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Red Bull already started preparations to develop own F1 engine


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#101 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 00:25

If I was Honda I would prefer Red Bull than McLaren...

 

C'mon beaten by Williams & Force India... thats a joke.  :down:



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#102 lbennie

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 02:42

Well they need to do something. Clearly renault is not putting everything into this generation of regs.

 

The team itself has done amazingly well to get as many constructor points as it has while having an inferior package to merc & williams.

 

It must be soul destroying see renault make 0 progress with the engine.



#103 CatharticF1

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 02:45

Well as engines don't magically appear we should soon see clues as to what people / companies are being engaged and where it's being developed. They'd be wanting to work with someone who a good pedigree.



#104 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 02:53

Well they need to do something. Clearly renault is not putting everything into this generation of regs.

 

The team itself has done amazingly well to get as many constructor points as it has while having an inferior package to merc & williams.

 

It must be soul destroying see renault make 0 progress with the engine.

 

If you remember pre-season testing I would argue that Renault have made more progress than Mercedes and Ferrari. A Red Bull Renault driver is best of the rest, and Red Bull lies second in the WCC. We all chose to argue, discuss and communicate in different ways. Personally I think that Red Bull are a little too shrill with their displeasure with Renault, and as pointed out they have Renault and nothing else, unless they go the alternate way of securing an engine package which is not already in F1.

 

And regardless of what they do, they will be using a Renault package to the end of 2015 when their current contract expire.

 

:cool:



#105 Petroltorque

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 05:25

The mood music at Red Bull suggests that they are paving the ground to change suppliers. Marko, Horner and Newey are conceited enough to believe that simply changing Power Trains will solve their problems. A word in defence of Renault. They have had to supply a unit compatible with 4 different installations. Mercedes and Ferrari simply offer units that have been developed for their respective works teams.

#106 jee

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 05:31

Red Bull is the Renault works team like McLaren will be Honda's.


Edited by jee, 23 June 2014 - 05:31.


#107 DarthWillie

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 07:04

As far as I understand the rules, red bull would have to make their engine available to other teams. So by selling it they could get part of the money needed back.

Now put Newey on making a supercar (like Gordon Murray did at McLaren) with the street version of that engine and there is a business opportunity

#108 crbassassin

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 07:30

As far as I understand the rules, red bull would have to make their engine available to other teams. So by selling it they could get part of the money needed back.

Now put Newey on making a supercar (like Gordon Murray did at McLaren) with the street version of that engine and there is a business opportunity

What would the make be?



#109 DarthWillie

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 07:34

Red Bull, simple or call it the RB. And let's be honest, what petrol head with loads and loads of cash would not want a Newey designed supercar.

#110 Afterburner

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 10:56

Red Bull, simple or call it the RB. And let's be honest, what petrol head with loads and loads of cash would not want a Newey designed supercar.

:up:

I've actually always felt that I'd rather commission a car from Newey than buy a Veyron, LaFerrari, etc., should I ever find myself with enough cash. :lol:

EDIT: You f%&king touchscreen... :drunk:

Edited by Afterburner, 23 June 2014 - 10:57.


#111 BRG

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:33

Is there any chance Red Bull would purchase the assets from the PURE venture?

What was the profit on a can of Red Bull again?  It would be enough to buy the assets of PURE since those were entirely imaginary.

 

I see that Horner says that the Renault's performance is 'unacceptable'.  I do not recall ever hearing a team principal say that publicly about their engine. It is simply unacceptable behaviour towards your partners.  If I was Renault, I would cut RB adrift.



#112 onemoresolo

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:39

What was the profit on a can of Red Bull again?  It would be enough to buy the assets of PURE since those were entirely imaginary.

 

I see that Horner says that the Renault's performance is 'unacceptable'.  I do not recall ever hearing a team principal say that publicly about their engine. It is simply unacceptable behaviour towards your partners.  If I was Renault, I would cut RB adrift.

 

Trouble is, Renault need Red Bull more than Red Bull need Renault. I don't see Renault hanging around F1 without a top team to supply and justify their investment.



#113 Ali_G

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:39

What was the profit on a can of Red Bull again?  It would be enough to buy the assets of PURE since those were entirely imaginary.

