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Why is WEC killing Formula 1?


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#1 Kenstate

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 04:14

It's only been a recent trend, but a very noticeable one. Formula 1 viewership and interest is down, the racing product and experience is the worst it's ever been, despite the EXTREMELY expensive new regulations they've only been able to attract 1 new manufacturer (honda) and lost one in cosworth, skyrocketing costs and longstanding teams threatening to pull out at any moment's notice. Meanwhile, WEC has attracted audi, porsche, ferrari, ford, mazda, mclaren and even honda in recent rumors. Interest level has trending upwards, and the race experience, the aesthetics of the cars and even the sound is better than F1 at the moment. 

 

F1 keeps making calls to cut costs, cut costs, cut costs at the expense of track testing and restrictive engineering regulations. Yet, as far as I can tell, WEC teams don't have any such restrictions. Teams in WEC have way more testing time and days than F1. They are also not restricted to V6 hybrid turbos (eg toyota runs a 3.7 NA V8, Audi runs a V6 turbodiesel, porsche runs a inline 4 cylinder etc). WEC racers even seem to have more lax regulations regarding aerodynamic components of the cars. 

 

And despite all of this, somehow, why is it still cheaper to run WEC than it is to run formula 1? can someone explain this to me? I thought restricting design freedoms and freezing development was helping save formula 1 money, but WEC is going completely in the opposite direction and prospering better than ever. Their cars are new, road relevant and exciting while f1 has been making their cars uniformly slower and uglier.



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#2 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 04:43

Good points.

 

I think there is a de facto budget cap in WEC, as Toyota, Audi et al all share the common interest of going motor racing in an affordable way...  Toyota are especially cautious given past experiences and Audi prize the cost effective nature of sportscar racing highly.... I'm sure if Ferrari came in with a $500m/season budget, then the others would give up as they have no interest to spend so much money for the chance to be competitive.



#3 Ricciardo2014

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 06:53

I wouldn't say it's killing it just yet.

Sure F1 is experiencing a downturn in viewing, but I think most of that is Bernie being a prick and asking us to pay to watch. 

 

My interest in WEC is high this year due to the fact I'm a long time Webber fan.

Until Mark announced he was heading there I'd never been fully interested in watching such long races.

I'm glad I have decided to tune in though.

I watched almost all of the 24 hour with only a couple of power naps and absolutely loved it !

 

Funnily enough I have quite a few friends who aren't that interested in motor sport, that have decided to watch WEC this year simply because they heard Webber was headed there as well.

 

I think if they continue to attract new teams, and possibly add a few more races per season they will definitely give F1 a shake up over the next few years ! 



#4 Shiroo

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:23

WEC has 2 qualities that it is better for manufacturers than F1:

- no banning on each new solution, and as many bans as in F1

- they can test solutions that might be used one day in road cars

 

Few more manufacturers and it might be the best racing series. What is the most amazing, that even with 24h race, even in the last hour there is SOOO much on the track. Almost every race now, the last hour is deciding the winner.


Edited by Shiroo, 25 June 2014 - 07:23.


#5 Kenstate

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:24

Good points.

 

I think there is a de facto budget cap in WEC, as Toyota, Audi et al all share the common interest of going motor racing in an affordable way...  Toyota are especially cautious given past experiences and Audi prize the cost effective nature of sportscar racing highly.... I'm sure if Ferrari came in with a $500m/season budget, then the others would give up as they have no interest to spend so much money for the chance to be competitive.

 

So how do they enforce that budget cap? because if I'm not mistaken, f1 has been trying to implement for years but dropped the idea because there was no feasible way to monitor it......

 

I'd much rather see an enforced budget cap rather than force increasing amounts of engineering restrictions



#6 Ali_G

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:28

Maybe its because WEC isn't killing itself.



#7 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:30

Maybe we should answer the question "Is WEC killing F1?" first.

 

Personally I think the on track product in F1 is better this year than it's been in a good decade at least, thanks to an good formula. The sporting regs are going down the drain but the tech regs have turned out good.

 

When WEC starts getting serious attention outside Le Mans, then it'll start killing F1.



#8 Nemo1965

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:34

It's only been a recent trend, but a very noticeable one. Formula 1 viewership and interest is down,

 

We don't know, because more and more people are watching via the internet, and it is my assumption that more and more people refuse to pay per view or watch in on television, one for the money, the other for the irritating commercials. I watch F1 either through a VPN-server or via free streams. So, in essence, F1 has lost me as a viewer statistically. But I am still watching. There are many, many hidden watchers like me, I am sure.

 

 

The racing product and experience is the worst it's ever been

 

That is your opinion. In my opinion this is the best season since a long time, regarding watching and having fun. I have been watching F1 of and on between 1973 (yeah, I am that old), I've watched almost every race either live or via youtube and stuff like that, I've worked as a journalist in motorsport, I have interviewed many F1 drivers. I am just one guy but my opinion is worth as much as yours.

 

 

despite the EXTREMELY expensive new regulations they've only been able to attract 1 new manufacturer (honda) and lost one in cosworth, skyrocketing costs

 

That is true, but we will get back to that.

 

Interest level has trending upwards, and the race experience, the aesthetics of the cars and even the sound is better than F1 at the moment. 
 

