivered to the FIA, which will distribute them randomly to the teams.

4) Teams must return Power Unit to FIA at the end of the race weekend with the seal in tact.