47 replies to this topic

[Wiggy]

http://m.gpupdate.ne...nce-in-austria/

Anybody able to think of finer example of team ineptness?!

What a shambles, the relative glory days of Raikkonen must seem a long while ago

[charly0418]

I agree, it's laughable. Your title is a little too much do lol.

 

Team is a real mess

[sosidge]

Sauber have plenty of glory days since Raikonnen - arguably their greatest success was the win as BMW-Sauber with Kubica, or the Kobayashi podium at the Japanese GP.

 

Anyway, the radio mixup is pretty dreadful. This is what happens when you put a lawyer in charge of the team instead of a racer.

[F. Scaramanga]

Team is a real mess

... with the worst drivers on the grid. 

[redreni]

"The glory days of Raikkonnen"? What about "the glory days of Heidfeld"? Heidfeld scored most of their points, and their only podium finish, the year Kimi was there.

 

It's certainly an unfortunate occurrance. It's up there with Patrick Head at Hockenheim 1999. He boomed "you are particularly slow in the infield sector" over the Williams team radio, intending for the message to be heard by Alex Zanardi, who was sitting in his car in the garage between qualy runs, but actually transmitting the message to Ralf Schumacher, who was just about to hit the brakes for the stadium hairpin on his qualy lap. He ended up locking up and running wide, losing a couple of places on the grid. It is rather important to hit the right button if you want to talk to a driver...

 

Anyone know if Sauber were on for points when they told Sutil to stop? They could really do with scoring some.

Edited by redreni, 22 June 2014 - 22:02.

[Andrew Hope]

Monisha runs a tight ship.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Sauber have plenty of glory days since Raikonnen - arguably their greatest success was the win as BMW-Sauber with Kubica, or the Kobayashi podium at the Japanese GP.

 

Anyway, the radio mixup is pretty dreadful. This is what happens when you put a lawyer in charge of the team instead of a racer.

 

Really? You're blaming the radio mix up on them not having a racer in charge? Oh dear

[redreni]

I agree, it's laughable. Your title is a little too much do lol.

 

Team is a real mess

 

Well I don't think the political climate has helped their masterplan to become a vehicle for Russian oligarchs to do their financial laundry. Not having any sponsors or money tends to limit a team's choices on the driver front. They're doing well to have Sutil there, to be honest. He will score points given half a chance.

[OvDrone]

They should just throw van der Garde and di Silvestro in and things will change.

[artista]

Cars with full wets on dry tarmac, crew forgetting to put the car on the ground to start the race (while the driver looks impotent how all the other cars just start their warm up lap)...
In F1 they have been specialists in doing the stupidest of things for decades. Today, it was just Saubers turn.

[Jimisgod]

Monisha runs a tight ship.

Runs it aground?

[charly0418]

A lot of people close to the team (sponsors and press) have told me its Monishas fault, but who the hell knows. Remember she took over in 2012 but she was still working with the team Peter built

[Fastcake]

Radio mix-ups probably happen to every team eventually. If you're in a high pressure environment and an emergency occurs, sooner or later someone's going to press the wrong button on the pit wall. 

[redreni]

Radio mix-ups probably happen to every team eventually. If you're in a high pressure environment and an emergency occurs, sooner or later someone's going to press the wrong button on the pit wall. 

 

True, but I think in the case of most teams, the message would come through the race engineer, who would be unlikely to have his finger on the button that allows him to talk to the other guy's driver. And if you're not going to do that, it would probably be prudent in future, to always include the driver's name in the message e.g. "Stop the car immediately, Esteban" so that, even if the other driver hears it, he will know it's not for him.

 

The comment from Sosidge above about Sauber's comparative "glory days", and my reply about Heidfeld having beaten Kimi in 2001, did make me think about how far downhill things have gone for Sauber since then. Because if you think about it, their strong fourth place in the WCC that year, ahead of Jordan (now Force India), Jaguar (now Red Bull), BAR (now Mercedes) and Bennetton (now Lotus) was really attributable to neither driver. They achieved that result because they had major sponsorship deals with Petronas and Red Bull, which allowed them to have the budget to run competitively and to pay the wages of Sergio Rinland, who designed the Sauber C20. And they didn't have to limit their driver choice to people who would bring money and sponsors, which helped.