 

Bold true, measurable. Rest: your opinion and that of many others, but not true neccesarily.

 

 

F1 keeps making calls to cut costs, cut costs, cut costs at the expense of track testing and restrictive engineering regulations. Yet, as far as I can tell, WEC teams don't have any such restrictions. Teams in WEC have way more testing time and days than F1. They are also not restricted to V6 hybrid turbos (eg toyota runs a 3.7 NA V8, Audi runs a V6 turbodiesel, porsche runs a inline 4 cylinder etc). WEC racers even seem to have more lax regulations regarding aerodynamic components of the cars. 

 

And despite all of this, somehow, why is it still cheaper to run WEC than it is to run formula 1? can someone explain this to me? I thought restricting design freedoms and freezing development was helping save formula 1 money, but WEC is going completely in the opposite direction and prospering better than ever. Their cars are new, road relevant and exciting while f1 has been making their cars uniformly slower and uglier.

 

Well, that is an interesting point, and I fear that has a purely historic reason. The Dutch sociologist Jan Romein called it 'De Wet van de remmende voorsprong.' That is Dutch for: the law of the disadvantageous advantage.'

 

F1 always has had more money than endurance-racing. It was not so long ago, that endurance-racing (let's call it WEC for simplicity sake, though it was called differently) was on its bum. Manufacturers were not interested, pulled out. The return of Audi could be succesfull because the field had gotten so thin. That brought back Peugeot, which brought back.... Meanwhile, in F1 the spendingwar started around 1970, when Lotus attracted a sigaretsponsor, and that spendingwar has been growing and growing like an abject baloon (you got that right). Williams F1 in 1980 could dominate with about 20 million dollar (back then). That would be 57 million dollars now. Which is about the budget of Marussia. Red Bull spents about 250 million dollar per year.

 

So WEC is only starting (again) with its spendingwar. They are back about twenty years in aspect, on their curve. What is the budget for the leading WEC team (I don't know). I guess about 75 million a year? Of course the WEC does not need budgetcaps. If the WEC teams spend as much money a year as F1 teams, then it becomes interesting.

 

Regarding the aerodynamic regulations: WEC and F1 are very different beasts. To win in WEC you need reliability over a distance 8 to 12 times more than a F1 car. Fuel-consumption is more important than fuel-efficiency. F1 teams are designed to race very fast for a short time. Give the designers of F1 a free hand and drivers would need kevlar implants in their necks to survive the strain.

 

I agree, however with one point: the FIA should give more freedom regarding engines and aero. But that is not the FIA's fault, but the teams fault. Because if the FIA suggest to the WEC to curb the power of some engines, the teams of WEC work out an agreement. If the FIA would ask the same in F1, they have a bloody war on their hands.


Edited by Nemo1965, 25 June 2014 - 07:40.


#9 Ali_G

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:34

Maybe we should answer the question "Is WEC killing F1?" first.

 

Personally I think the on track product in F1 is better this year than it's been in a good decade at least, thanks to an good formula. The sporting regs are going down the drain but the tech regs have turned out good.

 

When WEC starts getting serious attention outside Le Mans, then it'll start killing F1.

 

The F1 sporting reg have essentially turned it from a sport into some sort of sports entertainment series.  Its up there with WWF I'll give it that.



#10 Kenstate

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:38

WEC has 2 qualities that it is better for manufacturers than F1:

- no banning on each new solution, and as many bans as in F1

- they can test solutions that might be used one day in road cars

 

Few more manufacturers and it might be the best racing series. What is the most amazing, that even with 24h race, even in the last hour there is SOOO much on the track. Almost every race now, the last hour is deciding the winner.

 

yeah, but i was just more wondering why WEC can have all these awesome things and technical engineering freedom but still only cost a fraction of F1. even though F1 is basically turning into a spec series now with no testing



#11 Gyno

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:39

F1 shoot themself in foot all the time with stupid rule changes and ugly cars.

 

Too restricted, everyone forced to build the same engine and then get stuck with a P o S engine for the entire year like Ferrari and Renault because they got it wrong.

Add to that the stupid hybrid system everyone have to use instead of letting them develope their own system and upgrade it through out the year and get more power from it and so on.



#12 SenorSjon

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:49

In F1, everyone spends their money on the same solution, whereas in WEC, everyone spends money for their own solution.

 

I still don't get the testing ban. Teams like Ferrari used on-track testing like other teams used a wind tunnel. It isn't that F1 is any cheaper over the years since the testing ban. The PU rules are one thing, but when you see the money thrown at a front wing it is almost hilarious. And last season, most of the time, a damaged front wing didn't warrant a change due to it's minimal effects.

 

But you notice other things. Like tires lasting a few stints and hardly any visible marbles.



#13 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:58

yeah, but i was just more wondering why WEC can have all these awesome things and technical engineering freedom but still only cost a fraction of F1. even though F1 is basically turning into a spec series now with no testing

 

Because they don't need to spend the same levels as F1 to win in WEC!  And they are there because it is relatively affordable IMO.

 

If it cost $600m to win Le Mans then Audi would quit and Toyota would quit and .......



#14 Ali_G

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:58

In F1, everyone spends their money on the same solution, whereas in WEC, everyone spends money for their own solution.

