94 replies to this topic

[SanDiegoGo]

It's more or less confirmed that McLaren turned him down because he was felt to be too tall and heavy. 

 

He had a contract ready to sign from Ferrari until the whole Alonso gone - Kimi available saga started. 

 

There really hasn't been a place available at Red Bull. 

 

The same goes for Mercedes who btw wasn't much of a top team until perhaps last year. 

 

So I think it's fair to say he is and has been on top teams radar but timing just hasn't worked. 

 

Don't forget that drivers such as Häkkinen, Mansell and Button had to wait a long, long time for getting into a winning car and in Mansells case championship winning car. 

 

mansell was in a winning car many times in his career. he was nearly world champion in 86 but a tyre blow out in adelaide cost him the title. button and hakkinen had to wait to get a clearly dominant car.

[mclarensmps]

It's gone a bit quiet in here. I found it amusing that Jenson joked about the kick up the backside, with the BBC after the race. I'd be curious to know the conversation he may have had with Dennis on this matter. 

[Nemo1965]

Well, Dennis might think: My ploy worked...

[jwoodmor]

button more or less hamiltons equal? whaaaaaaaaa?

 

Over three seasons and 58 races (which is more than enough for a statistically valid sample size) Jenson had 8 wins, 25 podiums and 672pts.  In the same period and same number of races, Lewis had 10w, 22 podiums and 657pts - this data supports a claim that Button was "more or less" Hamilton's equal.  Of course in the same period, Lewis had 9 pole positions whereas Jenson only had 1, which refutes the argument on an outright speed basis.  However, in terms of earning points and therefore money for the team by virtue of the team's position in the constructors championship, I can agree that they are "more or less" equal.

[SophieB]

Please, please do not start back up Button vs Hamilton.

[jwoodmor]

Sorry, was just answering the question, and specifically the "whaaaaaaa?" statement of incredulity...

[wepmob2000]

Maybe a cunning ploy by Dennis, or a typical corporate ploy of blaming one individual for the whole organisations failings - whereupon the blame would go to the guy in charge. Anyone trying to blame McLaren's woes on the drivers is plainly deluded, just take a look at Red Bull..... Vettel has gone from superstar to also-ran in a few months - the driver is only as good as the car he drives, with perhaps a little difference between drivers in equal cars.

[mclarensmps]

I would like to point out that Dennis hasn't blamed Jenson. He's told him to step up his game.

 

There is a big difference between telling someone to improve, and laying the blame on someone. 

I believe that the conversation had behind the scenes is that Jenson has been told he's driving for his contract, which resulted in him having one of the better races of his season. It could be coincidence, though. 

[V8 Fireworks]

I think Ron Dennis still thinks that Mclaren are a top team. It's pretty insulting how he's behaving towards Button. It's reminiscent of how he played hardball with Hamilton before he went to Mercedes. I think it was Silverstone where he said that Hamilton would have to take a pay cut. Button is a great driver and Mclaren would do well to have a solid driver with reliable feedback for when they get the new engine next year. The way Dennis is behaving they're going to have Magnussen as the lead driver next year. Can't see Alonso going to Mclaren unless he has proof that the Honda engine is a monster. Dennis needs to sort himself out and keep his mouth shut.

 

In all honesty Kvyat or Bianchi would be cheaper and just as good as Button !!!!!!  Same for Hulkenberg

 

IMO a fresh, rejuvinated lineup is what McLaren needs. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 08 July 2014 - 13:34.

[ViMaMo]

I am baffled by some of the comments here. If Hulkenberg was this huge talent, why haven't any of the big teams snatched him?. Do you guys have access to more information than team principals and paddock personnel?

 

I understand your logic. But does it apply and stick to Daniel Ricciardo? 

 

Maybe Hulk is little unlucky?

Edited by ViMaMo, 08 July 2014 - 13:36.

[bonjon1979a]

I understand your logic. But does it apply and stick to Daniel Ricciardo? 

 

Maybe Hulk is little unlucky?

Or too big?

[Nemo1965]

In all honesty Kvyat or Bianchi would be cheaper and just as good as Button !!!!!!  Same for Hulkenberg

 

IMO a fresh, rejuvinated lineup is what McLaren needs. 

 

I agree that perhaps McLaren needs a re-set. But not just with drivers, with a clean haul in designing, strategic plannings, marketing...

 

However, the idea that Kvyat an Bianchi would have had just as many points as Button driving the same car... sorry, but if you believe that you are living in another reality than I am. Kvyat is awesome, but not yet at the level of Button. He could be, which makes him an amazing prospect. Bianchi, well... he could be the next Massa. Very fast, perhaps even fast enough to be a champ, but without a good engineer-strategist guiding him he is not going to shine.

[Jejking]

http://www.sportingl..._medium=twitter

 

Biggest income for the team yet. Surely the expectations are high now, it's all about what they will do with their money.