 

I see that Horner says that the Renault's performance is 'unacceptable'.  I do not recall ever hearing a team principal say that publicly about their engine. It is simply unacceptable behaviour towards your partners.  If I was Renault, I would cut RB adrift.

 

Simply cannot believe what Horner has come out with.  Whatever is going on behind the scenes at Renault does not need airing in public, certainly not be the head of a customer organisation.  This really has shown us a side of Horner which I didn't think he had in him. 

 

Probably not in Renault's interest to cut Red Bull loose at this stage, but considering the success they had with Renault over the past 4 years, it would certainly be fulfilling to see it happen.

 

Not a hope RBR will go about producing their own engines.  Cosworth have produced a 1.6l V6 but that is where it ends.  No ERS system has been reduced which is compatible with this engine and I would imagine that Cosworth do not have the expertise to produce one at this time.  Hence, even buying Cosworth wouldn't let RBR build its own power unit.



#114 Paco

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:32

So Newey goes to sidelines. Horner publicly disses Renault their main supplier.. even though they re still top3..m and doing better then McLaren and on par with ferrari.. hmm... what a bad year) eye roll). biggest at Redbull isn't Renault but Vettel.. if he was closer to his teammate they'd be more competitive LOL.. Seriously, crap happens. You're not gonna win every race, every championship..so it's an off year. Learn to deal with it and stop your stupid whining..

#115 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 15:23

What was the profit on a can of Red Bull again?  It would be enough to buy the assets of PURE since those were entirely imaginary.

 

I see that Horner says that the Renault's performance is 'unacceptable'.  I do not recall ever hearing a team principal say that publicly about their engine. It is simply unacceptable behaviour towards your partners.  If I was Renault, I would cut RB adrift.

 

I dunno, I remember them bitching about Renault back in 2009.

 

It's a shame Renault never complained about losing a race 2009-2013 when a non-engine bit of the car failed  :p



#116 Afterburner

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 15:31

So Newey goes to sidelines. Horner publicly disses Renault their main supplier.. even though they re still top3..m and doing better then McLaren and on par with ferrari.. hmm... what a bad year) eye roll). biggest at Redbull isn't Renault but Vettel.. if he was closer to his teammate they'd be more competitive LOL.. Seriously, crap happens. You're not gonna win every race, every championship..so it's an off year. Learn to deal with it and stop your stupid whining..

Actually, if Renault's equipment had been better, it's not impossible that Vettel would be leading his teammate in the standings right now; Monaco alone was a huge swing to Ricciardo's favour because Vettel's machinery failed while he was leading him (more or less 80% of the gap between them), never mind Catalunya quali and Austria. Hence Horner griping about Renault. Not saying Vettel would've outscored Ricciardo in all of those races, but the gap (currently 23 points) would be significantly less if not non-existent. I'm not making excuses for Vettel, who's clearly had his backside handed to him by Ricciardo this year, but the difference between them is exaggerated by reliability problems.

Also, I'd say that RBR is in the right to put pressure on Renault on the basis that the only had to put one part of the package together, and they failed. Why was it that all through 2013 we kept hearing about how Mercedes was trying so hard to put a good engine together for the new regs, and nothing about how anyone else was? Isn't it kind of a clue to get it together if your opponent is sending messages to the press that early? Then comes winter testing and the absolute debacle that was--RBR got squat for run-time compared to all the Ferrari/Merc teams because of unreliability and what was evidently an incomplete product. If my engine supplier showed up with a product that couldn't make it one lap without bursting into flames while my competitor was running race distances on the same program, I'd have been a lot more livid than RBR were. WTF were they doing last year?

Red Bull, Horner, et al are not angry because the Renault engine is not better than the Mercedes. They're angry because it would be a joke to even attempt to consider them equivalent--especially after the alleged 'big upgrade' that came this weekend failed to even help them maintain position relative to the Merc-engined teams. If Red Bull think they can do it better, I say more power to them.

#117 oetzi

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 15:34

Same deal with Coke though.

Red Bull is probably selling them wholesale for a dollar or something. Energy drinks are stupidly high margin, the problem is getting market share.

Not sure of the exact amount now, but a few years back production costs for a can of red bull were less than €.01. Just F all your I.

Edited by oetzi, 23 June 2014 - 15:34.