 

I still don't get the testing ban. Teams like Ferrari used on-track testing like other teams used a wind tunnel. It isn't that F1 is any cheaper over the years since the testing ban. The PU rules are one thing, but when you see the money thrown at a front wing it is almost hilarious. And last season, most of the time, a damaged front wing didn't warrant a change due to it's minimal effects.

 

But you notice other things. Like tires lasting a few stints and hardly any visible marbles.

 

No matter what F1 has done with engineering restrictions and long life parts, it simply hasn't helped in cutting costs.  The teams will find a place for money to be spent and this extra spend always seems to give the bigger spending teams a performance advantage.

 

Its time for budget caps but a lot of teams will not agree to them. 



#15 Kenstate

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:59

 

F1 always has had more money than endurance-racing. It was not so long ago, that endurance-racing (let's call it WEC for simplicity sake, though it was called differently) was on its bum. Manufacturers were not interested, pulled out. The return of Audi could be succesfull because the field had gotten so thin. That brought back Peugeot, which brought back.... Meanwhile, in F1 the spendingwar started around 1970, when Lotus attracted a sigaretsponsor, and that spendingwar has been growing and growing like an abject baloon (you got that right). Williams F1 in 1980 could dominate with about 20 million dollar (back then). That would be 57 million dollars now. Which is about the budget of Marussia. Red Bull spents about 250 million dollar per year.

 

 

I agree, however with one point: the FIA should give more freedom regarding engines and aero. But that is not the FIA's fault, but the teams fault. Because if the FIA suggest to the WEC to curb the power of some engines, the teams of WEC work out an agreement. If the FIA would ask the same in F1, they have a bloody war on their hands.

 

here's kind of a stupid quesiton: why does it necessitate an increase in spending for F1 though? they're throwing around stupid money for extremely marginal returns. Is it simply a case of inflation? or do teams just have too much money lying around, so they just throw it at anything?

 

It seems to me that if they laxed the rules *just* a little bit, that would give the smaller teams more latitude to be competitive because they might be able to exploit something the larger teams haven't. Instead what we have now is ferrari throwing 500 million euros at increasing the performance of a bolt nut because the rules have effectively curtailed development everywhere else.



#16 Ksharp

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:59

It's not killing it. WEC could be extremely boring to watch sometimes. A lot more than any other motor racing series. 



#17 john_smith

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:00

In F1, everyone spends their money on the same solution, whereas in WEC, everyone spends money for their own solution.

 

This is very important and part of the problem in F1's current rules.

 

Applied to the context of adopting the technologies road car use that was already mentioned in this thread, suddenly WEC becomes much more attractive to manufactures. Although they're still spending millions, they're spending the money on their own solutions that they have control over, and therefore they can assess whether the solutions can lead to road car relevancy.

 

That's how car manufactures can justify spending their money - not only is it a marketing exercise, the R&D has the potential to yield returns that is impossible in F1.

 

Looks are subjective, but I think F1 is already on its backfoot when its fans have to explain to the casual viewer why the cars look so awkward (e.g. protruding nose), whereas WEC prototypes need no such explanation.


Edited by john_smith, 25 June 2014 - 08:01.


#18 AlexLangheck

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:00

Maybe we should answer the question "Is WEC killing F1?" first.

 

Personally I think the on track product in F1 is better this year than it's been in a good decade at least, thanks to an good formula. The sporting regs are going down the drain but the tech regs have turned out good.

 

When WEC starts getting serious attention outside Le Mans, then it'll start killing F1.

This is the biggest issue. At the moment it's Le Mans - and some other supporting races... none of the others are 'classic' races; no Sebring or Petit Le Mans.... just 6 hour races on F1 tracks. I'd like to see a 10/12 hour race, plus maybe a 3 hour race to start the season. Variety....



#19 Lazy

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:00

It's only been a recent trend, but a very noticeable one. Formula 1 viewership and interest is down, the racing product and experience is the worst it's ever been, despite the EXTREMELY expensive new regulations they've only been able to attract 1 new manufacturer (honda) and lost one in cosworth, skyrocketing costs and longstanding teams threatening to pull out at any moment's notice. Meanwhile, WEC has attracted audi, porsche, ferrari, ford, mazda, mclaren and even honda in recent rumors. Interest level has trending upwards, and the race experience, the aesthetics of the cars and even the sound is better than F1 at the moment. 

 

F1 keeps making calls to cut costs, cut costs, cut costs at the expense of track testing and restrictive engineering regulations. Yet, as far as I can tell, WEC teams don't have any such restrictions. Teams in WEC have way more testing time and days than F1. They are also not restricted to V6 hybrid turbos (eg toyota runs a 3.7 NA V8, Audi runs a V6 turbodiesel, porsche runs a inline 4 cylinder etc). WEC racers even seem to have more lax regulations regarding aerodynamic components of the cars. 

 

And despite all of this, somehow, why is it still cheaper to run WEC than it is to run formula 1? can someone explain this to me? I thought restricting design freedoms and freezing development was helping save formula 1 money, but WEC is going completely in the opposite direction and prospering better than ever. Their cars are new, road relevant and exciting while f1 has been making their cars uniformly slower and uglier.

