150 replies to this topic

[Kingshark]

I have seen plenty of threads discussing the best car of all time, the best driver of all time, the best driver who has never won a WDC. How about which is the best car to have never won a WDC?

 

As I am mostly ignorant about Formula 1 pre-2000, I'll only judge the best non-WDC winning cars of this century.

 

Which is the best car since 2000 which failed to win the WDC? It can be because of any reason: reliability, race operations, driver performance, etc...

 

Here are the obvious candidates:

 

1. 2000 McLaren MP4/15

Driven by Mika Hakkinen and David Coulthard.

17 races

7 wins

7 pole positions

11 fastest laps

 

2. 2003 Williams FW25

Driven by Juan-Pablo Montoya and Ralf Schumacher

16 races

4 wins

4 poles

4 fastest laps.

 

3. 2005 McLaren MP4/20

Driven by Kimi Raikkonen and Juan-Pablo Montoya

18 races

10 wins

8 poles

12 fastest laps

 

4. 2006 Ferrari F248

Driven by Michael Schumacher and Felipe Massa

18 races

9 wins

7 poles

9 fastest laps

 

5. 2007 McLaren MP4/22

Driven by Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso

17 races

8 wins

8 pole positions

5 fastest laps

 

6. 2008 Ferrari F2008

Driven by Felipe Massa and Kimi Raikkonen

18 races

8 wins

8 poles

13 fastest laps

 

7. 2009 Red Bull RB5

Driven by Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber

17 races

6 wins

5 poles

6 fastest laps

 

8 2012 McLaren MP4-27

Driven by Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button

20 races

7 wins

8 poles

3 fastest laps

[Kimiraikkonen]

No doubt the MP 4-22 was the best car non WDC. MP 4-20 was even more quick but wasn´t reliable.

[Kingshark]

I personally voted for the Ferrari F2008 although after some rethink I might have changed my vote to the 2006 Ferrari F248.

[sennafan24]

I personally voted for the Ferrari F2008 although after some rethink I might have changed my vote to the 2006 Ferrari F248.

They are my 2 candidates 

[sopa]

Tough choice.

 

In terms of raw speed MP4/20. I mean they absolutely dominated most of the season and clearly Raikkonen lost the WDC only through reliability. There is no other so clear-cut case even if in Massa's case in 2008 it is argued he lost the WDC while DNFing twice from the lead, but the car was never consistently so fast and above its counterparts in this department.

 

In terms of overall package it is more complicated. Some of these cars were very good - both fast and consistent, but their problem was that they found a rival, who had at least an equally high level of speed/reliability package and just pipped the losing team in points. MP4/22 case in point.

 

MP4/15 was very good and fast, perhaps with best aerodynamics. Though Hakkinen suffered 3 DNF-s.

F248 was very fast in the second half of the year, but was all too consistently lagging behind Alonso for half a year, enabling the Spaniard to collect 4 consecutive wins at one point.

 

In both cases we had two teams, who were performing superbly all through the year at a very high level with basically no other team getting a look in.

 

2003, 2008 and 2009 seasons were unique, because while those cars were very fast at times, they didn't have the consistency and all-round package. Those seasons were a mess anyway with all the contenders being inconsistent. It is sometimes said "nobody wanted to win the titles in these years, but somebody had to in the end!" 1999 would fall into the same category if it was an option. Basically the same about 2012. McLaren was fast, but not consistently and wasn't reliable enough either, so it gets left out.

 

I think F2008 is the best choice from the last group, but it had a bit of a weakness in wet conditions and had some reliability issues.

Edited by sopa, 24 June 2014 - 20:53.

[HoldenRT]

I agree with the poll.

[sosidge]

I say F2008, the only one on there that was clearly the best car, but let down by the drivers (and to an extent, the lack of a clear #2 in the team).

