133 replies to this topic

[mclarensmps]

I see the argument of road relevance thrown around a lot in discussions such as this one. What I find amusing about this argument is that there is probably an incredibly small percentage of Motor Racing enthusiasts who actually care about the road relevance of the technology that goes into F1/LMP cars. This is more of a marketing gimmick that is used by manufacturers and it seems to have worked. 

 

The automobile and motor racing have matured way past the point where you will have engineering and design breakthroughs that will have a noticeable impact on road vehicles. Don't get me wrong, it will still happen once in a blue moon, but it is no longer a valid justification.

 

F1 and WEC had stopped "pushing the boundaries" of engineering quite some time ago. Now it's just become a calculative and iterative engineering exercise. The real innovation happens outside of these motorsports.

I guess this is a bit of an off topic rant, and kind of irrelevant to the discussion

[August]

I see the argument of road relevance thrown around a lot in discussions such as this one. What I find amusing about this argument is that there is probably an incredibly small percentage of Motor Racing enthusiasts who actually care about the road relevance of the technology that goes into F1/LMP cars. This is more of a marketing gimmick that is used by manufacturers and it seems to have worked.

 

As a racing fan, I don't care about the road relevance. But car manufacturers care. If you can get more relevant experience from some series than another, it makes sense to go to the more relevant series, unless the other works much better for marketing.

 

And the relevance is different for e.g. Renault and Ferrari, they make completely different cars.

[Nobody]

F1 is run by people who don't give two ****s about anything apart from lining their pockets with money.

 

Now they've done this for so long, and ripped off so many people that they are now running out of people/countries they haven't burnt (including fans).

[Dolph]

.

 

I can't agree with any of this.

 

 

It's only been a recent trend, but a very noticeable one. Formula 1 viewership and interest is down

 

 

The interest in WEC is miniscule compared to F1. Especially if you exclude Le Mans.

 

 

 

longstanding teams threatening to pull out at any moment's notice.

 

Like who? Ferrari? They've been threatening to pull out for longer than I remember.

 

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile, WEC has attracted audi, porsche, ferrari, ford, mazda, mclaren and even honda in recent rumors.

 

Audi has been apart of WEC/Le Mans for 16 years. They haven't been attracted.

 

McLaren has been only attracted (if you are to be believed)  because they produce a GT car. Its natural that they go GT racing. They can't enter into F1 a second time with a GT car, can they?  Ant we are talking GT, not prototypes.

 

The rest is bollocks until they appeare on the grid.

 

Why haven't you listed Nissan or Toyota?

 

Peugeot dropped out. But lets just forget about that because its convenient.

 

Actually the WEC LMP1 grid is just 9 cars. And LMP2 grid is 3 cars

[Dolph]

 Interest level has trending upwards,

 

By what?  A 100000 viewers? What are you basing this on? Did you start watching WEC?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 and the race experience

 

The race experiene is 4-5 LMP1 cars going around for 6 hours. The rest are retired or 25 laps behind.

 

Oh wait, lets not forget the 3 LMP2 cars.

 

There are the GT cars, of course...

 

 

 

the aesthetics of the cars and even the sound is better than F1 at the moment. 

 

 

The aesthetics are debatable as to which are more ugly.

 

 

 

F1 keeps making calls to cut costs, cut costs, cut costs at the expense of track testing and restrictive engineering regulations. Yet, as far as I can tell, WEC teams don't have any such restrictions. Teams in WEC have way more testing time and days than F1.

 

What's the significance of that for you as a fan? WEC cars still break down all the time, whilst the F1 cars were bulletproof until this year. But things are bound to stabilise in F1 after the rules have been effect a couple of years.

[Dolph]

They are also not restricted to V6 hybrid turbos (eg toyota runs a 3.7 NA V8, Audi runs a V6 turbodiesel, porsche runs a inline 4 cylinder etc).

 

And so what? The LMP1 cars are all balanced out. Doesn't matter what they actually run in the car. It actually makes more sense to run a dumbed down version so you have less parts that can fail on the car.

 

 

WEC racers even seem to have more lax regulations regarding aerodynamic components of the cars. 

 

LMP1 cars all look the same, in case you haven't noticed. Change them over all to one livery and you couldn't make out a Toyota from a Porsche LMP1.

 

 

 

And despite all of this, somehow, why is it still cheaper to run WEC than it is to run formula 1? can someone explain this to me?

 

Less races, less competition, less sponsorship money, less public interest. If there is more public interestest, then there is more sponsorship available and higher budgets.

 

 

I thought restricting design freedoms and freezing development was helping save formula 1 money, but WEC is going completely in the opposite direction and prospering better than ever. Their cars are new, road relevant and exciting while f1 has been making their cars uniformly slower and uglier.

 

Did you forget about the new engines F1 introduced in 2014?

And dear I ask what technology do WEC LMP cars have that F1 cars do not?