Maybe because WEC moved into ERS earlier and so attracted more manufacturers which is undoubtedly why WEC is more popular this year. 

 

Manufacturers will be coming to F1 soon.



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#20 Kenstate

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:00

Because they don't need to spend the same levels as F1 to win in WEC!  And they are there because it is relatively affordable IMO.

 

If it cost $600m to win Le Mans then Audi would quit and Toyota would quit and .......

 

what dictates the cost (or i should say the DIFFERENCE in cost) though? personally, i think some of the technologies being pioneered in WEC is on the same level of cutting edge as F1.


Edited by Kenstate, 25 June 2014 - 08:03.


#21 SenorSjon

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:02

No matter what F1 has done with engineering restrictions and long life parts, it simply hasn't helped in cutting costs.  The teams will find a place for money to be spent and this extra spend always seems to give the bigger spending teams a performance advantage.

 

Its time for budget caps but a lot of teams will not agree to them. 

 

A F1 team will spend whatever they get their hands on. But it is a famous story about the development of very expensive wheelnuts (which then fell off ;))

 

Problem now is, when you are behind in the winter, you can't make it up in the summer due to development. I would love to see what engineers could think of with less restr

 

Maybe because WEC moved into ERS earlier and so attracted more manufacturers which is undoubtedly why WEC is more popular this year. 

 

Manufacturers will be coming to F1 soon.

 

I think it is the freedom they have in how to implement it. Porsche, Audi and Toyota have very different systems, but getting the same result (2/6 MJ). In F1, the rules on the MGU-alphabet are very strict, just like the engine rules are very strict.

 

We should have never have gone past 1 engine/weekend. It is the dragging around of grid penalties that is killing qualifying and it will get worse once the 5 parts are spend later in the season.


Edited by SenorSjon, 25 June 2014 - 08:07.


#22 SenorSjon

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:06

Double


Edited by SenorSjon, 25 June 2014 - 08:06.


#23 Ali_G

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:07

A F1 team will spend whatever they get their hands on. But it is a famous story about the development of very expensive wheelnuts (which then fell off ;))

 

Problem now is, when you are behind in the winter, you can't make it up in the summer due to development. I would love to see what engineers could think of with less restrictive rules.

 

Bring in a budget cap.  Budget cap is limited to car development.  Bring in a separate cap for capital spending (facility development) and put no cap at all on entertainment, advertising etc.

 

Other quirks would have to be brought in.  New teams would get a 2 year budget cap exemption in order to catch up.  Teams who score under 10 points one year would be allowed a small addition to the budget cap in the following year in order to help them catch up slightly.

 

A budget cap would allow in season development and would also mean we could get rid of long life engines and gearboxes.  F1 cars should be ragged, on the edge and ready to blow up at any time.  We haven't seen this in F1 for over 10 years at this stage.  One of the joys of F1 used to be wondering which engine was next to go bang.



#24 Kenstate

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:07

Maybe because WEC moved into ERS earlier and so attracted more manufacturers which is undoubtedly why WEC is more popular this year. 

 

Manufacturers will be coming to F1 soon.

 

No doubt ERS is part of it, but I think the biggest issue is the cost of operating a F1 team, and why its so high compared to WEC



#25 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:16

Because they don't need to spend the same levels as F1 to win in WEC!  And they are there because it is relatively affordable IMO.

 

If it cost $600m to win Le Mans then Audi would quit and Toyota would quit and .......

 

Makes me wonder what costs would be like in LMP1 after having a few years of 6+ manufacturers involved.

 

I'm sure that one of the factors that made F1 so expensive was that Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Toyota and Honda were all there trying to beat each other. Half of them left, but with the same number of teams taking part, the need to spend because of competition never went away. It's very difficult to cut back in that situation.

 

LMP1 has been Audi vs. occasional challenger for a number of years. Audi didn't have to spend too much to beat the privateers and Peugeot's short term challenge. But now with Toyota, Porsche and Nissan, plus maybe more, I get the feeling costs will start to go up.



#26 Lazy

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:17

No doubt ERS is part of it, but I think the biggest issue is the cost of operating a F1 team, and why its so high compared to WEC

I'm not so sure about that, both Merc and Renault pretty much much insisted on these PU's which are not cheap, I think road relevance is much more important to these guys than F1 budgets that are still relatively small compared to their PR budgets.



#27 chunder27

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:50

WEC is only about one race

 

End of story

 

F1 is about a whole season, more interest in the drivers, a better circulation of races and better tracks, and a far, far bigger audience.

 

I am getting a bit tired of Le Mans fans thinking the cars that run in their championship are the be all and end all. They sound awful, look hideous and are basically engineering adverts, there is no soul in them.

 

Yes, it's great to have a sports car series in good health, but it is ONLY marketing that is doing this. Where were they ten years ago when all you had was Courage and no hybrid/diesel technology to try and sell to rich exectutives in overproced saloons? All Porsche/Audi/Toyota are trying to do is out tech each other and sell that tech workldwide as THEIR solution. t is great from a technology pooint of view, and great it will be filtered down, but it doesnt make the series any better. F1 has made a monumental change this year, and I believe made far great gains in tech than anythign spors cars have done.

