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Confirmed - Standing restarts from 2015 [UPDATE - Or maybe not!]


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Poll: Do you approve of the standing-restart rule that will be introduced in 2015? (338 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you approve of the standing-restart rule that will be introduced in 2015?

  1. Yes (48 votes [14.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.24%

  2. No (289 votes [85.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 85.76%

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#451 Kristian

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 22:47

Has it actually been reversed though? We only have Bernie's word for it, and he's not known for being entirely accurate with these things. 



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#452 midgrid

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:44

Perhaps it's part of his latest plea deal.

#453 Suntrek

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:48

I sincerely hope Bernie is right. This idea of standing restarts is even dumber than the double points idea. In a normal start at the beginning of any race we can all agree that those starting from the "dirty side" - IE off racingline - have a minor disadvantage. This may be a small disadvantage or a big one depending on track.

 

Now, let's say we have a standing restart with Pirelli marbles konfetti all over the non-racingline. Or we have a restart after a bit of rain when racing line is dry but anything off racingline is still wet. You can all figure out the implications of this idiotic concept for yourselves.

 

EDIT: spelling


Edited by Suntrek, 30 July 2014 - 08:55.


#454 Alexis*27

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 13:06

You can all figure out the implications of this idiotic concept for yourselves.

 

 

Fun and entertainment?

 

Seriously, if you want to sanitise every facet of F1, why not just ditch standing starts altogether and impose a speed limit.

 

Or just have qualifying to decide the fastest driver and then all go home.



#455 Alexis*27

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 13:10

Nonsense. With a rolling restart every car gets to nail the throttle earlier than the car behind, i.e. as he exits the last corner. So the cars are naturally much more spread out than under a standing start. So cars are much less liklely to be racing side-by-side through the first few corners. And on a standing start, it generally takes significantly more than one corner before everybody ends up on the conventional racing line.

 

Yes, for the first couple of corners. Raikonnen's off was about a quarter of the way through the lap.

 

But what's the issue with cars racing side by side? Isn't that the whole freakin point of racing???



#456 Suntrek

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 13:49

Fun and entertainment?

 

Seriously, if you want to sanitise every facet of F1, why not just ditch standing starts altogether and impose a speed limit.

 

Or just have qualifying to decide the fastest driver and then all go home.

Fair enough. You want fun and entertainment.  There are probably a gazillion comedy TV series and surely  some travelling circuses out there more than happy to satisfy your needs. I don't understand why you post in an F1 forum, however.

 

 Now seriously, I point out how unfair a standing restart can be and all you come up with is some bla bla totally taken out of the blue which adds nothing to the discussion at hand.  



#457 redreni

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 15:37

I'm waiting for an official announcement before I congratulate F1 for this. It would deserve praise - it can be difficult to admit you're wrong and pull back from doing something stupid after it's been announced.

 

But assuming what Bernie said is true, having avoided what would have been a backward step, can F1 now catch up with the ACO and set about using technology to introduce local, speed-limited slow-zones as an alternative to the full-course caution and SC, for incidents that don't require men to work on the track for protracted periods? And will they finally realise the folly of wave-bys? And will they take another look at the proposals for success ballast, and the double-points rule? And in future, before they announce a rule change, maybe they could get a second person to read it through once first, just to check it's not a complete pile of steaming bull crap?



#458 Gyno

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 16:48

And in future, before they announce a rule change, maybe they could get a second person to read it through once first, just to check it's not a complete pile of steaming bull crap?

That's just to much to ask from them.



#459 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 17:18

I'm waiting for an official announcement before I congratulate F1 for this. It would deserve praise - it can be difficult to admit you're wrong and pull back from doing something stupid after it's been announced.

 

But assuming what Bernie said is true, having avoided what would have been a backward step, can F1 now catch up with the ACO and set about using technology to introduce local, speed-limited slow-zones as an alternative to the full-course caution and SC, for incidents that don't require men to work on the track for protracted periods? And will they finally realise the folly of wave-bys? And will they take another look at the proposals for success ballast, and the double-points rule? And in future, before they announce a rule change, maybe they could get a second person to read it through once first, just to check it's not a complete pile of steaming bull crap?

Maybe if they do, I'll start watching the races again. 



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#460 Alexis*27

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 11:45

"The FIA has said that it doesn't consider grid starts to be any more dangerous than what happens now with the cars getting back underway in single file behind the safety car. But I believe they need to look at the starts of the recent British and German Grands Prix for evidence that this is not so."