[sopa]

I think Ron Dennis still thinks that Mclaren are a top team. It's pretty insulting how he's behaving towards Button. It's reminiscent of how he played hardball with Hamilton before he went to Mercedes. I think it was Silverstone where he said that Hamilton would have to take a pay cut. Button is a great driver and Mclaren would do well to have a solid driver with reliable feedback for when they get the new engine next year. The way Dennis is behaving they're going to have Magnussen as the lead driver next year. Can't see Alonso going to Mclaren unless he has proof that the Honda engine is a monster. Dennis needs to sort himself out and keep his mouth shut.

 

Dennis has more room playing hardball with Button than with Hamilton, because basically... Button has nowhere to go and he knows that if he wants to continue in F1 at least in a semi-competitive team his best bet is McLaren. I don't know maybe Williams could consider him over Massa, maybe not?

[Nemo1965]

Having said that, I'm wondering if Buttons rain setup actually helped him to warm up his tyres? Not sure whether this was a one-off again. Let's hope Dennis was right and Button has improved, now it's down to the team to get on top of the problems again.

 

I don't know if Button improved. He has shown in the last four years that in changing conditions, 7 out of 10 he gets a better result than experted because he a. very seldom crashes into people. b. Does not get involved in startcrashes, even when he starts midfield. c. has massive in-laps which he times perfectly, d. can drive in the race just as fast as Alonso and Hamilton.

 

Having said that: there were 'lucky' circumstances. Lewis 6th place did not help him, because Lewis was just too fast. But the faltering of Massa and Bottas and Alonso, those WERE helpfull.

 

I am curious how Button will fare next races, without rain. I don't think he gets the max out of the car in qualifying sometimes, but in races I only rate Alonso higher. I think that if Dennis is realistic (or does not know something we don't know), he also knows the McLaren of 2014 is not a pole-position car. That means points will have to be won by excellent driving and excellent strategic decisions by both drivers and team. Better have a Button in the hand, then, Ron!

[MetallurgicalHedonist]

I don't know if Button improved. He has shown in the last four years that in changing conditions, 7 out of 10 he gets a better result than experted because he a. very seldom crashes into people. b. Does not get involved in startcrashes, even when he starts midfield. c. has massive in-laps which he times perfectly, d. can drive in the race just as fast as Alonso and Hamilton.

Having said that: there were 'lucky' circumstances. Lewis 6th place did not help him, because Lewis was just too fast. But the faltering of Massa and Bottas and Alonso, those WERE helpfull.

I am curious how Button will fare next races, without rain. I don't think he gets the max out of the car in qualifying sometimes, but in races I only rate Alonso higher. I think that if Dennis is realistic (or does not know something we don't know), he also knows the McLaren of 2014 is not a pole-position car. That means points will have to be won by excellent driving and excellent strategic decisions by both drivers and team. Better have a Button in the hand, then, Ron!

It was kinda 8:4 and 7:7 and 7:4 in 2010, 2011 and 2012 between them when both finished the respective races.

I don't know how - apart from Alonso - Hamilton cannot be considered better in races overall than Button as well.

[ForeverF1]

Please, please do not start back up Button vs Hamilton.

Remember this? The Button vs Hamilton stops.

[Dolph]

Nico Hulkenberg's stats in Formula One:

Races 66 (65 starts)
Championships 0
Wins 0
Podiums 0

Just sayin'.

 

Nico Hulkenberg's stats in Formula One:

 

mediocre Force India: 29 starts

mediocre at best Williams: 19 starts

mediocre Sauber: 18 starts

 

Podiums at said cars in those seasons by teammates: 1

Poles by Hulk: 1

Teammates beaten in points: 3 out of 4 (beaten in rookie season by the most experienced guy EVER)

[chumma]

2 bad seasons doesn't make McLaren not a top team.

[pingu666]

so where are they getting more money than ever from, with there rather barren car?

[PAGATRON]

So, is there any proof of life with Whitmarsh?

[Flyhigh]

I am baffled by some of the comments here. If Hulkenberg was this huge talent, why haven't any of the big teams snatched him?. Do you guys have access to more information than team principals and paddock personnel?

Yes, Principals in the paddock that made the very sharp decision to bring Kimi to Ferrari and not for cheap nevertheless. Stop, I used to belive that also, but is not always the case and specially not with Ferrari.  

[Slartibartfast]

Sorry, was just answering the question, and specifically the "whaaaaaaa?" statement of incredulity...

That was incredulity? I thought it was the sound of a dummy being spat out!

[pongkai]

There is a big difference between telling someone to improve, and laying the blame on someone.

Uh, to the person on the receiving end, not really.

[HP]

Isn't part of the issue with Button, that he is 'Whitmarsh heritage'?

 

Thinking Ron Dennis is deluded, is not the way I'd go about meeting him. Also the rather nonchalant way Button is responding, won't win him any favor with Ron Dennis. Like it or not, Ron is the boss at McLaren.

[teejay]

Dennis would be deluded if he did think Button was A grade.

[slideways]

so where are they getting more money than ever from, with there rather barren car?

Dirty oil money from McLaren's owners (Bahraini royal family) mixed with some clean from the road car division which turns a nice profit.

[HoldenRT]

People can point fingers anywhere they want, wherever it's convenient.. but what's clear is that regardless of who is at fault, McLaren are not where they should be.  Give them a Renault or Ferrari engine and they'd be even further back.