 

It is great tech is being pushed through the series yes, but as a spectacle WEC falls way behind F1, it is too long for the vast majority of fans, the drivers dont really matter.



#28 SenorSjon

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:57

...They sound awful, look hideous and are basically engineering adverts, there is no soul in them....

 

Are you talking about current F1-cars?

 

 

Marketing has always been key, how do you think F1 was brought up? Why do dictators want a F1-GP?



#29 Risil

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:07

WEC has a very very long way to go on the promotional side, no question. Nissan's racing marketing head Darren Cox was on last week's Midweek Motorsport giving a very frank assessment of this. A slick operator, no doubt, but it's great to have someone from within the industry willing to explain things from his company's perspective. Car dealers in the UK do not support the 6 Hours of Silverstone currently, which helps to explain the fact that only the die-hards know it's on.

 

If sportscar racing is going to succeed in the mass market, it'll have to take advantage of the emotional pull these high-end brands have. Porsche and Ferrari have perfected this art. I had a Japanese friend at elementary school who was obsessed with Nissan Skylines. He used to draw them, insist they were the fastest cars in the world, buy racing games mostly on the basis on whether they had Nissans in them. He lives in Japan now and owns a Nissan. He should be going to the Fuji race to wave the flag. And so on.

 

But I think the racing product it has to offer is superior to F1. Same number of manufacturers, bigger grids, more paid drivers, better racing, better fan access, more interesting technological battles.

 

If this sounds like I'm doing down F1 and making a racing: good, promotion: evil sort of division, that's not my intention. Good promotion is what gives the sport its emotional pull. And sport is just as much an emotional activity for spectators as drama or partying or whatever. I bet for someone who's actually involved in club racing, their own particular race with few spectators beyond friends, marshalls and fellow competitors is 100 times more absorbing and memorable than the most intense F1 championship battle. But I don't know it's on, and even if I did, it wouldn't grab me.


Edited by Risil, 25 June 2014 - 09:49.


#30 Nemo1965

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:24

here's kind of a stupid quesiton: why does it necessitate an increase in spending for F1 though? they're throwing around stupid money for extremely marginal returns. Is it simply a case of inflation? or do teams just have too much money lying around, so they just throw it at anything?

 

It seems to me that if they laxed the rules *just* a little bit, that would give the smaller teams more latitude to be competitive because they might be able to exploit something the larger teams haven't. Instead what we have now is ferrari throwing 500 million euros at increasing the performance of a bolt nut because the rules have effectively curtailed development everywhere else.

 

It is a very GOOD question. But that is, both the aforementioned 'Law of the disadvantageous advantage' and 'the law of the diminishing returns'. There is so much common knowledge amongst F1 engineers, there is such 'a body' of knowledge, it is almost impossible to have a brilliant idea and with that beat the competition. All the F1 cars - even the Marussias - are so sophisticated that getting more speed out of them is like trying to get water pressed out of a stone.

 

That used to be different. Take the wingcars of Lotus, the Lotus 78 and Lotus 79. Lotus in 1976 was in deep, deep ****. Chapman had little money. The results were awfull. Then he and his engineers got the idea of a wingcar. Meaning: a car with venturi-channels under the car, skirts, blablabla.

 

Now the interesting part of the wingcar is three-fold.

 

1. Why did not anyone think of this sooner? The Bernouli (?)-effect was known to most engineers. All the engineers in F1 - especially Mauro Foghieri and Gordon Coppuck - were trying to create negative lift under the car or at least a suction effect. But how to really create that, they could not figure it out, even when (see point 2). That says something how simple their ideas were.

 

2. When Lotus finally came up with the 78 in 1977... not one (!) engineer in F1, not one (!) journalist, not (!) pundit said: 'Hey! You know what Lotus have done? They've created downforce with airchannels under the car.' They saw the car... they could even see the underside of the car on several occasions (because Andretti now and then had the tendency to crash). And they did not get it, untill late in 1978... when it was too late.

 

3. Lotus did not understand, fully, the effects of ground-effect. The first wingcar had the downforce too much on the front of the nose. The second wingcar (the 79) was by way not stiff enough to deal with the forces generated. (And when Maurice Philippe and Andretti found out, they talked to Chapman untill they were blue in the face to stiffen the car, but to no avail. Chapman just was not interested in improving the car.)

 

Those days are long behind us. The only engineer, I think, who sometimes can invent things of which the other engineers say 'wtf' is Newey. For example, nobody has yet figured out how the hell he is able to flex the front of the Red Bull car so much. All the other engineers, as you say rightly, have to throw money at the car with very marginal returns.

 

A possible solution? My idea would be:

 

1. A mandatory minimum six cm rideheight, front and rear, electronically controlled by the FIA. This would seriously f@#$ up both underside and upside aerodynamics, making huge investments in aero less profitable and investments in mechanical grip more profitable. And what is the nice thing about suspensions? Anyone could see them and copy them. Ahaaaaaa.

2. Mandatory single-element front wing. Clearly.

3. Big rear wheels (as Gary Anderson suggested, and Pirelli). More stable cars, bigger wakes in the rear, all clear.

4. Ten year rule-stability, NO CHANGES IN THE ENGINES! The longer the engines can be re-used, the lower the costs will get.