 

I don't think they're failing to get points because the woman at the top is a poor leader. I think they're failing to get results because they've lost and failed to replace their major backers. It's Kaltenborn's job to make sure they find decent sponsors, and I hope she manages it before they go bust. And I don't think complaining about the sport's governance, and insisting that the sport is for some reason obligated to bring down costs to match Sauber's budget, rather than Sauber having to find the funds to support a bigger budget or go under, helps to attract sponsors.

Edited by redreni, 23 June 2014 - 10:49.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Is Kaltenborne at fault or is it the lack of results that have driven the mood down and it has become 'contagious' thus resulting in these silly errors?

[Fastcake]

True, but I think in the case of most teams, the message would come through the race engineer, who would be unlikely to have his finger on the button that allows him to talk to the other guy's driver. And if you're not going to do that, it would probably be prudent in future, to always include the driver's name in the message e.g. "Stop the car immediately, Esteban" so that, even if the other driver hears it, he will know it's not for him.

 

The comment from Sosidge above about Sauber's comparative "glory days", and my reply about Heidfeld having beaten Kimi in 2001, did make me think about how far downhill things have gone for Sauber since then. Because if you think about it, their strong fourth place in the WCC that year, ahead of Jordan (now Force India), Jaguar (now Red Bull), BAR (now Mercedes) and Bennetton (now Lotus) was really attributable to neither driver. They achieved that result because they had major sponsorship deals with Petronas and Red Bull, which allowed them to have the budget to run competitively and to pay the wages of Segio Rinland, who designed the Sauber C20. And they didn't have to limit their driver choice to people who would bring money and sponsors, which helped.

 

I don't think they're failing to get points because the woman at the top is a poor leader. I think they're failing to get results because they've lost and failed to replace their major backers. It's Kaltenborn's job to make sure they find decent sponsors, and I hope she manages it before they go bust. And I don't think complaining about the sport's governance, and insisting that the sport is for some reason obligated to bring down costs to match Sauber's budget, rather than Sauber having to find the funds to support a bigger budget or go under, helps to attract sponsors.

 

I wouldn't say Sauber's glory days are that long ago. It was only back in 2012 when Perez and Kobayashi were regular podium contenders, and just last year Hulkenberg was scoring a lot of points in the latter half of the season. Sauber's recent form has arguably been no worse than their pre-BMW days. They have quite simply failed to produce a good car this year, but unfortunately for them their financial situation threatens a classic death spiral of ever-worsening results leading to an ever-smaller budget leading to even worse results. I don't know where Kaltenborn is going to find money, but I too hope there is something out there, and preferably not from acting as a Russian laundry.

 

Kaltenborn is completely right to place the blame for Sauber's predicament on the sport however. They more than any other team are being screwed by the current revenue distribution. This is Sauber's 22nd straight season in Formula One, and yet they do not receive a single penny of the bribe money being given out under the veneer of rewarding the historical teams. Even Williams got thrown a bone out of that pot, and they've been no better than Sauber in recent years.

[V8 Fireworks]

Sauber?  Ferrari engines are rubbish.... #1 problem...

[charly0418]

Sauber?  Ferrari engines are rubbish.... #1 problem...

 

Even if they had a Merc engine they'd struggle I think. The car is a mess on the aero side, even for the straights

[garagetinkerer]

I never heard of Kaltenborn before she landed at Sauber... and i wondered if she would be able to live with the job. To be honest, their problem right now is not the management, but lack of sponsors and money for development. Yes, i understand the irony of what i just said, in that it is responsibility of management to assure smooth functioning throughout... but hiccups happen. Let us see how they emerge out of it.

 

Speaking of the incident, 10 seconds? 10 seconds? For shame...

