114 replies to this topic

[NoSanityClause]

Sebastian doesn't need Mark or anybody else to be phenomenal, he just is.  

Well, he certainly doesn't need Ricciardo!

[sennafan24]

Sebastian doesn't need Mark or anybody else to be phenomenal, he just is.  

Disagree. I think you need some sort of measurement in equal machinery

 

A point some have missed in this thread, is that whilst I think Webber was an average at best driver in 2013, Seb still did not give him an inch, That is what a top-level driver should do to inferior drivers. Saying that Webber was crap in 2013, does not mean I am saying Vettel's 2013 is overrated. 

 

Yes Webber did get a few poles, but one of them was assisted by a mechanical problem for Seb. The other was helped by Seb making a obvious error. Webber never finished ahead of Seb in 2013 when both finished. The only weekend Webber got a better result was when Seb retired at Silverstone.

 

My point is, I wish Webber would have stuck around in F1, so we could determine beyond opinion how good he was relative to other drivers.

[IamFasterthanU]

Disagree. I think you need some sort of measurement in equal machinery

 

A point some have missed in this thread, is that whilst I think Webber was an average at best driver in 2013, Seb still did not give him an inch, That is what a top-level driver should do to inferior drivers. Saying that Webber was crap in 2013, does not mean I am saying Vettel's 2013 is overrated. 

 

Yes Webber did get a few poles, but one of them was assisted by a mechanical problem for Seb. The other was helped by Seb making a obvious error. Webber never finished ahead of Seb in 2013 when both finished. The only weekend Webber got a better result was when Seb retired at Silverstone.

 

My point is, I wish Webber would have stuck around in F1, so we could determine beyond opinion how good he was relative to other drivers.

 

Well, I believe Webber's disadvantage to seb was exaggerated by his woeful starts. In clean air his pace wasn't bad as compared to seb but his bad starts ensured that he was always in someone's dirty air. This coupled with poor straightline speed meant he could finish on podium at max. .  

[bourbon]

Disagree. I think you need some sort of measurement in equal machinery

 

If the machinery were equal, Lewis wouldn't have such a big deficit right now.

 

A point some have missed in this thread, is that whilst I think Webber was an average at best driver in 2013, Seb still did not give him an inch, That is what a top-level driver should do to inferior drivers. Saying that Webber was crap in 2013, does not mean I am saying Vettel's 2013 is overrated. 

 

Well I think we both know this does not apply to me - I don't use teammate warz to rate drivers.  Although I know people do it, in this instance, I didn't consider you were degrading Webber for the purpose of demeaning Seb.  However, whoever said Webbo had the potential to win 13 races in 2013 probably also believes Hamilton could have won Oz on the basis of his teammate having finished 8 races.

 

Yes Webber did get a few poles, but one of them was assisted by a mechanical problem for Seb. The other was helped by Seb making a obvious error. Webber never finished ahead of Seb in 2013 when both finished. The only weekend Webber got a better result was when Seb retired at Silverstone.

 

Interesting how much credit you are willing to give Vettel in 2013 for mistakes and power issues considering you give absolutely no quarter for either this season.  It does kind of seem like you have something against Webber.  Don't get me wrong - I have lots and lots against Webber, but water under the bridge and all that. 

 

My point is, I wish Webber would have stuck around in F1, so we could determine beyond opinion how good he was relative to other drivers.

 

Well this would be a meaningless test for me, so I can't feel you on that one.  But I respect your right to make wishes. 

Edited by bourbon, 01 July 2014 - 17:00.

[sennafan24]

I have given Seb leeway for his mechanical failures this year. If you check my post in the Seb vs D.R thread. I broke down the head to head based on straight fights between the two drivers. I let Seb off the hook for Spain, Monaco and other occasions where he was hindered.

 

I hate the term "make your own luck", as a few agenda driven posters (who shall remain nameless), have used it to discredit Lewis this year. But last year Seb did make his own luck by simply qualifying well, and starting well. Once in clean air, he could manage whatever issues came his way much better than Webber could in dirty air

 

I do not really have a problem with Webber as such. I enjoyed his impression of Mansell a few months ago, if anyone wants me to give him some credit  . Seriously, he was a decent driver from 2006-2010, but as Seb went one way, Webber went the other. By 2013, I felt Webber was a bit like Ricardo Patrese in 1993

 

Fair point about teammate issues not always being "equal"

Edited by sennafan24, 01 July 2014 - 17:11.

[sopa]

My post was slightly tongue in cheek, even if I believe in the sentiment

 

Yeah mate, sometimes discussions can be so confusing that don't know, what to take seriously and what not.

[sennafan24]

Yeah mate, sometimes discussions can be so confusing that don't know, what to take seriously and what not.