#118 HeadFirst

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 19:49

Not sure if this has been noted ....  http://www.autosport...t.php/id/114611

 

 

 

Red Bull has all but ruled out building its own Formula 1 engine in the future, despite hinting that it could ditch Renault for 2016 unless it improves.


#119 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 20:16

Not sure if this has been noted ....  http://www.autosport...t.php/id/114611

 

Do not think that really settles anything.

 

Headline: Red Bull rules out building own Formula 1 engine

Article : Red Bull has all but ruled out building its own Formula 1 engine in the future

 

I read this to mean that they most likely will not build their own engine, not that they have ruled out to build their own engine. Headline is wrong when reading first sentence of article. For clarification to me a badge job from a Manufacturer not in F1 currently is same as building their own engine, and that would include an 'Infiniti' badged on a Renault.

 

:cool:



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#120 redreni

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 23:47

They do say never believe anything until it has been officially denied. In this case, not only has Horner officially denied it, but Mateschitz has gone one further and denied that the story is worth denying, even though they've already denied it. It must be true!



#121 Tsarwash

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 00:08

Not sure of the exact amount now, but a few years back production costs for a can of red bull were less than €.01. Just F all your I.

The metal in the can itself must cost more than one dollar, let alone the production of it. I would say 20 cents would be more reasonable.

#122 Seano

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 00:17

They really are up Sh*t Street aren't they! And all this loose talk really helps the cause too.

 

They have no knowledge or facilities for building a power unit. Newey is brilliant but he can't help much with virtual metal bashing workshop. Cosworth could effectively build an ICE  but don't know how to make the rest of the power unit or control/tune it.

 

Neither Mercedes, Ferrari and probably Honda have any interest in throwing them a lifeline either.

 

No wonder Adrian wants to do something else - he doesn't like the smell of not winning.

 

Seano



#123 ExFlagMan

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 08:58

Seem to recall when Red Bull was first introduced a chemist I knew did some analysis of the contents and decided the can cost a lot more than the contents, which he reckoned where mainly by-products of industrial chemical processing.



#124 engel

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:09

They really are up Sh*t Street aren't they! And all this loose talk really helps the cause too.

 

They have no knowledge or facilities for building a power unit. Newey is brilliant but he can't help much with virtual metal bashing workshop. Cosworth could effectively build an ICE  but don't know how to make the rest of the power unit or control/tune it.

 

Neither Mercedes, Ferrari and probably Honda have any interest in throwing them a lifeline either.

 

No wonder Adrian wants to do something else - he doesn't like the smell of not winning.

 

Seano

 

I think you are exaggerating slightly ... they are second in the championship not drowning, off course they don't like being second, but it's not like they 're midfield dicing with McLaren who does after all have pedigree and a Merc engine.

 

If they decide to build their own engine they could just take over the Renault operation, inject money into it, badge it infinity and move on, I doubt Renault would want to stick around supplying Lotus and Caterham anyway. They have the money to buy in expertize, they don't need Newey to take a crash course in engine building. But fundamentally what is missing isn't ICE expertize, it's all the electronics some of which are actually off the shelf components (Marelli etc)



#125 Petroltorque

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:44

You are quite right. It's not the ICE but the ERS technology that's lacking. Nor should we be surprised that Mercedes has the most efficient system since their KERS was the exemplar under the V8 rules. I will not be surprised if Red Bull announce a tie up with Cosworth and provide the funding for the ERS development.

#126 oetzi

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 14:00

The metal in the can itself must cost more than one dollar, let alone the production of it. I would say 20 cents would be more reasonable.

Believe what you like :)

#127 SonJR

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 16:55

So according to AMuS Renault aren't really enjoying their time in Formula One, currently, in part because of the bad press, and are lamenting having to put more money into the engine project, which has cost more than expected. The article also speculates their base in Viry-Chattilon (where they make the engines) may be up for sale, although they don't seem entirely sure about that.

 

Link: http://www.auto-moto...ft-8428105.html



#128 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 17:02

Smoke, fire.

 

:cool:



#129 saudoso

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 16:19

Reading "The Beast" - which is discussed to some extent on the tech forum's Penske PC23 thread - might be enlightening on how engines are developed and named. It's a very fun read too.