Edited by Nemo1965, 25 June 2014 - 09:49.


#31 TheMidnight

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:27

WEC is only about one race

 

End of story

 

F1 is about a whole season, more interest in the drivers, a better circulation of races and better tracks, and a far, far bigger audience.

 

I am getting a bit tired of Le Mans fans thinking the cars that run in their championship are the be all and end all. They sound awful, look hideous and are basically engineering adverts, there is no soul in them.

 

Yes, it's great to have a sports car series in good health, but it is ONLY marketing that is doing this. Where were they ten years ago when all you had was Courage and no hybrid/diesel technology to try and sell to rich exectutives in overproced saloons? All Porsche/Audi/Toyota are trying to do is out tech each other and sell that tech workldwide as THEIR solution. t is great from a technology pooint of view, and great it will be filtered down, but it doesnt make the series any better. F1 has made a monumental change this year, and I believe made far great gains in tech than anythign spors cars have done.

 

It is great tech is being pushed through the series yes, but as a spectacle WEC falls way behind F1, it is too long for the vast majority of fans, the drivers dont really matter.

 

It's one thing to dislike a series (and it's very apparent from your numerous posts against sportscars/sportscar fans) that you very much do not like sportscars; there's lot's of opinion in that attack, not a lot of fact though. 

 

How can you say the majority of sportscar fans think the races are too long? What's your sample?

 

I love this little ball of bait:

 

"F1 is about a whole season, more interest in the drivers, a better circulation of races and better tracks, and a far, far bigger audience"

 

A whole season - Tell me, how many drivers are in with a chance of the title this year??? 

 

More interest in drivers - Naturally, as it's a media led sport, personality rules over engineering, it's a little xfactor in that respect. The cars are more the focus in sportscars, how is that a bad thing exactly??

 

Better circulation of races and better tracks - Ignoring the tracks which both F1 and WEC run on together, WEC is missing out on what exactly?? Monaco? A whole raft of tilkedromes in the middle of the desert??? What are these mythical better tracks?? 

 

Audience is larger - No arguments with that, do we take viewer numbers as an indicator of quality? By that premise F1 would be much lesser to football, I'm sure you'd be unhappy being told F1 is rubbish and football is better. 

 

Justify this statement: "F1 has made a monumental change this year, and I believe made far great gains in tech than anythign spors cars have done".....I believe a certain manufacturer called Audi would disagree with comments such as that. Explain how F1 makes greater tech gains..... 

 

There is room for both F1 and sportscars to co-exist quite happily, I get the impression that you'd rather see sportscars screwed into the ground going by some of the comments you make. People can be fans of both series, try it yourself sometime, the irrational disliking gets boring to constantly read. 


Edited by Elissa, 25 June 2014 - 09:48.


#32 Shiroo

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:33

yeah, but i was just more wondering why WEC can have all these awesome things and technical engineering freedom but still only cost a fraction of F1. even though F1 is basically turning into a spec series now with no testing

 

Because they can do something way cheaper because they simply can look into cheaper solution. 

While F1 with all its regulations REQUIRES you to invest milions to get 0.2sec.

The same cash in WEC actually means 1sec.



#33 angrysasha

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:34

Has anyone mentioned the obvious answer yet?

 

 

The problem with formula 1 is the commercial rights holder and his CVC sucking a huge part of the sports revenue out of the sport! this is the biggest problem. 

 

 

take them out of the equation and the sport would have no problem paying for itself and would need no budget caps. Give the teams a fair share and eliminate the blood sucking leach that is Bernie.

 

 

Imagine how much more exposure the sponsors would have had if the sport was available across all media platforms.... It really surprises me how little is said in those cost discussions about the fact that Bernie sucks most of the sports revenues out of the sport and into his and CVCs pockets. 

 

I so wish the breakaway series of a few years ago actually went ahead. we could have had better cars, better tracks, better media access and only have had to change the name from F1 to something like GP1

 

Great topic and a great opening post.



#34 Murl

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:54

Bring in a budget cap.  Budget cap is limited to car development.  Bring in a separate cap for capital spending (facility development) and put no cap at all on entertainment, advertising etc.

 

Other quirks would have to be brought in.  New teams would get a 2 year budget cap exemption in order to catch up.  Teams who score under 10 points one year would be allowed a small addition to the budget cap in the following year in order to help them catch up slightly.

 

A budget cap would allow in season development and would also mean we could get rid of long life engines and gearboxes.  F1 cars should be ragged, on the edge and ready to blow up at any time.  We haven't seen this in F1 for over 10 years at this stage.  One of the joys of F1 used to be wondering which engine was next to go bang.

You nailed it. F1 is about who can run ragged over 2 hours. Lemans the same over 24. It creates tension, wondering eho can make it, maybe the hare is pushing to far. But all that tension is gone now with 20 finishers.



#35 Knot

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:59

Eh, cars don't have to be hand grenades to be exciting. I druther have reliability than shrapnel.

 

The current Formula of seeing who can go the quickest the slowest goes against the excitement of what F1 was...a sprint series. FIA already have an endurance series, why do they need two?



#36 TheMidnight

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:00

In response to the OP….

