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Sebastian Vettel vs Daniel Ricciardo 2014 part II


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#1751 renton

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 16:31

Apart from multi21, that overtake on webber is top 15 in recent years. 

btw, i do think, racecraft has little to do with this current situation on the other hand alonso coming 2nd or rosberg coming 4th has. hamilton's defending on rosberg was both in bahrein and in hungary at least controversial. kimi and hamilton are deemed as great racers, yet those two have made several mistakes recently, not to mention that they are lucky to be called WDCs.



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#1752 joshb

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 16:49

Go to YouTube and browse around "Vettel radio"... There are a lot of examples. A. LOT. In comparison, Dan hasn't sounded flustered on the radio yet. Interesting difference between the 2 so far.

So an adrenaline fuelled radio conversation is a driver being mentally weak?

Gosh!



#1753 bourbon

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 16:50

Apart from multi21, that overtake on webber is top 15 in recent years. 

btw, i do think, racecraft has little to do with this current situation on the other hand alonso coming 2nd or rosberg coming 4th has. hamilton's defending on rosberg was both in bahrein and in hungary at least controversial. kimi and hamilton are deemed as great racers, yet those two have made several mistakes recently, not to mention that they are lucky to be called WDCs.

 

I agree the term 'racecraft' is thrown around loosely and randomly to the point where it has no meaning at all between posters.  It would be better to state what you are talking about exactly rather than depend upon a general term as it lends to confusion and strawman arguments.  Wheel to wheel is one aspect where "racecraft" consists of many elements - defending, attacking, reasoning, judging, gauging limits and much more, while managing the particular car (pursuant to what the RE is advising).  So when one says "racer X has good racecraft because that pass on racer Y was zawesome" it is pretty much saying nothing at all. 

 

Experience is key because over time a top driver is going to experience all of these intertwining elements and develop a history among his rivals.  In the case at hand it is 5 seasons : 10 races, Seb : Daniel, so comparisons are inane at this point, imo.  But admiration or criticism is valid based on their particular level of experience and what they've dealt with thus far.  For me it is academic as both are fine in that regard and so conversations make more sense when event driven as opposed to generalization.



#1754 aditya-now

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 18:57

 

...Alonso on Vettel

 

Very prophetic words at 3:59: "there are interesting times for Sebastian coming...."

 

Apart from that, the whining of Seb on the radio is something that had him lose the sympathies of many people - fans and experts alike. 
Cheers for Ricciardo, he perfectly fits the Red Bull team and I don't see Seb staying longer with RBR than till the end of 2015.

 

 

Concerning the scoreboard: I am just a visitor from other threads, but it is a pity that here is no one who puts up Daniel - Seb scoreboards like kosmos does in the Fernando - Kimi thread.



#1755 aditya-now

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 19:06

Can't believe I'm having to remove LH vs NR related discussion.  They have their own bloody thread people, it's ridiculous that it even needs to be said.

 

Let's keep the topic to SV vs DR 2014 please.

 

It's quite interesting, that there are LH vs NR discussions, Senna vs Prost comparisons and the constant mention of Alonso - Hamilton - Schumacher creeping into this thread. What does it tell us?

 

Apart from the near universal cheer for Ricciardo, there is a lot of posters coming up now with Seb's four titles. That was to be expected.

What I like about the Vettel fans: there is no disdain for Ricciardo, no negativity, as it easily happens in other "vs" threads. Congrats on the positivity in this thread!



#1756 Goron3

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 19:15

Very prophetic words at 3:59: "there are interesting times for Sebastian coming...."

 

Apart from that, the whining of Seb on the radio is something that had him lose the sympathies of many people - fans and experts alike. 
Cheers for Ricciardo, he perfectly fits the Red Bull team and I don't see Seb staying longer with RBR than till the end of 2015.

 

 

Concerning the scoreboard: I am just a visitor from other threads, but it is a pity that here is no one who puts up Daniel - Seb scoreboards like kosmos does in the Fernando - Kimi thread.