[Lights]

Very good thread and poll. All of these cars could have won the constructors championship with some 'could, would & should haves'. Wait, didn't Ferrari actually win the constructors championship in 2008? I think I voted too soon. Anyway in 2009 I felt the drivers of Red Bull threw too many chances away. I also guess you could say the 2007 MP4/22 is the best of them because it did actually score more points than anyone, despite of the team sabotaging themselves. But it was also disqualified for a reason... I wouldn't go for the 2006 Ferrari F248 because with all respect to Alonso, Schumacher was in his top form back then and would have taken it. The 2005 McLaren MP4/20 was simply too unreliable, which is a big part of being the 'best'. So I would actually go for the Ferrari F2008. 

[sopa]

Some comparison

 

2000 McLaren - 204 pts in 17 races (re-calculated into 10-8 system)

2003 Williams - 144 pts in 16 races

2005 McLaren - 182 pts in 19 races

2006 Ferrari - 201 pts in 18 races

2007 McLaren - 218/203/0 pts in 17 races

2008 Ferrari - 172 pts in 18 races

2009 Red Bull - 153.5 pts in 17 races

2012 McLaren - 150 pts in 19 races (re-calculated into 10-8 system).

 

Obviously 2007 McLaren looks very good in this comparison though as we know they had two excellent drivers as well that year. But in addition 2000 and 2006 both look very good here, only pipped by rivals who were just a little bit even better.

 

It is worth remembering that in 2000 McLaren lost more points through disqualifications - Coulthard's second in Brazil. And Hakkinen's win in Austria didn't count for constructors championship.

Edited by sopa, 24 June 2014 - 21:14.

[GoldenColt]

I'd go for the F248. Car started off as more or less clearly inferior to the R26, but from Imola on every single update they put on that car made them faster and faster (something Ferrari are not able to do anymore these days). From Indy on it was the car to beat and at the end of the season it was pretty much unbeatable, even in the hands of Massa. I wonder what Schumi would have been able to do with it in Suzuka and Interlagos, had it not been for the engine-failure and the fuel pump-issue.

Edited by GoldenColt, 24 June 2014 - 21:34.

[malik]

Has to be the MP4/27. Had the team not fouled up so much with reliability and pit stop troubles Hamilton might have won the WDC!

[charly0418]

2012 Sauber! best aero car that year

[HamiltonFanboy]

Ferrari F2008 for me. Ferrari had fixed the mechanical grip issue of the previous car so it had an advantage over the MP4-23 in high speed and low speed corners. Had numerous dominant weekends with no competition. I think an on form Raikkonen walks to the title in that car. His poor form and some truly awful wet weather drives from both him and Massa gave Lewis the title. In the dry McLaren only had the best car at Melbourne and China in my opinion.

 

F248, MP4-15 and the MP4-22 were all great cars but had rival cars that were pretty much on par.

 

MP4-20 was by far the fastest car on that list but suffered from crippling reliability. MP4-27 was inconsistent. Unbeatable some places, useless at others backed up by a terrible team.

 

RB5 was good when everything settled down but I dont think you can make a case for it being better than the Brawn.

 

FW25 had 2 competitors but was a good car and should of won the title imo.

[KavB]

2007 McLaren. It was quick but more importantly it was bullet proof. 

[travbrad]

I'm not sure you can really consider the MP4/20 the "best car" that didn't win the WDC.  Sure it was probably the fastest car on this list (relative to its competition), but it was also very unreliable.  For me the reliability is part of what makes a car "best".

[August]

I honestly think MP4/27 was the best car of 2012 and that was a wasted chance.

 

I could say none of the other cars to have been the best car of a season. Maybe fastest but not best because of bad reliability.

[Skinnyguy]

The fastest was the MP4/20. But it´s nonsense to vote it the best. That one is a tough call between MP4/22 and F2008. Both of these should have been championship winning cars. 

 

2012 McLaren is hard to judge, because one car was very reliable and the other really was not. Taking the approach of averaging it, don´t think it´s as good as the ones I mention before.

[Kingshark]

A strong argument can be made that every WDC from 2006 to 2008 was won in the 2nd best car.

 

Some will also argue that 2005 should be in there, but the reliability difference was far too great. The MP4/20 was the fastest car relative to its competition though.

 

In 2009 I don't think that the Brawn was as clear cut above the rest as some claim, but it was still the best car overall.

