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Sebastian Vettel vs Daniel Ricciardo 2014 part II


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#3301 Zava

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Posted Today, 08:48

 

Drivermeme_zps6693d396.jpg

I just don't get it, could someone explain the so called similarities between the looks of that girly faced lil' jerk and our own 'ugly as' Seb? :confused:

 

if I've made that PS, I would've totally put this head on his body:

hugh-laurie-dr-house-1985-2012-01.jpg

:p



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#3302 Brother Fox

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Posted Today, 09:07

Go back a few years when Seb was younger and he looked a lot like Justine Bieber

#3303 GhostR

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Posted Today, 10:07

I see a few comments about the weather forecast and that it's been suggesting rain every day.

 

If it's anything like it was when I was there a few weeks back, it'll rain every day. But by the time the cars hit the track it'll have dried out. The rain happens in the morning and/or early afternoon, and it's generally so hot that the paved areas dry out almost as soon as the rain stops. I wouldn't expect rain to affect the action much, if at all.



#3304 apoka

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Posted Today, 10:13

Yeah, Seb just seems to "gel" with this track for some reason.

 

This is his best chance for a win and given the hype RBR management are putting out, they obviously feel the same.

 

I don't think Dan particularly enjoys this track, so it will be interesting to see how he goes.  Well, I hope!

 

I don't think it matters a lot whether Seb gels with a track. Apart from qualy driving fast is not the primary key to success in F1, but you have to manage resources as well. Over the past years, Seb has excelled in that area, but it appears to be his Achilles heel now - at least versus Ricciardo who is regularly making the grid look like amateurs when it comes to strategy and tyre management in the last part of the race. At the moment, neither RB nor Seb seem to actually know what the problem is despite all telemetry data, so it is hard to believe that it will be resolved in a single race. Nevertheless, I think he can beat Ricciardo in Singapore, but the gap to the Mercs is still significant and you just need some luck to get past them.



#3305 rickf1rb

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Posted Today, 10:38

http://www.motorspor...webber/?v=2&s=1

Mark Webber thinks "small, subtle details" are all that is holding back his former F1 colleagues Sebastian Vettel and Kimi Raikkonen in 2014.

Both champions have struggled this year as F1 took the step into the radical turbo V6 era, with Webber's former teammate Vettel notably failing to match the impressive pace of his Red Bull successor Daniel Ricciardo.

Australian Webber, who stepped out of F1 at the end of last year and now races a prototype Porsche at Le Mans, joked that it is as though Vettel inherited his old car for the new era.

"Don't you think so?" he smiled to Finland's Turun Sanomat newspaper. "It does seem as though all the difficulties happen in that one car."

It's not easy and then you start to dig the hole deeper and deeper for yourself.

Mark Webber

Webber and Vettel shared a tetchy relationship at Red Bull, but he declines to jump on the bandwagon of those who say 2014 has simply revealed the German's true colours.

Asked why he thinks Vettel is struggling, Webber answered: "It's impossible to say for sure, but almost certainly it is small, subtle details between the car and the driver.

"It is clear that Seb and Kimi have not got the feeling they need, while Daniel seems to be very comfortable with these new cars.

"At this level, the way F1 is, that's all about how a driver gets those last 2-3 crucial tenths out of the car.

"I think Seb and Kimi have two problems: a lack of feeling for the car and then not getting the setup they need. It's not easy and then you start to dig the hole deeper and deeper for yourself," said the 38-year-old.

Too much experience

Webber said he also thinks Raikkonen's vast experience in Formula One has actually contributed to his struggle in 2014 with the radically different, turbo V6 'power units'.

"When you've been driving at F1 level for 10, 12 years, it means you've driven V10, V8 and now V6. An experienced driver can almost have too much information and too much sense of what the cars used to be.

"Sometimes less experience is better when the rules change, and that does seem to be the case especially this season," he added.

"In fact, I feel that I left just at the right time," Webber smiled.



#3306 skc

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Posted Today, 10:42

Webber is echoing JPM's comments there. I would think those guys know what they are talking about.

 

On the other hand we still have Alonso who just flat out thinks Seb is overrated, so I suppose it all depends on which side of the "fan/not a fan" fence you sit on when it comes to regarding their comments.



#3307 rickf1rb

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Posted Today, 10:42

Seb can't get the positive feedback of setup,all is his own false?



#3308 Thomas99

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Posted Today, 12:28

Webber is echoing JPM's comments there. I would think those guys know what they are talking about.