I love that interview. I love how so many people (Seb fans mainly) dismissed it when not only is it true for Seb, it's true for any sport star who is successful at a young age. Schumacher, Alonso and other proved their worth throughout their career and to be honest, I'm sure Seb will eventually prove that his 4 titles weren't down to being in, ultimately, the best car. In fact, with how high Ricciardo's stock is atm, matching Daniel would be an achievement in itself.



#1757 grichka

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 19:15

Alonso has been bashing Vettel since 2009, he is probably the biggest Vettel hater in the paddock. Vettel is definitely some kind of mental problem/complex for Alonso.



#1758 Goron3

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 19:29

Alonso has been bashing Vettel since 2009, he is probably the biggest Vettel hater in the paddock. Vettel is definitely some kind of mental problem/complex for Alonso.

I say this as someone who has been in the paddock a fair bit: Alonso definitely isn't the biggest Vettel hater. He see's him as a rival but he cares much more for Lewis and Daniel, who he seems to love.

 

That said, there's a certain German who's not a fan of Seb ;)



#1759 grichka

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 19:36

I say this as someone who has been in the paddock a fair bit: Alonso definitely isn't the biggest Vettel hater. He see's him as a rival but he cares much more for Lewis and Daniel, who he seems to love.

 

That said, there's a certain German who's not a fan of Seb ;)

Which german? ;) I think Hulk is not a fan of Vettel, but Alonso is another different level :)



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#1760 bourbon

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 20:18

I say this as someone who has been in the paddock a fair bit: Alonso definitely isn't the biggest Vettel hater. He see's him as a rival

[...]

 

 

Very prophetic words at 3:59: "there are interesting times for Sebastian coming...."

 

 [...]

 

Alonso considers Seb his biggest rival in terms of achivement - obviously.  Jealousy has motivated many negative comments from Alonso about Vettel since cup #3.   His opinions are historically kinder toward those who are not, at the time, his biggest rival, imo.

 

In the pre-race show, Brundle called Alonso out for his choice of words praising Daniel - recognizing them for what they were, an attempt to twist a knife in Vettel's back once again.  However, I think he is just speaking out of frustration and I don't think either Seb or Dan, or their on track performance will be impacted by Alonso's statements.



#1761 PlatenGlass

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 20:23

So an adrenaline fuelled radio conversation is a driver being mentally weak?
Gosh!

It doesn't matter what's said on the radio. People can call it mentally weak all they like, but it only matters when it translates into driving errors. While Ricciardo may not have been caught whining like Vettel, we've all heard Hamilton and Alonso whining plenty of times. And Alonso in particular doesn't get called mentally weak.

#1762 ebc

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 21:04

Dan is hugely impressive and very likable as well, I just can't help but be happy for the guy even though I am a big fan of Seb.  But I do think Vettel will come back at him, the people writing Seb off are jumping the gun as he is only 26 and has years before he reaches his prime, he just seems to be struggling with these cars but he will get on top of it eventually.  I reckon both of these guys win multiple titles from here on.  

 

Alonso doesn't like Vettel that is clear and it must hurt to see Seb have more titles, wins and poles.  Fernando's rep is higher now but Seb has 10 years at the top to get him there as well.  If Vettel loses to Dan this year but comes back and wins the title next year then his rep will be higher than it was at the start of this year, one bad season does not define a driver but how he deals with it will.  He is certainly handling much better than Alonso did in 2007.



#1763 Thomas99

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 23:45

Dan is hugely impressive and very likable as well, I just can't help but be happy for the guy even though I am a big fan of Seb.  But I do think Vettel will come back at him, the people writing Seb off are jumping the gun as he is only 26 and has years before he reaches his prime, he just seems to be struggling with these cars but he will get on top of it eventually.  I reckon both of these guys win multiple titles from here on.  

 

Alonso doesn't like Vettel that is clear and it must hurt to see Seb have more titles, wins and poles.  Fernando's rep is higher now but Seb has 10 years at the top to get him there as well.  If Vettel loses to Dan this year but comes back and wins the title next year then his rep will be higher than it was at the start of this year, one bad season does not define a driver but how he deals with it will.  He is certainly handling much better than Alonso did in 2007.