 

2012 the McLaren was inconsistent and unreliable, and although it was overall the fastest car of the season, not the best.

 

In 2003 Williams had the speed of Ferrari, but not the reliability. Montoya's 2 mechanical failures also came at the worst possible time.

 

As for 2000, McLaren was the fastest car of the season but not as reliable as the near bullet-proof Ferrari.

Edited by Kingshark, 24 June 2014 - 23:40.

[George Costanza]

2000 and 2008.

 

In 2000, McLaren was the better car. If it wasn't for Michael's very strong finish in the end, it would have won easily. And, no that Ferrari was not bullet proof as the 2001-2004 ones were. Schumacher had several DNFs that season. Mika could have finished ahead of Michael in Japan, and then who knows at Sepang....

 

2006 was an evenly matched contest, except Ferrari being quicker toward the second half of season.

 

2008: That Ferrari should have walked it rather quickly.

Edited by George Costanza, 25 June 2014 - 00:01.

[HaydenFan]

Out of that list, the McLaren from '05. But in general, of the past 15 years, the early 2000's Williams where the best cars competing against Ferrari. 

[f1RacingForever]

Was going to vote for the MP4-20 based on speed then i remembered it asked for the BEST car so reliability has to be considered which makes the f2008 my vote. It was the best car that year and should have won the wdc if not for some average driving and ill timed mistakes from the team. Honorable mention to the MP4-22. Would have won the wdc if not for Alonso and Hamilton constantly taking points off each other. Heck, if not for the freak transmission glich in Brazil, it would have won too.

[teejay]

Its kinda sad reading that as a McLaren fan.

[George Costanza]

Out of that list, the McLaren from '05. But in general, of the past 15 years, the early 2000's Williams where the best cars competing against Ferrari. 

 

I disagree with this.

 

2000 and 2001 seasons.. McLaren was better than Williams. 2002 was a season Williams got the better end of McLaren versus Ferrari. 2003 was a very good season by all.

 

I am a little surprised no mentioend for the 2003 McLaren MP17-D. That could have won the championship too.

[Kingshark]

I am a little surprised no mentioend for the 2003 McLaren MP17-D. That could have won the championship too.

 

I would rate that car on the same level relative to the competitors as the two other 2010 contenders: Ferrari F10 or McLaren MP4/25.

 

Good, but not good enough to make the cut for this poll.

[Alexandros]

MP4/16 (2001) as a car - not car/engine combo.

 

Reliability aside, this car had to contend with 1998 levels of horsepower due to the Be-ban that affected the Mercedes engine tremendously. Still, it had loads of mechanical grip and excellent aero. Yet it managed 4.99 victories (Hakkinen blew up in last lap of Barcelona).

 

Given the lack of HP, personally I find it one of the most impressive and under-appreciated cars that A.N. built.

 

From the list, the 2012 Mclaren was massive btw, but unreliable. But still it doesn't impress me as much because it didn't have to fight for a massive HP handicap.

Edited by Alexandros, 25 June 2014 - 01:51.

[Thomas99]

Got to be the 2008 Ferrari as it was the best car that year it just lacked the driver pair.

 

The 2005 and 2012 McLaren's were both the fastest car, but lacked reliability.

Edited by Thomas99, 25 June 2014 - 01:56.

[Atreiu]

It can't be any of those that were to unreliable for the WDC/WCC challenge. Unless you guys count what you think would have happened instead of strictly what did happen and real race results.

 

I'll vote for the F2008 because it was good enough for the WCC but the teams and drivers made too many mistakes. Despite being gifted a robbed race.

[Atreiu]

And the MP4-27 really shouldn't be there. Besides unreliable, there were several weekends in which it was nowhere competitive and close to winning.

 

edit.

Edited by Atreiu, 25 June 2014 - 03:56.

[Kingshark]

And the MP4-27 really should be there. Besides unreliable, there were several weekends in which it was nowhere competitive and close to winning.

 

Thankfully it is. 

 

In all seriousness, if you are implying that the MP4-27 shouldn't be there - well it was still the fastest car of the season overall by a slight margin over Red Bull. I would say that warrants its position to be up there, even if the car was inconsistent.