#130 Dunc

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 18:27

My guess: VW own Lamborghini, which has a bull as its corporate logo, a slightly bonkers corporate image and a relatively recent history in F1. I think there will be a tie up between the two companies in that VW will develop an engine and Newey will work on a Lamborghini road car that gets some kind of Red Bull branding.

#131 goingthedistance

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 18:34

http://adamcooperf1....ngine-for-2016/

#132 Concreteconrods

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 18:42

If Red Bull were to commission a new F1 engine they might engage Ilmor Engineering to build it. Adrian Newey in his McLaren days had a good working relationship with Mario Illien to ensure the engines were light, low & well packaged. Ilmor make the succesful 2.2 litre Chevy Indycar turbo V6 & the step to an F1 power unit should be within their capability. A wealthy benefactor would need to bankroll it perhaps!


Edited by Concreteconrods, 25 June 2014 - 18:49.


#133 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 18:55

 

Interesting, but I want to believe that the other manufacturers would not go along with Viry/RBR getting to build a completely new engine. And it would indeed make a mockery of the rules.



#134 alfsboy

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 19:21

i think that the key to understanding  Red Bull is to realize  that they are not a publically listed company with share holders.it make a lot of sense to design and build an engine as money is literally no object .THere are only 3 shareholders and one of them owns two percent.Both shareholders are kncking on.a better idea might be to buy CVC  ,chuck out all the old tossers and alter the rules.The FIA can be bought anytime.



#135 xflow7

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 19:22

Makes me wonder if there's a potential tie-in with the upcoming Nissan LMP-1 effort.  Viry becomes a NISMO operation and builds Infiniti-badged engines for F1 and NISMO/Nissan-badged engines for WEC.  There's enough commonality of technology now in the hybrid systems, and in particular the control and power electronics, that co-locating those operations might make sense.

 

Dave



#136 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 19:33

I can not imagine any new engine build at Viry can be accepted as a 'new manufacturer'.

 

:cool:



#137 LoudHoward

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 00:38

We don't really know what's going on behind the scenes with RBR and Renault, say a hypothetical situation has occurred where Renault has behind the scenes decided to pull out of F1, and (besides what they're saying) have stopped all but the most basic development and support, in that situation I'd consider Horner's comments justified. If they're (Renault) hurling money and resources into it and making significant steps, then they aren't. Can't really judge myself based on what we know.



#138 fZero

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 10:46

And it would indeed make a mockery of the rules.

 

Well it is Formula 1. The rules are there to be mocked. It's part of the game. :clap:



#139 seahawk

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 11:01

The Nissan idea makes sense.



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#140 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 20:01

Well it is Formula 1. The rules are there to be mocked. It's part of the game. :clap:

 

Not if one team is singled out to be able to do what nobody else can. Normal cheating, sure, of course :)



#141 iii

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 08:58

Rumour has it that  Viry and or RB will buy the IP rights from renault  and rebadge the 'old' engine with all the mods and they have learned this year and the  trubo mod from merc as a brand new engine under the infinity brand thus geting round the freeze on the dev 



#142 oetzi

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 09:42

If that's allowed, won't we just see Ferrari F1 Engines SpA buying up the Ferrari engine division and its IP, and Mercedes Even Higher Performance Power Thingies Limited doing likewise?

 

I guess this is what they call cost cutting  :stoned:



#143 goingthedistance

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 09:46

Rumour has it that  Viry and or RB will buy the IP rights from r[/size]enault  and rebadge the 'old' engine with all the mods and they have learned this year and the  trubo mod from merc as a brand new engine under the infinity brand thus geting round the freeze on the dev 


Adam Cooper reported that a week ago. Do you have a new source on this or are you just repeating last week's news?

#144 Jon83

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 10:04

I have disliked how much Red Bull has been publicly slating Renault despite them helping win so many world titles so I hope they do this and I hope the whole project is a failure

 

RBR have never not recognised the Renault contribution to their success.



#145 Timstr11

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 17:04

Very interesting developments if true.

It seems as if practically you can only have the required full integration if the chassis and engine departments are owned and controlled by one owner, breaking down bureaucratic and cultural barriers between the two.



#146 iii

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 17:08

it seems the bubble has been burst they wont build there own engine 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/114763