 

May I ask what objectively have you seen during their time as team mates and their relative performances that would lead you to believe Seb is the stronger driver?


Edited by Thomas99, 30 July 2014 - 23:46.


#1764 krapmeister

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 00:27

Scorecard Update time!  :wave:
 
20140727Hungary_zps3997e343.jpg


I r confused.

Surely if we can discount Bahrain due to Vettel having a small mechanical issue (iirc) that may have compromised his race pace a bit, then we have to discount Germany due to Dan's misfortune at being caught up in the Massa-Magnussen T1 incident that dropped him down to 15th through no fault of his own?

#1765 lbennie

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 00:55

Wait, Bahrain doesn't count?

 

come on now.



#1766 Thomas99

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 01:03

Wait, Bahrain doesn't count?

 

come on now.

This is why I can't take the list seriously. Ricciardo smashed Vettel in qualifying and race and doesn't get it because Vettel had a malfunctioning DRS or something.



#1767 FBJim

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 03:18

But then we've seen it plenty of times in his career so far - if Vettel isn't leading lights-to-flag, he is error-prone and mentally a bit fragile.

My main memory of the last three races of 2012 was that Vettel, under immense pressure, crashed twice in the last three races, and only sheer luck with safety cars and car damage (or lack thereof) gave him the title after that "performance". 



#1768 Brother Fox

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 03:30

Don't forget :

Vettel has sub optimal kers in Monaco Q - can't count Dan being ahead
Ricciardo loses his monkey seat off the rear wing in Hungary - must count Vettel being ahead

#1769 bourbon

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 03:32

My main memory of the last three races of 2012 was that Vettel, under immense pressure, crashed twice in the last three races, and only sheer luck with safety cars and car damage (or lack thereof) gave him the title after that "performance". 

 

Your main memory needs a reboot - failsafe to your backup  :p

 

Seb came from the pitlane to 3rd in Abu Dhabi, one of his most stellar performances.  He then ran an excellent race in Austin's first and finest GP where he came second.  There were no incidents in either race.  You apparently remember the final race where he took the championship in a car that should have retired at 1L.  It was a beautiful thing - so I think you must be thinking of some other driver.



#1770 krapmeister

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 03:42

No he is right - he did crash twice in those last 3 races. In Abu Dhabi, Vettel narrowly avoided running into the back of Ricciardo under the safety car and instead damaged his front wing crashing into a braking marker in avoidance. And in Brazil, he crashed into Bruno Senna on the first lap. But why am I not surprised you don't remember...

#1771 bourbon

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 04:03

No he is right - he did crash twice in those last 3 races. In Abu Dhabi, Vettel narrowly avoided running into the back of Ricciardo under the safety car and instead damaged his front wing crashing into a braking marker in avoidance. And in Brazil, he crashed into Bruno Senna on the first lap. But why am I not surprised you don't remember...

 

Oh so now we redefine clipping a wing on a sign as a crash - why am I not surprised.   And Bruno hit Seb from behind, going for a space that was simply not going to be there.

 

Suffice it to say that on the whole, those were 3 fantastic races from Seb - culminating in a season in which against all odds, he managed to attain his third title.  On topic, Dan once said that he wanted to do what Seb has done in the sense of being on the RBR junior team and going on to win championships in the big team.  Those races embodies some of what it takes to do that.  Under immense pressure, completing hard races through the field, getting the best result, whatever the race throws at you, staying conscious, but not fixated on your rivals and never giving up. 



#1772 krapmeister

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 04:06

Oh so now we redefine clipping a wing on a sign as a crash - why am I not surprised.   And Bruno hit Seb from behind, going for a space that was simply not going to be there.


That's some alternate reality you have going on there...

#1773 Thomas99

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 04:08

yEPEd5S.png

 

here is a trend graph of Ricciardo's points advantage over Vettel. You will notice that despite being 15 points behind in Malaysia due to non finishes there is a clear pattern of decreasing that deficit and then increasing the lead.