 

I didn't vote for the MP4-27 either though.

[ollebompa]

MP4/22. Put a clear number two in that team that year and their number 1 could have had 10 race wins.

[George Costanza]

MP4/22. Put a clear number two in that team that year and their number 1 could have had 10 race wins.

 

You mean if McLaren had Fred and Pedro?

 

Yeah I could see that.

[Atreiu]

You mean if McLaren had Fred and Pedro?

 

Yeah I could see that.

 

What if Ferrari had Fred and Pedro?

[ollebompa]

You mean if McLaren had Fred and Pedro?

Yeah I could see that.

Something like that, yes.

[CoolBreeze]

Ferrari F2008. 

 

Fast, beautiful, reliable. Perfect package. Just bad decisions cost the title/ 

[AnR]

Has to be 2007 McLaren, even the driver said it was the best car.

[Jackmancer]

I'd like to add the 2001 Sauber (C20) and 2002 Arrows (A23). These where superb cars by these ickle teams. 

[hollowstar]

In my opinion it was the MP4-22. The poll is asking for the "best", not fastest, so in my opinion, the MP4-22 was not only extremely fast, but also one of the most reliable cars McLaren made in recent years. 

[Jimisgod]

1. McLaren 2007
= Ferrari 2008
= Ferrari 2006
4. Williams 2003
5. Williams 2001
6. Red Bull 2009
7. McLaren 2000
8. McLaren 2001
9. McLaren 2005
10. McLaren 2012

[Kingshark]

MP4/22. Put a clear number two in that team that year and their number 1 could have had 10 race wins.

 

Couldn't you say the same about the F2007? With a clear #2 in that car, the Ferrari #1 too could have won 10 races.

Edited by Kingshark, 25 June 2014 - 05:32.

[Jimisgod]

2012 Sauber! best aero car that year

The McLaren and Ferrari were lightyears ahead.

[Kingshark]

My personal ranking of the top 8 in my poll would go like this:

 

1. 2008 Ferrari F2008

2. 2006 Ferrari F248

3. 2007 McLaren MP4/22

...

4. 2000 McLaren MP4/15

5. 2003 Williams FW25

6. 2009 Red Bull RB5

7. 2005 McLaren MP4/20 (in terms of speed alone it's #1)

8. 2012 McLaren MP4-27

[MetallurgicalHedonist]

My personal ranking of the top 8 in my poll would go like this:

1. 2008 Ferrari F2008
2. 2006 Ferrari F248
3. 2007 McLaren MP4/22
...
4. 2000 McLaren MP4/15
5. 2003 Williams FW25
6. 2009 Red Bull RB5
7. 2005 McLaren MP4/20 (in terms of speed alone it's #1)
8. 2012 McLaren MP4-27

Even if 2012 McLaren is correctly last in your list, it somehow doesn't belong to that list. I mean, to be named with the 2000 or 2005 McLaren... kinda odd (Button was much more nowhere, if you consider not self induced DNFs than Montoya or Coulthard in 2005 or 2000. I mean, if you consider that under those corrected conditions the gap to the respective no.1 driver was quite bigger in 2012 and Button is certainly not weaker than Coulthard, in general, then... it tells a lot about the 2012 McLaren).

And I don't know why there's such a gap between third and fourth-best cars. If we consider how Alonso performs/performed against Raikkonen and Massa as a teammate, then there are a few questions to be answered regarding the gap between the third and fourth-best car.

Maybe the bigger gap you made between 3. and 4. should be made between 7. and 8.

Oh, and somehow I think that maybe the RB5 was a tad better than the 2003 BMW-Williams. But that's only a minor issue.

If, however, the title of this discussion was, "best car where the driver didn't become WDC from 1990-now", it would've been very easy:

hands down, the 1991 Williams, by a mile.

[Jejking]

The 1991 Williams wasn't as bulletproof as the 2007 Mac though. While it came really good in terms of raw speed (it wasn't dominating from the start), it was nowhere as reliable as later cars.

[pokerkid]

Surprised the 2007 Mclaren is leading when it was not even the fastest car that year.