 

 

 

I can't believe this opening post forms a thread that goes on for pages. Why don't I just make up a page or two of stuff that's completely untrue and see what happens.

[Dolph]

Of course the WEC does not need budgetcaps. If the WEC teams spend as much money a year as F1 teams, then it becomes interesting.

 

No, then the guys  in the board room go: "Gee, for this kind of money we could do F1 and get 100 times more visibility". Screw WEC and lets join F1.

[Dolph]

The field's packed for the duration of a whole NASCAR race though - it's got a slightly different culture to endurance racing.

 

True, in NASCAR any of 20 or so guys could win in the last lap. In WEC any of the three cars who are not more than 2 laps down could potentially threaten the leading car if there is an hour to go.

Edited by Dolph, 26 June 2014 - 01:13.

[Dolph]

This, motor racing, and cars in general are just not as "wow" anymore. And ever since they had to slow the cars down for safety it lost it's purity.

 

So what are we talking here? The 50s? When did the engine capacity become limited in F1... around that time? so its been hard 60 years for you then.

[Dolph]

Oddly enough though there are more paid drivers in LMP1 alone than there is in F1, I'm sure that'll mean something to someone somewhere 

 

That's a nice fact. Doesn anyone know their salaries? Does their combined earnings equal to Alonso's or Rosberg's salary?

[Dolph]

As a racing fan, I don't care about the road relevance. But car manufacturers care. If you can get more relevant experience from some series than another, it makes sense to go to the more relevant series, unless the other works much better for marketing.

 

And the relevance is different for e.g. Renault and Ferrari, they make completely different cars.

 

Exactly. Renault really developed the turbo engines in the 70s and 80s. How many turbo models does Renault produce now? I don't know, but its probably between -1 and 3

[ch103]

I think this thread is proof that racing enthusiasts are beginning to sour on the same old, constant nonsense in F1.  Ecclestone, illegal parts, lack of cooperation between teams, threats to quit by Ferrari and crying from Red Bull have just become too much to bear.

[Paco]

1st I don't think WEC is killing F1.    There may be F1 fans more in tune because F1 is no longer about awe inspiring performance with good but not excellent realibility directly as a result of from the constant pushing the envelope.. things break.  Now that f1 is about endurance.. it's confused about it's true purpose. 

WEC appeals more to the everyday joe.. and more applicable to road cars..  so since F1 lost its edge.. WEC fills that void a bit.  If WEC was able to exploit that even more.. by making it a bit more extreme.. then it could put a large dent into F1 .. 

 

WEC remains true to it's roots - endurance racing, doesn't stop innovations on the spot and come up with ridiculous penalities at every turn of a race ..

F1 lost it's magic appealing to poor manufacturers and not allowing short life components, focusing on endurance components looking after tires and fuel... what crap.

[john_smith]

Less races, less competition, less sponsorship money, less public interest. If there is more public interestest, then there is more sponsorship available and higher budgets.

 

...

 

Did you forget about the new engines F1 introduced in 2014?

And dear I ask what technology do WEC LMP cars have that F1 cars do not?

 

 

 

I agree with the first part of your post - WEC budgets are smaller because there's money flowing in that business, and there's less money because of smaller audiences and as some has mentioned, little mainsteam TV exposure.

 

But to your second point - Toyota uses capacitors for their hybrid technology, audi uses a flywheel system, and porsche used batteries. In F1, teams are required to use batteries.

 

WIlliams developed a flywheel system but that was never raced, instead, it was sold to be used on trains and trucks.

[Jimisgod]

WEC cars look like abominations compared to the pre-00s group C ones.

F1 cars aren't pretty but they aren't as horrible and slow looking as the WEC.

[August]

What's the significance of that for you as a fan? WEC cars still break down all the time, whilst the F1 cars were bulletproof until this year. But things are bound to stabilise in F1 after the rules have been effect a couple of years.

 

Too reliable cars were something badly gone wrong in F1. A car should be on its limits in a race, it should hardly last to the finish line.

[Lazy]

Exactly. Renault really developed the turbo engines in the 70s and 80s. How many turbo models does Renault produce now? I don't know, but its probably between -1 and 3

http://media.renault...x?mediaid=55061

http://www.renault.c...rgy-tce-90.aspx

[Victor_RO]

WEC cars look like abominations compared to the pre-00s group C ones.

F1 cars aren't pretty but they aren't as horrible and slow looking as the WEC.

 

Somewhat true on the first assertion, but after seeing them trackside at Le Mans, I'm going to have to disagree strongly with you on the second one. The Audi and Toyota in particular looked scary quick through some of the sections of the track, and the Toyota under acceleration from slow corners... 

[Ross Stonefeld]

They look really nice from the front, awful from the side. I understand why the fin is there but surely there's a way to make it look like a more natural part of the design.