[teejay]

Peter to do a Ron Dennis and grab his team back?

[Jackmancer]

Sauber?  Ferrari engines are rubbish.... #1 problem...

 

All even Ferrari-powered Marussia has scored points.

[Nonesuch]

The car is a mess on the aero side, even for the straights

 

It was also said to be relatively heavy at the start of the season, though I'm not sure how much of a role that still plays today.

[bschenker]

All even Ferrari-powered Marussia has scored points.

 

Yeah will stupid drivers ended in the rails!

 

.

Edited by bschenker, 23 June 2014 - 08:22.

[Jejking]

Problem: even with the 10 seconds retracted from Sutil's time he still would have been 20+ seconds behind P10. It's a shame though. Yesterday was a poor day for Sauber, but to write the team off would be nuts. They are quality contenders, only with these regulations it sucks at the moment. Next year will be evolution, not revolution. They have a chance to bounce back when they fix their aero. If the Merc engines are cheaper, I wouldn't hesitate to toss them in the car too by the way.

[Lights]

They just have an awful car. This failure still didn't cost them any points.

[SpartanChas]

Pretty stupid but since they weren't really in with any chance of points, it's not up there with some of the things McLaren did in 2012.

 

Their glory days with Perez and Kobayashi, then Hulkenberg, must seem so far away now.

Edited by SpartanChas, 23 June 2014 - 09:54.

[Jejking]

Stop the whining. That's respectively 2 and 1 years ago. They've been in it for 21 years. Suddenly it doesn't seem so bad eh?

[Jackmancer]

How they've slipped since snubbing Red Bull and signing Raikkonen instead of Bernoldi.

[Mart280]

I like Monisha (is it wrong for me to fancy her a bit )  I don't think you can lay the blame for a poor car at her door and you definitely cant blame her for a radio cock up, like someone else said these things start to happen when morale starts to take a hit, saw it at Williams with their poor cars in 2011 and 2013, but also look at Williams now for the opposite effect when they have a good car on their hands, Bottas had a 2.1 second pit stop yesterday and I think last year Williams pit crew where in front of only Caterham and Marrussia. Not sure where the answer lies for Sauber but I wish them luck.

[redreni]

How they've slipped since snubbing Red Bull and signing Raikkonen instead of Bernoldi.

 

Kimi was off somewhere having an ice-cream, presumably, when that picture was taken?

 

I take the point that they've had a few results more recently, and nearly won a race with Perez. But they were fourth in 2001, and in 2012 they had less than half as many points as the team that finished fourth, so one has to keep things in perspective. And when they were getting competitive results in 2012, although they did find a proper replacement for their Mclaren-bound star driver, they then sacked their other proper driver, Kobayashi, because he didn't bring enough money with him, and that was a large part of the reason why they did so much worse in championship terms the next year.

 

The Hulk scored 50-odd points, compared to the 60-odd that Kobayashi and Perez each scored the previous season, but Gutierrez only managed 6. I don't know how much money he brings in, but it had better be a lot in order to make up for the lost points, lost WCC position and, therefore, lost revenue that comes from such a points deficit. Even this season, if they had two proper drivers instead of one, it might have increased their chances of getting a car to the end at Monaco and not, therefore, languishing behind Marussia in the WCC.

[Jackmancer]

Kimi was off somewhere having an ice-cream, presumably, when that picture was taken?

 

He's on the right front wheel.

[noikeee]

That's a brilliant cock-up, cheers to the OP for bringing this to my attention as I hadn't heard of it. 

 

Not sure what's up with Sauber but it's all gone very wrong this season hasn't it. Underwhelming drivers, nervous unstable car, poor engine, pitlane cock-ups... hard to pin down what's the one cause as it's just a sum of a lot of problems. It's probably their financial troubles but then again do they really have a smaller budget than say Marussia, because they're behind them in the WCC right now and even more worryingly, barely ahead on pace as it is... (at least in qualy Bianchi nearly matched them).