 

On the other hand we still have Alonso who just flat out thinks Seb is overrated, so I suppose it all depends on which side of the "fan/not a fan" fence you sit on when it comes to regarding their comments.

 

I don't see the difference between not performing due to 'lack of feel' or 'lack of talent'. People use fancy words to dress it up "they're not comfortable, they don't have the feel, they don't like these regulations" it all means the same thing, that driver is driving slower.

 

The difference between a driver not capable of delivering that performance and a driver who isn't capable because he can't adapt to a style of car is elementary and basically meaningless.


Edited by Thomas99, Today, 12:31.


#3309 skc

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Posted Today, 12:41

I don't see the difference between not performing due to 'lack of feel' or 'lack of talent'. People use fancy words to dress it up "they're not comfortable, they don't have the feel, they don't like these regulations" it all means the same thing, that driver is driving slower.

 

The difference between a driver not capable of delivering that performance and a driver who isn't capable because he can't adapt to a style of car is elementary and basically meaningless.

 

The problem with the "lack of talent" label is that it is too absolute and more often than not will come back to bite you in the end.

 

For example, if Daniel has a stinker next year does it mean he then becomes instantly a talentless hack?

 

Is Raikonnen a no talent driver now too?

 

I mean you could say so, but I find that kind of reasoning illogical.



#3310 Thomas99

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Posted Today, 12:51

The problem with the "lack of talent" label is that it is too absolute and more often than not will come back to bite you in the end.

 

For example, if Daniel has a stinker next year does it mean he then becomes instantly a talentless hack?

 

Is Raikonnen a no talent driver now too?

 

I mean you could say so, but I find that kind of reasoning illogical.

 

No one is saying they are 'no talent' but the way people talk its like if they don't like the machinery or it doesn't suit them then its no reflection on their ability. Ultimately it still comes down to their performance as a driver. 


Edited by Thomas99, Today, 13:03.


#3311 skc

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Posted Today, 13:47

No one is saying they are 'no talent' but the way people talk its like if they don't like the machinery or it doesn't suit them then its no reflection on their ability. Ultimately it still comes down to their performance as a driver. 

 

On the contrary actually. Sebs failure to manage his tyres is a failing of his and his alone. Most fans of him have said this repeatedly, so I'm not sure where you're seeing people absolving him of any responsibility.

 

You said

I don't see the difference between not performing due to 'lack of feel' or 'lack of talent'.

 

So you can't now turn around and say No one is saying they are 'no talent'

 

You said it.



#3312 grichka

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Posted Today, 13:47

Regulations clearly suits Ricciardo. He had a lot of worse tire management in TorroRosso, often going backwards in the last part of the races. No one kept saying last year that he was one of the best in term of tire management -  it was actually the opposite with a lot of experts saying his race pace was simply bad(that's why many questioned RBR choosing him over Raikkonnen). In a couple of seasons it may be him who will meet another regulation change that may not suit him. Btw, Bottas also looked bad in races last season compared to Maldonaldo who was spanking Valteri in most of races - it was only when Williams took the coanda off Bottas found the right feel for the car.


Edited by grichka, Today, 14:06.


#3313 skc

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Posted Today, 13:51

Exactly, now imagine labelling Daniel or any other driver as "lacking talent" if that happened. Hamilton struggled with tyre wear too, compared even to Button. I suppose he lacked talent then as well. It's absurd.

#3314 Thomas99

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Posted Today, 14:29

Exactly, now imagine labelling Daniel or any other driver as "lacking talent" if that happened. Hamilton struggled with tyre wear too, compared even to Button. I suppose he lacked talent then as well. It's absurd.

 

You seem to continue to misunderstand that term as meaning them having 'no talent' or overall lacking in talent. That is not what it means in this context. It just means it is on them, it is their own internal performance issue that causes it. Not that they as a driver 'lack talent' rather that that underperformance is a reflection on their talent to be taken with their other virtues.

 

I already responded to you explaining this and you keep taking my quote out of context and putting words in my mouth. its quite irritating. 


Edited by Thomas99, Today, 14:36.


#3315 icecream

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Posted Today, 14:31

ability to adapt is one measure of a drivers talent.  

 

that is not to say vettel cannot adapt, but as webber alludes, it's quiet hard to unlearn a driving style and vettel perhaps has 4 years of driving to unlearn.



#3316 Thomas99

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Posted Today, 14:33

ability to adapt is one measure of a drivers talent.  