No problem, I enjoy debating with you 

[sopa]

Why wouldn't they sack Trulli.. He only proved that he was only good for one lap but his race pace was no match for Alonso.

Fisi was a better prospect at the time to be honest..

 

Ironically the same Renault/Briatore had replaced Fisichella with Trulli before 2002, despite Fisi himself having a remarkable year in 2001 by beating Button.

 

Something doesn't add up. Trulli was clearly rated highly by Briatore, but their management contract ran to an end in 2004. Trulli had been under Briatore's guidance since the beginning of his F1 career. Until then Briatore saw it as a priority to work on Trulli's career, but after 2004 it was unimportant for him and as there were other good drivers on the market too, it was all too easy to replace Trulli and start with a clean sheet. Better with a new driver than with a bad/frozen relationship with a former driver.

 

All this stuff doesn't have much to do with Alonso or Fisichella if I am honest. This was a very personal issue between Trulli and Briatore. For whatever reason Trulli felt that he didn't needed Briatore as his manager any more and Briatore felt that "okay then, go away". Why Trulli felt like that? Maybe because he was alongside Alonso and felt he was going to be a #2 driver anyway there. So he knowingly rather took a gamble and tried to establish himself as a lead driver in a different upcoming team (Renault was upcoming at that time too, like Toyota).

[ElAbuelo]

Drivers VS Teammates:

Senna, bet his team mate in qualify 88%.of gp's
Finished in front  of his team mate, in 70% of gp's
won 62% of his teams points. His team mates: 38%

 

Prost, bet his team mate in qualify 66%.of gp's
Finished in front  of his team mate, in 64% of gp's
won 62% of his teams points.

 

Schumacher , bet his team mate in qualify 74%.of gp's
Finished in front  of his team mate, in 66% of gp's
won 60% of his teams points.

 

Vettel , bet his team mate in qualify 71%.of gp's
Finished in front  of his team mate, in 66% of gp's
won 60% of his teams points.

 

Hamilton , bet his team mate in qualify 69%.of gp's
Finished in front  of his team mate, in 56% of gp's
won 51% of his teams points.

 

Rosberg, bet his team mate in qualify 66%.of gp's
Finished in front  of his team mate in 60% of gp's
won 58% of his teams points.

 

Raikkonen, bet his team mate in qualify 59%.of gp's
Finished in front  of his team mate in 59% of gp's
won 56% of his teams points.

 

Button, bet his team mate in qualify 43%.of gp's

Finished in front  of his team mate in 58% of gp's
won 55% of his teams points.

 

Massa, bet his team mate in qualify 37%.of gp's
Finished in front  of his team mate in 32% of gp's
won 36% of his teams points.

 

 

Alonso , bet his team mate in qualify 73%.of gp's
Finished in front  of his team mate, in 76% of gp's
won 70% of his teams points.

 

 

Qualify

Sen 88% team mates, 12%

Sch 74%

Alo 73%

Vet 71%

Ham 69%

Prost 66%

Ros  66%

Kim 59%

But 43%

Mas 37%

 

Race:

Alo 76% of times, in front of team mate

Sen 70%

Sch 66%

Vet 66%

Pro 64%

Ros 60%

Rai 59%

But 58%

Ham 56%

Mas 32%

 

Points

Alo 70% of team points, 30% team mate.

Sen 62%

Pro 62%

Sch 60%

Vet  60%

Ros 58%

Rai 56%

But 55%

Ham 51%

Mas 36%

[pokerkid]

i'm confused again. How is Alonso only second to Senna, in qualifying % vs team mates when everyone keeps telling me his weakness is qualifying? Even more surprising considering almost all his team mates have been qualifying specialists

 

elabuleo did you include schumachers comeback statistics in your calculations? You shouldn't  because its not really fair and reflective to include 3 years when he was in his 40s and past his prime.

[sennafan24]

Great findings    Context has done Prost and Lewis a bit of hardship there, they both have/had very tough teammate schedules. Schumi's stats are distorted slightly by his comeback.

 

Senna and Alonso are the juice, and the stats there in relation to their teammates prove it  

Edited by sennafan24, 02 July 2014 - 10:42.

[Neophiliac]

MS has done his stats no favors in the second career. Rosberg finished ahead as many times as all the previous teammates put together!

[discover23]

i'm confused again. How is Alonso only second to Senna, in qualifying % vs team mates when everyone keeps telling me his weakness is qualifying? Even more surprising considering almost all his team mates have been qualifying specialists

Is a myth that began last year when Massa outqualified him for 3 consecutive races.

[ElAbuelo]

I use the data, from http://f1-facts.com/stats/team-mates

[Ncedi]

Massa is so unlucky in that stat. I mean the guy faced Alonso and Schumacher...