[sesku]

How they've slipped since snubbing Red Bull and signing Raikkonen instead of Bernoldi.

Nothing beat Sauber Petronas livery. love it!

[HaydenFan]

Monisha runs a tight ship.

 

So did Edward Smith. And we all know how his ship did. 

[Burtros]

mountains and mole hills.

 

Its a complete cock up yes, but they do happen from time to time. Made me laugh when I just read that!

[Clatter]

Sauber have plenty of glory days since Raikonnen - arguably their greatest success was the win as BMW-Sauber with Kubica, or the Kobayashi podium at the Japanese GP.

 

Anyway, the radio mixup is pretty dreadful. This is what happens when you put a lawyer in charge of the team instead of a racer.

And what do you attribute the various mistakes other teams have made over the years, who have been led by racers?

[LuckyStrike1]

Wow, does Sauber still race? I had no idea. 

[charly0418]

And what do you attribute the various mistakes other teams have made over the years, who have been led by racers?

 

I think the term "racer" was incorrectly used. The problem is they didn't give the reins to someone with vast experience in motorsport, someone like Boullier, who wasn't in F1 but had tons of experience in juniors

[techspeed]

I think the term "racer" was incorrectly used. The problem is they didn't give the reins to someone with vast experience in motorsport, someone like Boullier, who wasn't in F1 but had tons of experience in juniors

Well Monisha has 15 years experience in management at Sauber, so I would think she would know how to manage the team by now.

[LuckyStrike1]

I think the term "racer" was incorrectly used. The problem is they didn't give the reins to someone with vast experience in motorsport, someone like Boullier, who wasn't in F1 but had tons of experience in juniors

 

Unless she's personally is on the radio handling all the communication with the drivers, takes all the decisions on set-up and strategy and personally handles all the operational management on the race weekends I doubt it's an issue at all that she happens to be a trained lawyer ... 

 

A good manager knows how to hire competent people and delegate. 

[Knot]

The team has only gone downhill since they made Kaltenborn TB. They need to get rid of her while there's still something left to salvage.

[Wiggy]

Did Sauber not sign half the team over to Monisha? He seemed very keen to sign it over to her and slip into the background whilst she led the team into this downward spiral....

[midgrid]

The team has only gone downhill since they made Kaltenborn TB. They need to get rid of her while there's still something left to salvage.

Kaltenborn has been team principal since 2010, and has overseen three years of steady improvement following BMW's withdrawal, followed by an initially disappointing season which was salvaged.  This may be the worst season in Sauber's history, but it's not part of an overall downward trend.

 

The real problem with the team is that ever since BMW's withdrawal, it has failed to secure a title sponsor that is not directly connected to one of its drivers, leaving it with a limited operating budget and a reliance on drivers who bring funding (refer to this year's line-up).  Kaltenborn may be responsible for this failure of the team's commercial side, but I think she has done a good job overall since taking over.

[midgrid]

Did Sauber not sign half the team over to Monisha? He seemed very keen to sign it over to her and slip into the background whilst she led the team into this downward spiral....

She was given a one-third stake in the team in 2012.  Remember that Peter Sauber is now over seventy, and, like Frank Williams, is happy to let the next generation take over, whether it's an actual relative in Williams's case, or just someone who has been with the team for fifteen years and obviously earned everyone's respect in the process in Sauber's.

[Juan Kerr]

http://m.gpupdate.ne...nce-in-austria/

Anybody able to think of finer example of team ineptness?!

What a shambles, the relative glory days of Raikkonen must seem a long while ago

Raikkonen glory days or do you mean Heidfeld? or Kubica, certainly not Raikkonen.

[ApexMouse]

Since when the football fire the manager bullshit get this far into the minds of f1 fans?

[charly0418]

Since when the football fire the manager bullshit get this far into the minds of f1 fans?

 

They're not brigning sponsor $ and the team is falling behind financially, who the hell are we going to blame for that?

[HP]

Peter to do a Ron Dennis and grab his team back?

Again?