 

I don’t think WEC is ‘killing’ F1, that’s far too an inflammatory thing to say, and believe imo.

 

WEC is starting to gain some momentum, that’s how it looks to me. When I got to WEC races I’m still surrounded by empty grandstands, and virtually no interest outside of my group of friends.

 

IMO where WEC is gaining strength (not necessarily to the detriment of F1) is the increasing manufacturer involvement. We have Nissan joining in 2015, there’s a Honda/McLaren LMP1 programme that’s far into development (maybe a final destination for Button??!), and Ferrari with an LMP1 project currently in assessment.

 

Tire tech and engine tech is on par with F1, if not more advanced in some areas

 

The laptimes are still slower (on average 8% per lap to a 2013 F1 car), although that gap is decreasing, I don’t think it’ll ever be the same.

 

We’re at the beginning stage of what could be a golden era for sportscars, I don’t think it’ll ever be as popular as F1 though. The each fit different criteria, when you have people like Force India closing off their F1 team and moving over to WEC then I think you could start to question is WEC killing F1. 


Edited by Elissa, 25 June 2014 - 10:02.


#37 TreeEggs

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:01

I don't think that one can say WEC is killing F1 - as some mentioned before, F1 gets a by far bigger attention from the public, even though interest seems to be declining. 

 

What is still very interesting is to compare the approach to technical regulations and costs. Both F1 and WEC have had some significant regulation changes for 2014 aiming somewhat in the same direction: efficiency and strong incorporation of hybrid technologies. My feeling is that the WEC got it somehow right, with three very different PU concepts still giving rather similar performance. Are development costs for Audi, Toyota, and Porsche that much less than for F1 teams? But aside from PU development, car development for WEC cannot be cheap either, Audi employed exhaust blown diffusors last year, this year there has been some rear wing trickery by Toyota - it's all very intricate aero design plus lots of testing. Where does the money really go in F1? To CVC? To useless developments how to make pit stops 0.1s faster? I'm really curious...



#38 ClubmanGT

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:04

I so wish the breakaway series of a few years ago actually went ahead. we could have had better cars, better tracks, better media access and only have had to change the name from F1 to something like GP1

 

Bernie owns the trademark GP1 so that ain't happening.

 

But here's another reason the WEC won't go anywhere: No one, outside of Europe and during the Le Mans 24 hours gives a ****.

 

Most of us can sustain interest in F1 even when it's tedious because we also have a DTM or V8SC or BTCC that we watch too. If I want to see an Endurance race, then there's the Bathurst 1000. It's a lot more relevant and accessible than WEC cars will ever be. A field of GT3 cars do nothing for me because we have GTs at a national racing level in our own countries.

 

Finally, what are my options for watching Le Mans live...go through the hassle of hooking my PC up to my TV and then using a whole bunch of data to get a less-than-HD picture? What are my options for Bathurst? A crystal clear picture with a well-honed telecast.

 

Some people here love the WEC but can't get over how much they hate F1. If they were anywhere near as cynical about WEC as they were about F1 then they'd realise it's far from perfect. 



#39 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:19

WEC also has an absurd calendar at the moment. After Le Mans, nothing until a single race in September, then one in October, and then 3 in November.

 

Not a great way to generate interest if your other races are as far from your headline event as possible. They don't need a 20 race calendar, but something which can sustain interest over a season is vital.



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#40 TheMidnight

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:19

Bernie owns the trademark GP1 so that ain't happening.

 

But here's another reason the WEC won't go anywhere: No one, outside of Europe and during the Le Mans 24 hours gives a ****.

 

Most of us can sustain interest in F1 even when it's tedious because we also have a DTM or V8SC or BTCC that we watch too. If I want to see an Endurance race, then there's the Bathurst 1000. It's a lot more relevant and accessible than WEC cars will ever be. A field of GT3 cars do nothing for me because we have GTs at a national racing level in our own countries.

 

Finally, what are my options for watching Le Mans live...go through the hassle of hooking my PC up to my TV and then using a whole bunch of data to get a less-than-HD picture? What are my options for Bathurst? A crystal clear picture with a well-honed telecast.

 

Some people here love the WEC but can't get over how much they hate F1. If they were anywhere near as cynical about WEC as they were about F1 then they'd realise it's far from perfect. 

 

 

Le Mans live this year you had a multitude of options, the main one being Eurosport, or taking one of the numerous live feeds (including a choice of 12 different onboards). For Bathurst 1000, I believe it was on Motors TV, which is a sub HD picture....you could of got the rest via streaming, how is that different to the coverage of WEC/Le Mans???...and indeed better?

 

I'm not trying to say WEC is better or anything like that, but confuses me how people can have such differing standards dependant on the series. 


Edited by Elissa, 25 June 2014 - 10:21.


#41 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:22

It seems to me that if they laxed the rules *just* a little bit, that would give the smaller teams more latitude to be competitive because they might be able to exploit something the larger teams haven't. Instead what we have now is ferrari throwing 500 million euros at increasing the performance of a bolt nut because the rules have effectively curtailed development everywhere else.