[New Britain]

Honorable mention to the MP4-22. Would have won the wdc if not for Alonso and Hamilton constantly taking points off each other. Heck, if not for the freak transmission glich in Brazil, it would have won too.

 

If not for Mosley's intercession at Hungary in 2007, when he over-ruled the stewards and penalised Alonso 5 places on the starting grid, Alonso would have finished ahead of both Raikkonen and Hamilton in WDC.

[1Devil1]

Surprised the 2007 Mclaren is leading when it was not even the fastest car that year.

 

You understood the question right? Best non-winning car. The McLaren 2007 was a hell of a car. McLaren destroyed their titles hopes itself by not focusing on one driver

[KavB]

Although the F2008 was the fastest car that year, I think it is arguable whether it can be considered the best (for that particular season at least). When the competition is a car which had zero DNFs (in the lead car), then even one DNF for the Ferrari can be hugely damaging. Hamilton scored 14 points in the two races where Massa had an engine failure. Even if the F2008 was capable of getting 1-2s consistently like the Mercedes this year (which I don't think it was), it would have taken 3 wins with Raikkonen 2nd and Hamilton third and another win with Hamilton 2nd to mitigate that deficit. I think the speed advantage they had that year was balanced by their DNFs and the title ultimately became about who made the least mistakes. 

 

I think this season has highlighted the damage that a DNF can have. 

[Seanspeed]

Good thread.

MP4-22 was obviously a great car, but it was also being driven by the two best drivers in the sport, which certainly flattered it some. I'm quite shocked that people, still to this day, even seeing what guys like Alonso and Lewis can do, fail to recognize this.

MP4-20 was blindingly quick once a few early issues were sorted, but it was too unreliable to win this poll for me.

FW25 was easily championship capable in better hands, and is a possible choice.

MP4-27 was extremely good most of the time, but it did have a very narrow window of performance that meant it was conspicuously average at times.

F248 certainly deserves consideration.

But I'm gonna have to go with the F2008. Quite easily, actually. I don't think it was just a great non-WDC winning car, I think it was actually the very best car of the year full-stop. MP4-22 in 2007 had the F2007 beat with mechanical traction, but the F2008 was far better in this regard, showing great performance at places like Monaco and Hungary and Singapore. McLaren had closed the gap with the aero some and even with the engine, but the Ferrari was still the better car more often than not after halfway through the season. Its a bit of a travesty that it didn't win the WDC that year, quite honestly. You could see where the MP4-23 really was in Heikki's hands(who only finished 7th in the standings), so I'd actually say the F2008 was the dominant car that season.

[Seanspeed]

Although the F2008 was the fastest car that year, I think it is arguable whether it can be considered the best (for that particular season at least). When the competition is a car which had zero DNFs (in the lead car), then even one DNF for the Ferrari can be hugely damaging. Hamilton scored 14 points in the two races where Massa had an engine failure. Even if the F2008 was capable of getting 1-2s consistently like the Mercedes this year (which I don't think it was), it would have taken 3 wins with Raikkonen 2nd and Hamilton third and another win with Hamilton 2nd to mitigate that deficit. I think the speed advantage they had that year was balanced by their DNFs and the title ultimately became about who made the least mistakes. 
 
I think this season has highlighted the damage that a DNF can have.

Its not like Lewis had some trouble-free season, though.

He ran into the back of Alonso in Bahrain and scored no points. He ran into the back of Kimi in Canada and scored no points. He got a penalty in France and scored no points. He had his win taken away from him in Spa. And then collided with Massa in Japan, scoring no points.

The few problems Ferrari had were no excuse.

[discover23]

1. F2008. This car had WDC & WCC written all over it. Only a team error (Singapore) prevented Massa from becoming champion this year.

 

2. F248. One too many errors by Shumi against a flawless Alonso cost him the title. This car had one more win than the R26. Massa also came ahead of Fisi in the standings with 2 wins and 7 podiums against 1 win and 5 podiums from Fisi.

 

3. MP4/20 - Perhaps the fastest car ever to never win a title. The poor reliability of this car let its drivers down too many times.. Kimi in qualy and JPM during races..