[JHSingo]

I like WEC, but I wouldn't say it is 'killing F1' right now. Both series have their own problems.

 

F1's are well documented already. But I think the problem the WEC faces is that it'll never become massively popular, because very few people have the interest or attention span to sit through a six hour race. Maybe if it became a World Sportscar Championship instead, and had numerous races distances (like ALMS had) where some races were as short as two and a half hours, and as long as twelve, it may start to build a bigger following.

 

But sportscar racing will always be a very niche area within an already niche sport, and I don't think they've really done themselves any favours this year in charging people to watch races online, when last year it was free. In its current format, the WEC is a bit like IndyCar, in that it has a bit marquee event (24 hours of Le Mans/Indianapolis 500) and relatively little interest for anything else.

 

The other thing I find a shame with regard to the WEC is that the calendar is a bit...weak. It is disappointing that they race at COTA for their American round instead of Sebring or Road Atlanta.

[Option1]

Agree with most of what you say JH S, but would add that one of the biggest problems with WEC is the HUGE gaps in their calendar.  Having something like 2 or 3 months from Le Mans to the next event is not a good way to keep fan interest bubbling, to say the least.

 

Neil

[Ali_G]

They look really nice from the front, awful from the side. I understand why the fin is there but surely there's a way to make it look like a more natural part of the design.

 

I just think that there's surely a way to make the cars more stable without the need of those fins.  They are ugly in the extreme. 

[JHSingo]

I just think that there's surely a way to make the cars more stable without the need of those fins.  They are ugly in the extreme. 

 

They don't appear to work, either. Had several incidents with LMP1s still taking off, most notably Davidson in 2012, and seemingly Duval this year.

[LuckyStrike1]

My opinion of the matter is currently under investigation by the stewards. 

[SenorSjon]

Well, F1 just adds more rules to hand victory to WEC.

[jee]

They don't appear to work, either. Had several incidents with LMP1s still taking off, most notably Davidson in 2012, and seemingly Duval this year.

They should add flaps like NASCAR has, invisible while driving normally very effective (unless another car is pushing another car all the way into a flip)

[FerrariV12]

I don't think WEC is "killing" F1 as such and to be honest I hope it doesn't. F1 is doing a mighty fine job of committing suicide with its standing cost frozen cutting standard sparking starts or whatever the latest rule is, while I hope WEC remains as it is - 4 manufacturers 1 manufacturer or no manufacturers - as something a fan can actually enjoy without any pretension of being popular with the "casual fan" or "man in the street" (merely owning testicles and renting a terraced house flat doesn't necessarily qualify you for the latter, apparently) and is left alone.

Edited by FerrariV12, 26 June 2014 - 21:12.

[Ali_G]

Maybe its because WEC isn't killing itself.

 

After reading the 2015 Sporting Regs, I can confirm that F1 is now self cannibalising itself.

[ClubmanGT]

Le Mans live this year you had a multitude of options, the main one being Eurosport, or taking one of the numerous live feeds (including a choice of 12 different onboards). For Bathurst 1000, I believe it was on Motors TV, which is a sub HD picture....you could of got the rest via streaming, how is that different to the coverage of WEC/Le Mans???...and indeed better?

 

I'm not trying to say WEC is better or anything like that, but confuses me how people can have such differing standards dependant on the series. 

 

This just in: people live all over the world and don't have access to the same TV stations you do. Eurosport is not offered where I live. I get F1 in crystal clear BBC glory but the WEC is something that just doesn't register on anyone's radar here. 

[OvDrone]

I ****ing love Le Mans. Like, one proper endurance racing nerd. But killing? Killing? Don't make me laugh.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I would love my friends to go all like: 'ah, motoracing you say? Le Mans.' instead of 'motoracing you say? some double bullshit in abu dhabi.'.

[phoenix101]

I see the argument of road relevance thrown around a lot in discussions such as this one. What I find amusing about this argument is that there is probably an incredibly small percentage of Motor Racing enthusiasts who actually care about the road relevance of the technology that goes into F1/LMP cars. This is more of a marketing gimmick that is used by manufacturers and it seems to have worked. 

 

Production relevance can be meaningful to fans and manufacturers. If the LMP1 regulations stipulated use of production engines, with minimal modifications, road relevance would mean something. Engines would be easy to obtain for private teams, as well.

[Dolph]

My opinion of the matter is currently under investigation by the stewards. 

 

 

If your bringing the sport into disrepute then you'll be fined and disqualified from watching the next 2 races.

[lambylamby]

Add to this mix it has to be pointed out that you get amazing teams like Jota Motorsport winning their category, a really great bunch of guys makes the sport (in depth) a great sport.

[Option1]

If your bringing the sport into disrepute then you'll be fined and disqualified from watching the next 2 races.

Geez, that's a tad harsh.  With the way the WEC calendar is that is longer than the Suarez cannibalism penalty.

 

Neil