[Dalin80]

Dennis lost Hamilton for good back in 2012 when McLarens poor reliability cost him the world championship.

[Force Ten]

Nico Hulkenberg's stats in Formula One:

 

mediocre Force India: 29 starts

mediocre at best Williams: 19 starts

mediocre Sauber: 18 starts

 

Podiums at said cars in those seasons by teammates: 1

Poles by Hulk: 1

Teammates beaten in points: 3 out of 4 (beaten in rookie season by the most experienced guy EVER)

So it WAS possible to get a podium in those cars? That mediocre Force India looked like a possible contender for a race win in Canada and has been the fourth-fifth best car regularly the last two seasons, able to mix it with everyone but the best.

 

Nobody cares all that much. At least nobody up top really cares. Hulk hasn't even looked like threating to score a podium pretty much ever except for Brazil 2012 and he blew that one rather spectacularly. Even this year it has been Perez of the two that has looked like maybe he might score a podium soon. It all may well turn out different, but so far basically the only claim to fame for Hulkenberg has been that on several occasions he has been able to hold off Alonso in a Ferrari in many many laps. That makes him very visible, albeit visible doesn't automatically equal great. Greatness has to be earned, the man is not a rookie anymore and the big boys need to know that he can actually do stuff, not only show promise.

 

And I still fail to understand how - despite his apparently spectacular results - he would be a better prospect for McLaren than the driver he was suggested to replace. You didn't address it.

[Lights]

Boullier again downplays Dennis' comments http://www.planet-f1...Dennis-comments  

 

"First off all, it is something of a non-story if I may say this," the Frenchman told ESPNF1.

 

"In terms of Jenson - and even Kevin - I am very happy with the performance of our drivers this year."

 

[Anderis]

2 bad seasons doesn't make McLaren not a top team.

How many bad seasons will make McLaren not a top team?

 

One bad season may be a coincidence, but two bad seasons show some trends. McLaren is in kinda simillar point to Williams in 2007. One race finished on the podium during 1,5 years. I don't recall pepople saying Williams was a top team in 2007 despite the times of being regular race-winning contender were not that far ago.

 

McLaren better hope Honda relationship is up to expectations. If they continue their trend from recent years, it will get harder and harder to convince ponential sponsors and talent that they can bounce back quickly and it will become a vicious circle.

[pacificquay]

You seem to miss the point they've made fundamental changes to the management and in particular the aero teams, which should bear plenty of fruit in the coming seasons.

[jjcale]

Dirty oil money from McLaren's owners (Bahraini royal family) mixed with some clean from the road car division which turns a nice profit.

 

Does the road car division make money??

 

I thought it didnt...

[10e10]

Does the road car division make money??

 

I thought it didnt...

Apparently this year it did: http://www.theguardi...fit-p1-supercar

[mclarensmps]

Uh, to the person on the receiving end, not really.

 

So that's none of us, right? 

 

Dirty oil money from McLaren's owners (Bahraini royal family) mixed with some clean from the road car division which turns a nice profit.

 

Oh the irony... 

[SophieB]

I think we've gotten off track here. A few posts removed because they were arguing about how good the current drivers are and/or 2009. Don't get lost in the arguing about the finances of the road division either, eh. The topic is Ron Dennis's words and how reasonable they are. Or not!

[HP]

People can point fingers anywhere they want, wherever it's convenient.. but what's clear is that regardless of who is at fault, McLaren are not where they should be.  Give them a Renault or Ferrari engine and they'd be even further back.

I'm not 100% convinced about that. Right now McLaren gets the least help from Mercedes, because of engine switch to Honda. How much that holds McLaren back is anyone's guess though. I'm sure however that Ron Dennis has a better idea of it and I expect that once McLaren switch we will hear more about how much they think it slowed them down.

Edited by HP, 11 July 2014 - 15:18.

[DanGB]

In addition to Ron Dennis's comments last week, I heard it mentioned by Ted Kravitz on Sky that the "paddock rumour" is Ron has told Jenson to look for another drive - not necessarily because he's definitely out of McLaren, but because McLaren won't confirm their drivers until very late in the season, by which time it may be too late to find another seat if they don't re-sign him.

[Knot]

RD is really good at quite a few things.

 

Managing drivers isn't one of them.

[RuleyRamundo]

JB needs to leave this midfield corporate crap hole.

 

Hopefully JB gets an another drive in F1 if not an LMP 1 seat in WEC with his buddy Grit. 

[Lazy]

He's said he doesn't want to do WEC but he would like to do this:

[pingu666]

hes wanted todo dakar in the past

 

the reason to eject button is 2) a he doesnt always seem that motivated, b) might lead team up the wrong setup direction

 

hes still the driver id have on a drying track with slicks, hes the best at that

[Force Ten]

 

the reason to eject button is 2) a he doesnt always seem that motivated, b) might lead team up the wrong setup direction

So that post didn't seem to be having any correlation to the known facts whatsoever and might have been a total bollocks instead.

[SophieB]

Again with the squabbling about JB. Enough.