 

that is not to say vettel cannot adapt, but as webber alludes, it's quiet hard to unlearn a driving style and vettel perhaps has 4 years of driving to unlearn.

 

My point was, maybe other drivers who under perform just don't like the car, or aren't comfortable or whatever, but you don't hear people saying it every race. When was the last time someone said "Adrian Sutil, he doesn't like the car!" they don't. They just say "Sutil had a bad race" and move on.

 

Its just front running drivers that tend to get a shopping list of reasons drawn up for them. I guarantee you if Ricciardo was the one struggling with the car people wouldn't be saying that, they'd just be saying Vettel is better than he is.


Edited by Thomas99, Today, 14:33.


#3317 skc

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Posted Today, 14:38

My point was, maybe other drivers who under perform just don't like the car, or aren't comfortable or whatever, but you don't hear people saying it every race. When was the last time someone said "Adrian Sutil, he doesn't like the car!" they don't. They just say "Sutil had a bad race" and move on.

 

Well be honest though, isn't that exactly what we've been saying about Seb, that he's been dreadful this season?

 

Oh and of course Sutil doesn't like the car, he can't even hope to get a podium with it. He would love a Merc though, I can assure you of that :)



#3318 Thomas99

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Posted Today, 14:48

Well be honest though, isn't that exactly what we've been saying about Seb, that he's been dreadful this season?

 

Oh and of course Sutil doesn't like the car, he can't even hope to get a podium with it. He would love a Merc though, I can assure you of that :)

 

I think seasons just average out.

 

So if you have two seasons that people rate as 9/10 and one season people rate as 5/10 people will still rate you as an 8/10 driver, so if you have long term high performance levels a 'low' season doesn't drag your rating down that far compared to the guys who never had much rating. 



#3319 skc

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Posted Today, 14:56

I think seasons just average out.

 

So if you have two seasons that people rate as 9/10 and one season people rate as 5/10 people will still rate you as an 8/10 driver, so if you have long term high performance levels a 'low' season doesn't drag your rating down that far compared to the guys who never had much rating. 

 

I agree with that in principle, but it's problematic in Sebs case. Because he had 4 excellent years (arguably 5)

 

So using that metric what should his rating be against Daniel for example?

 

It would have to be higher (much higher in fact). So the only way to make it work such that Dan comes out as the superior driver is to rate Sebs title winning years quite low. And at that point we've devolved into junk science in my opinion.



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#3320 Thomas99

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Posted Today, 15:14

I agree with that in principle, but it's problematic in Sebs case. Because he had 4 excellent years (arguably 5)

So using that metric what should his rating be against Daniel for example?

It would have to be higher (much higher in fact). So the only way to make it work such that Dan comes out as the superior driver is to rate Sebs title winning years quite low. And at that point we've devolved into junk science in my opinion.


When two drivers are team mates it's ridiculously easy to compare them, just look at it race by race.

#3321 skc

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Posted Today, 15:16

When two drivers are team mates it's ridiculously easy to compare them, just look at it race by race.

 

Full agreement.



#3322 TomNokoe

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Posted Today, 15:16

Renault talking about wanting a pole position, Marko says Vettel can win this weekend, Ricciardo still harbours title hopes... something in the air at Red Bull.

#3323 skc

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Posted Today, 15:18

Renault talking about wanting a pole position, Marko says Vettel can win this weekend, Ricciardo still harbours title hopes... something in the air at Red Bull.

 

Dejavu.

 

Horner has said all this quite a few times this season. And yet the gap to Merc just seems to widen.



#3324 Brother Fox

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Posted Today, 15:30

Renault talking about wanting a pole position, Marko says Vettel can win this weekend, Ricciardo still harbours title hopes... something in the air at Red Bull.

Paint fumes?

#3325 goingthedistance

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Posted Today, 17:03

Dan seems to rate Seb's chances, I agree that there's nothing wrong with Seb's pace at this point, it's just his tyre management:

 

"I don't think he's struggling as much as anyone thinks. He's out-qualified me in the last three races now, so he's obviously got to grips with it better. I think my Sundays, my race performances, has been the surprising one, it's been really good.

 

I think what I've had going for me in the last few races has been tyre management; it seems I've been able to look after them a bit better. In terms of pure speed I think he's up to speed now with everything and as you've seen he's pushed me in the last few qualifying sessions. I think from now until the end of the year there shouldn't be any more question-marks; whoever's in front is in front."

http://en.espnf1.com...kxcxiSVDULTl.99



#3326 Kvothe

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Posted Today, 17:05

Renault talking about wanting a pole position, Marko says Vettel can win this weekend, Ricciardo still harbours title hopes... something in the air at Red Bull.