 

​So what do you want to do Gary? Eliminate EVERYTHING that is potentially dangerous? Presumably not, so why is it ok for things to be a little bit dangerous? Either that or danger is fine, but it's ok being dangerous because it's 'only' 19 times a year.

 

So why not have rolling starts at every race and no wet running at any time. 

 

By all means argue against standing restarts for other reasons, but to cry danger is just drivel.



#461 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 11:47

"The FIA has said that it doesn't consider grid starts to be any more dangerous than what happens now with the cars getting back underway in single file behind the safety car. But I believe they need to look at the starts of the recent British and German Grands Prix for evidence that this is not so."

 

​So what do you want to do Gary? Eliminate EVERYTHING that is potentially dangerous? Presumably not, so why is it ok for things to be a little bit dangerous? Either that or danger is fine, but it's ok being dangerous because it's 'only' 19 times a year.

 

So why not have rolling starts at every race and no wet running at any time. 

 

By all means argue against standing restarts for other reasons, but to cry danger is just drivel.

 

 

How about the argument increased danger? 



#462 johnmhinds

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 16:58

"The FIA has said that it doesn't consider grid starts to be any more dangerous than what happens now with the cars getting back underway in single file behind the safety car. But I believe they need to look at the starts of the recent British and German Grands Prix for evidence that this is not so."

 

​So what do you want to do Gary? Eliminate EVERYTHING that is potentially dangerous? Presumably not, so why is it ok for things to be a little bit dangerous? Either that or danger is fine, but it's ok being dangerous because it's 'only' 19 times a year.

 

So why not have rolling starts at every race and no wet running at any time. 

 

By all means argue against standing restarts for other reasons, but to cry danger is just drivel.

 

I'm not going to speak for Gary Anderson, but it doesn't sound like he wants to eliminate all danger, he is just against adding this extra element of danger to add excitement to the show.

 

A rolling restart where cars are more spread out is inherently safer than a standing start with a bunched up groups of cars, so it seems unusual for the FIA to say there is no difference in the danger it puts the drivers in.



#463 Nonesuch

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 17:36

... it seems unusual for the FIA to say there is no difference in the danger it puts the drivers in.

 

If the FIA states publically that standing starts are more dangerous than other forms of starting the race, and if it is the case that not all FIA championships use standing starts, you only have to wait for one tragic accident to occur after a standing start for people (read: lawyers) to jump on the FIA.


Edited by Nonesuch, 12 August 2014 - 17:36.


#464 johnmhinds

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 17:51

The same could be said for the FIA saying there is no difference between them surely? If someone gets hurt or dies in one of these new standing starts and they've stated there is no extra danger then the lawyers will come down on them for it.

 

I wouldn't think they'd be any more open to legal repercussions for stating the danger levels correctly instead.

Everyone understands that it isn't the FIAs job or aim to eliminate ALL potential dangers at race event that they're involved with, they just try to keep the dangers to a manageable level.

 

They're shooting themselves in the foot here, of course there is more chance of crashes when you're bunching the cars up.


Edited by johnmhinds, 12 August 2014 - 18:01.


#465 Jon83

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 09:21

"The FIA has said that it doesn't consider grid starts to be any more dangerous than what happens now with the cars getting back underway in single file behind the safety car. But I believe they need to look at the starts of the recent British and German Grands Prix for evidence that this is not so."

 

​So what do you want to do Gary? Eliminate EVERYTHING that is potentially dangerous? Presumably not, so why is it ok for things to be a little bit dangerous? Either that or danger is fine, but it's ok being dangerous because it's 'only' 19 times a year.

 

So why not have rolling starts at every race and no wet running at any time. 

 

By all means argue against standing restarts for other reasons, but to cry danger is just drivel.

 

Hic comments are perfectly reasonable.

 

 



#466 bourbon

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 01:58

So have we gotten a final word on this?  Are they in or out?



#467 blub

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 04:59

I recently was watching a race from the early 90’s and I was surprised to see the use of a green light at the start, red then green. On this particular race there was some controversy about some drivers starting too soon, not waiting for the green light. Not long after I started watching F1, 1997 and as I remember it was red lights out and that was it. So, 1+1, no real need to have green lights to start the race, just red lights out and it starts, cause and effect, confusion, mistiming, cheating, cut out the green lights.

So, for several years we have been seeing Vettel slow play the restart of races, it pissed  everyone off, but its legal. This year Rosberg has been doing the same, so, cause and effect the FIA is trying to take control from the drivers to get that perfect race condition at all times. When ever the FIA takes from the drivers it starts looking a lot less like racing and a lot more like managing a result, even if its an intra race result. A better action would be to say the car just behind the safe car must keep to the safety cars speed for the last turn of the track, that speed would be a number that drivers use not eyes on the back of a road car.