#1774 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 04:09

Quali:

 

VETvsRIC_zps4c04fb08.jpg

 

 

 

Races:

 

DS_zpsbf3821d3.jpg

RICAS_zps0812bbdf.jpg

VETAS_zps03d2591a.jpg


Edited by CrucialXtreme, 31 July 2014 - 04:42.


#1775 Redback

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 05:48

Oh so now we redefine clipping a wing on a sign as a crash - why am I not surprised. 

 

OK, - so you think hitting random road-side obstacles is perfectly acceptable and doesn't constitute a crash...

 

Wow! - the passengers in your car must have a frightening "interesting" time!  :eek:

 

 

 

 

Oh, - I almost forgot: 131>88


Edited by Redback, 31 July 2014 - 06:00.


#1776 tghik

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 06:04

I agree the term 'racecraft' is thrown around loosely and randomly to the point where it has no meaning at all between posters.  It would be better to state what you are talking about exactly rather than depend upon a general term as it lends to confusion and strawman arguments.  Wheel to wheel is one aspect where "racecraft" consists of many elements - defending, attacking, reasoning, judging, gauging limits and much more, while managing the particular car (pursuant to what the RE is advising).  So when one says "racer X has good racecraft because that pass on racer Y was zawesome" it is pretty much saying nothing at all. 

 

Experience is key because over time a top driver is going to experience all of these intertwining elements and develop a history among his rivals.  In the case at hand it is 5 seasons : 10 races, Seb : Daniel, so comparisons are inane at this point, imo.  But admiration or criticism is valid based on their particular level of experience and what they've dealt with thus far.  For me it is academic as both are fine in that regard and so conversations make more sense when event driven as opposed to generalization.

racecraft or not, I want to ask you, who according to you is the better driver till now ?



#1777 Thomas99

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 06:09

racecraft or not, I want to ask you, who according to you is the better driver till now ?

 

technically Daniel. He has 5 trophies to Vettel's 2.



#1778 bourbon

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 07:21

OK, - so you think hitting random road-side obstacles is perfectly acceptable and doesn't constitute a crash...

 

Perfectly acceptable?  Where did I say that? 

 

The incident at SPA with Grosjean, Hamilton and Alonso  or Senna and Seb in Brazil = Crash.  Seb taking off a small corner of wing when he hit a sign at 10-20 mph, and continued =  clipping a wing.   Two cars knocking into one another = touching.

 

If you describe these incidents using the same term, it may simply be because we are from different parts of the world and use different terminology.   So yeah, I remember this type of thing, but we don't call them crashes.

 

 

Oh, - I almost forgot: 131>88

 

You are finally coming around to seeing it my way!  Welcome to the dark side :up: :D


Edited by bourbon, Yesterday, 00:03.


#1779 The Passenger

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 08:18

I r confused.

Surely if we can discount Bahrain due to Vettel having a small mechanical issue (iirc) that may have compromised his race pace a bit, then we have to discount Germany due to Dan's misfortune at being caught up in the Massa-Magnussen T1 incident that dropped him down to 15th through no fault of his own?

 

I did that because Thomas was OK with my chart after Bahrain and then he said he was happy to give Germany to Vettel.

 

Sorry, it's a bit hard to keep everyone happy.  I'm trying really hard not to be biased towards my man, Dan, but perhaps that leads to being too generous to Seb.
 



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#1780 SennaBoys

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 08:30

Oh so now we redefine clipping a wing on a sign as a crash - why am I not surprised.   And Bruno hit Seb from behind, going for a space that was simply not going to be there.

 

Suffice it to say that on the whole, those were 3 fantastic races from Seb - culminating in a season in which against all odds, he managed to attain his third title.  On topic, Dan once said that he wanted to do what Seb has done in the sense of being on the RBR junior team and going on to win championships in the big team.  Those races embodies some of what it takes to do that.  Under immense pressure, completing hard races through the field, getting the best result, whatever the race throws at you, staying conscious, but not fixated on your rivals and never giving up. 