THC?



#3327 apoka

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Posted Today, 17:39

Contrast the following statement with Webber vs. Vettel:

 

Ricciardo: "Seb and I are acting the same as we were back in January, February. I can't say he's changed; I've had the best of him so far and he hasn't held that against me. He's still been very respectful, every victory I've had he's come up and said well done or if he's had to shoot off he's sent me a message saying well done. It hasn't changed and I definitely respect him for that; as far as team-mates go it can't really get too much better."

http://en.espnf1.com...kxcxiSVDULTl.99

 

 



#3328 apoka

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Posted Today, 17:42

Dan seems to rate Seb's chances, I agree that there's nothing wrong with Seb's pace at this point, it's just his tyre management:

 

Unfortunately, there are no easy fixes for tyre management - in a way it seems to be the black art of F1.   ;)



#3329 goingthedistance

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Posted Today, 17:56

Unfortunately, there are no easy fixes for tyre management - in a way it seems to be the black art of F1.   ;)


Sometimes I think there's no such thing as tyre management, just a random combination of a driver's inherent style and the differing compounds Pirelli produce each year.

#3330 DrF

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Posted Today, 18:06

When is Vettels contract up?

I've a suspicion he's already signed with another team and RB team is now behind DR while Vettel no longer has anyone to impress (and a baby on the way?)

#3331 Skinnyguy

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Posted Today, 18:08

Sometimes I think there's no such thing as tyre management, just a random combination of a driver's inherent style and the differing compounds Pirelli produce each year.

 

Well all of this was no doubt more fair when teams and tyre suppliers worked for performance with multiple options to suit tracks, styles, cars, etc.

 

But I think it´s unfair to imply the drivers are subject to a lottery and nothing is inside their control. The material is the same for everybody, and this is the game they´re playing now, and the game they must get good at. It is not the fairest way, but it´s still equal for everybody and they must perform in this scenario.



#3332 OilFour

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Posted Today, 19:48

ability to adapt is one measure of a drivers talent.  

 

that is not to say vettel cannot adapt, but as webber alludes, it's quiet hard to unlearn a driving style and vettel perhaps has 4 years of driving to unlearn.

I don't want to be an a$$, but the same goes for all the drivers, especially with all the changes 2013 -> 2014.



#3333 skc

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Posted Today, 20:00

I don't want to be an a$$, but the same goes for all the drivers, especially with all the changes 2013 -> 2014.

 

Not exactly.

 

The guy that's winning all the time doesn't need to try and change his driving style. The guys chasing him all the time would have probably had no choice but to try every other trick in the book though.



#3334 VICtorian071

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Posted Today, 22:19

Regulations clearly suits Ricciardo. He had a lot of worse tire management in TorroRosso, often going backwards in the last part of the races. No one kept saying last year that he was one of the best in term of tire management -  it was actually the opposite with a lot of experts saying his race pace was simply bad(that's why many questioned RBR choosing him over Raikkonnen). In a couple of seasons it may be him who will meet another regulation change that may not suit him. Btw, Bottas also looked bad in races last season compared to Maldonaldo who was spanking Valteri in most of races - it was only when Williams took the coanda off Bottas found the right feel for the car.

To be fair, when you are a mid field team, you use too many tyres through qualifying to get through to Q3, so couple that with a slow car and his top 7 finishes were not bad at all.



#3335 icecream

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Posted Today, 22:35

I don't want to be an a$$, but the same goes for all the drivers, especially with all the changes 2013 -> 2014.

 

this is certainly true, but i more meant with respect to the EBD technology which apparently had a strong bearing on vettel's driving technique.



#3336 lbennie

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Posted Today, 23:35

I don't see the difference between not performing due to 'lack of feel' or 'lack of talent'. People use fancy words to dress it up "they're not comfortable, they don't have the feel, they don't like these regulations" it all means the same thing, that driver is driving slower.

 

The difference between a driver not capable of delivering that performance and a driver who isn't capable because he can't adapt to a style of car is elementary and basically meaningless.

 

Exactly, if the driver in question has a big fan base, they seem to get many excuses thrown about, many articles written about why they are struggling & where, tyres, regulations etc etc. Where as your Ericsson's just get labelled as bad, when im sure they are having their own similar problems.