#468 Sash1

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 06:23

A restart behind the SC by definition is not a perfect race condition because everyone lost their gaps. So why does the restart have to be perfect?

And if you let the first behind keep the speed of the SC until the last turn. What is to stop everyone else for making small gaps and speed up before that to have an advantage on the straight? 

The most fair way of keeping perfect racing conditions I have seen so far was the Le Mans speed restriction zones under yellow. The same for everyone, just as save as an SC for everyone working there, gaps are maintained and people are still entertained. But F1 thinks it will not work for them.



#469 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 06:48

You know how we have the delta times to keep drivers under a certain speed when the SC comes out? What about doing that to restore the race to its previous condition?

 

So let's say Hamilton is leading by 3s from Rosberg, then there's Chilton a lap down and 5s behind. Then we have Ricciardo and Alonso, a further 20s back with 2s between them. So the SC comes in with 1 lap until green. Now Hamilton has a delta time to stick to for one lap until he is shown the green.

 

The race control computer has automatically worked out delta times for all drivers so that Rosberg's delta time will take him over the line 3s after Hamilton. Chilton's will take him over 5s behind Rosberg. Ricciardo's will take him over 20s behind Chilton, etc.

 

Hamilton's delta will be such that he would be driving at say 90% pace. He will want to drive as fast as possible without exceeding the delta. That gives everyone a chance to accelerate when they need to. As the cars cross the line, the race is restored to as it was before.

 

Drivers who pitted under yellow will have their pitting time (so 20s or whatever) added to the delta. The idea is that pitting under yellow would not confer any advantage, so the pits would be safer as only cars that have damage would come into the pits.

 

I'm sure it would take a bit of testing to iron out the bugs, but I'm sure the race control computer is up to it. We would keep the race neutralised and the cars bunched up for marshals to work, but we'd keep the race situation as it was and do away with the wasted laps while cars unlap themselves. It would also result in fewer yellows breeding yellows.



#470 kraduk

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 07:20

Or you could run it like it is now, but not let the front driver drop the boot until the start finish line. That way everyone knows when the leader is going to go and there are no funnies. Yes everyone will close up, but that sounds like fun



#471 johnmhinds

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 16:39

The lead driver having the option to outwit the guy behind him and make that gap adds something interesting to the rolling restarts.

It isn't his fault if the guy behind him is half asleep.

 

Forcing him to be a sitting duck (after a safety car that probably wasn't caused by him) isn't a more fair way to do it.



#472 BullHead

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 19:39

Seriously, just leave it the way it is.

#473 Risil

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 14:51

The lead driver having the option to outwit the guy behind him and make that gap adds something interesting to the rolling restarts.

It isn't his fault if the guy behind him is half asleep.

 

I can barely remember the last time the leading driver hasn't jumped off into the distance successfully. Decade or more probably.



#474 johnmhinds

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 16:08

I can barely remember the last time the leading driver hasn't jumped off into the distance successfully. Decade or more probably.

 

That true I guess, the only notable overtake I think of off the top of my head following a restart was Montoya vs Schumacher at Brazil once.

 



#475 spacekid

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 16:17

"The FIA has said that it doesn't consider grid starts to be any more dangerous than what happens now with the cars getting back underway in single file behind the safety car. But I believe they need to look at the starts of the recent British and German Grands Prix for evidence that this is not so."

​So what do you want to do Gary? Eliminate EVERYTHING that is potentially dangerous? Presumably not, so why is it ok for things to be a little bit dangerous? Either that or danger is fine, but it's ok being dangerous because it's 'only' 19 times a year.

So why not have rolling starts at every race and no wet running at any time.

By all means argue against standing restarts for other reasons, but to cry danger is just drivel.


I don't see how Gary is crying danger. His point appears to be - the FIA say grid starts are no more dangerous than rolling starts behind the SC, but here's some examples to argue that is not correct.

Where's the drivel? Where is he trying to outlaw danger, or made any comment on how much relative danger is acceptable?

All Gary has done is say here is a statement, here is an argument that that statement is false. Perfectly reasonable.

#476 midgrid

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 13:34

That true I guess, the only notable overtake I think of off the top of my head following a restart was Montoya vs Schumacher at Brazil once.


He did the same thing in Australia the next year, although on this occasion he was aided by theoretical leader Coulthard going off at the final corner and distracting Schumacher.

#477 LORDBYRON

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 22:44

Come monaco next year there is a good chance half the field will not fishing due to there clutch failing 


Edited by iii, 17 August 2014 - 22:44.