 

I'm sorry but that simply isn't true:

 

"Vettel’s situation got more serious when they reached Subido do Lago. Kimi Raikkonen took avoiding action to keep from hitting him but as the Red Bull turned into the corner Bruno Senna appeared on the inside. The Williams driver was overtaking two drivers between him and Vettel, who appeared not to see Senna’s car alongside. The pair made contact – twice – leaving Vettel pointing the wrong way down the track."

 

http://www.f1fanatic...nd-prix-report/

 



#1781 Thomas99

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 08:35

I did that because Thomas was OK with my chart after Bahrain and then he said he was happy to give Germany to Vettel.

 

Sorry, it's a bit hard to keep everyone happy.  I'm trying really hard not to be biased towards my man, Dan, but perhaps that leads to being too generous to Seb.
 

Seb gets Germany. I hate excuses, there are very rarely races in Formula 1 that both drivers run in clean air unhindered with 0 mechanical problems.



#1782 Goron3

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 08:51

Oh so now we redefine clipping a wing on a sign as a crash - why am I not surprised.   And Bruno hit Seb from behind, going for a space that was simply not going to be there.

 

Suffice it to say that on the whole, those were 3 fantastic races from Seb - culminating in a season in which against all odds, he managed to attain his third title.  On topic, Dan once said that he wanted to do what Seb has done in the sense of being on the RBR junior team and going on to win championships in the big team.  Those races embodies some of what it takes to do that.  Under immense pressure, completing hard races through the field, getting the best result, whatever the race throws at you, staying conscious, but not fixated on your rivals and never giving up. 

Just to clarify, I think it's pretty obvious too all that Seb came back onto the racing line after running wide and simply did not see Bruno there. It's a racing incident, although jumping back onto the racing line is something you should never do on lap 1, especially in an overtaking zone, because it's likely you'll turn into someone. 



#1783 DavidHeath461

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 10:24

Just to clarify, I think it's pretty obvious too all that Seb came back onto the racing line after running wide and simply did not see Bruno there. It's a racing incident, although jumping back onto the racing line is something you should never do on lap 1, especially in an overtaking zone, because it's likely you'll turn into someone.


Incident was quite similar to Massa vs Magnussen at the start of Germany this year. Most people blamed Massa for that so...

#1784 abc

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:07

Scorecard Update time!  :wave:

 

20140727Hungary_zps3997e343.jpg

 

Or, in picture format:

 

Wow thats reasonable assessment. Bahrain could go fully to DR and Malaysia on both days must go to SV, though.

Another point - races in Canada, Silverstone, Hungary go to DR due to better luck (traffic, SC) rather than through sheer pace, Germany is opposite case.

And no - as a DR man you are not too generous to SV.


Edited by abc, 31 July 2014 - 16:09.


#1785 andrewr

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:19

Don't forget :

Vettel has sub optimal kers in Monaco Q - can't count Dan being ahead
Ricciardo loses his monkey seat off the rear wing in Hungary - must count Vettel being ahead

 

The 2014 version of a "cracked chassis" I guess.



#1786 milestone 11

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:34

The young man obviously listened when he was told to pull his socks up,

691858-9292fe56-f20d-11e3-94a8-09c2117d0



#1787 1Devil1

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:46

The young man obviously listened when he was told to pull his socks up,

691858-9292fe56-f20d-11e3-94a8-09c2117d0

 

Who is Dan showing the middle finger  :eek:



#1788 milestone 11

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:55

Index actually. Just getting in a bit of early practice.



#1789 george1981

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 19:10

Index actually. Just getting in a bit of early practice.

The whole team are doing it. It's like they could see forward in time and are having a joke at Sebastian "finger boy" Vettel's expense.



#1790 bourbon

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Posted Yesterday, 22:28

Finger Boy and Jolly Teeth having more fun:

 



#1791 Thomas99

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Posted Today, 01:26

Finger Boy and Jolly Teeth having more fun:

 

 

How do you understand what they're saying? :(



#1792 bourbon

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Posted Today, 07:04

How do you understand what they're saying? :(

 

It is a bit tough if you don't speak German.  But you can make it out if you concentrate as they are speaking in English.  How about Dan's dance move?  That was hilarious.