 

The rules are designed by the teams.  The large teams like strict rules that protect the status quo, limited aerodynamic freedom etc.  Rules that require large redesigns are routinely rejected or delayed leading to haphazard compromises (e.g., wider track abandoned, underbody aero changes abandoned, larger wheel change not considered, lowered bulkhead done haphazardly, vanity panel etc).  < It's a big problem with F1.  :well:



#42 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:23

For Bathurst 1000, I believe it was on Motors TV, which is a sub HD picture....

V8 Supercars is never broadcast or filmed in full HD anyway, so just not possible to have HD coverage! :)



#43 TheMidnight

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:34

V8 Supercars is never broadcast or filmed in full HD anyway, so just not possible to have HD coverage! :)

 

Well there we go!! 

 

I remember the feed I took for the Bathurst 12 hours was really sharp and seemed to be at least 720p, are the two events filmed differently??? I don't tend to bother much with Bathurst 1000 as that's more Australian V8's than sportscar racing iirc. 


Edited by Elissa, 25 June 2014 - 10:36.


#44 BullHead

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:38

F1 is killing itself, WEC perhaps is making gains out of that, which to me is only natural.
Prototypes are as technologically advanced and interesting as F1 if not more so, even arguably more road relevant to go with it. The endurance team strategies are (IMO) more engrossing and easier to follow / understand. The racing itself whilst not always action packed (and is F1?), certainly strikes me as being purer.
As said above WEC would benefit from better promotion, but they could do it on the value of the sport itself, which is still a sport, and not full of gimmicks.
Maybe then, young drivers would aspire to that instead of F1, and only then, when all drivers dream of WEC, it will be de facto the new pinnacle of motorsport.
F1 is very very close to the edge... In that it will be leaving the "pinnacle" accolade vacant if it is not careful.

#45 noikeee

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:46

It's not killing Formula 1 - the WEC has zero chance of overtaking Formula 1 as the most popular form of motorsport in the next 10 years and probably forever. Even if they snap up all of the manufacturers. The mainstream casual audience simply don't have the attention span to follow an endurance race.



#46 Risil

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:52

Only a couple of hours longer than a NASCAR race. Tell me they can't capture a mainstream casual audience.


Edited by Risil, 25 June 2014 - 11:53.


#47 GSiebert

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:57

WEC is going completely in the opposite direction and prospering better than ever

That is very debatable. The top class in endurance racing is today reduced to 3 manufacturers and 1 privateer who has absolutly no chance of winning, exactly because of the cars being too complex and expensive today. If 2 manufacturers decide to take back their toys and go home, the category is dead. And that is what manufacturers do when they don't win at Le Mans.

 

In the Group C days you had a Le Mans field FULL of prototypes, a dozen of manufacturers and nearly 40 cars in the top class.


Edited by GSiebert, 25 June 2014 - 12:04.


#48 sheepgobba

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 12:16

WEC isn't killing Formula 1. Formula 1 is killing itself, the gun is against its own head. The bullets are the teams, CVC and the rules, a combination of these has led to the current decline.  

 

The irony is that F1 has marketed this new era of rules as being more 'oriented' towards the future and how one day the current technology will fettle down to road cars. While Le Mans is already ahead in that respect, but you don't necessarily get the same marketing that F1 does. It's almost like F1 has to reassure its fan base and pull manufacturers (which funnily enough it struggles to do so atm) while Le Mans has 4 manufacturers next year, and a number of others interested in it. 

 

I think however, F1 is a prestige sport. You have to spend enormous amounts of $$$ to see results while Le Mans offers a cheaper alternative right now with its similar rules to F1 (ERS, Hybrid) without the marketing return that F1 can offer. The final question comes down to whether the 24 Le Mans is more prestige and precious than the F1 World Championship? 


Edited by sheepgobba, 25 June 2014 - 12:20.


#49 chunder27

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 12:21

NASCAR is not at all popular in the UK or the rest of Europe really, it has been on big tv channels and in the UK now is relegated to Premier sports which is not at all a big tv station, after being on quite a few stations in the past.

 AS people didnt want to watch it at all.

 

It's a bit like WRC, gone through a few homes and found it's home in a basic, cheapish PPV setting.

 

NASCAR is never going to be popular over here as it is about as American as sport gets, they watch the start, go to the camper, eat a horse, buy a t shirt and a diecast, eat another horse, drink a keg of Cola, go to the doctors to get insulin and come back for the last half hour.

 

WEC might have some things going for it at the moment, but that is only periodic and because of the marketing strategies of 3 (well actually 2 as Porsche and VW are together really) car companies.  Most fans in the street couldn't care less and neother could a percentage of the motorsport community who view it is a one race series.  Which is fair enough, but a week after Le Mans to suggest it is nicking fans is incredulous!  F1 is still bale to capture the imagination int he UK occasionally, but WEC, no chance I'm afraid. It's just too long, too lacking in drivers and not exciting enough as a fan, as a driver yes, but anything you need a radio to listen to while watching is never going to appeal to most race fans



#50 Risil

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 12:31

NASCAR is never going to be popular over here as it is about as American as sport gets, they watch the start, go to the camper, eat a horse, buy a t shirt and a diecast, eat another horse, drink a keg of Cola, go to the doctors to get insulin and come back for the last half hour.

 

This is exactly what motor racing has to be in order to appeal to the non-nerds.