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1950/60's F1 Careers that "Petered Out "


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#1 AlecHawkins

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 12:30

It is interesting to reflect on some  F1 careers that originally shone brightly, but then gradually disappeared over time

 

I do not refer to Tony Brooks - who was clearly in the elite Moss class, but more to the likes of those below.

 

There were of course, people whose career's were marred by either, WW2 or bad crashes:

 

Farina, Villoressi Taruffi  etc,  or

 

Gonzalez, Bristow, Allison, Taylor , Arundel ,etc  

 

And, there were those who stayed too long - Trintingant , Bonnier, G Hill, et al

 

But consider the following:

 

Innes Ireland - Goodwood sensation, Easter 1960 . US GP 1961 - then, essentially, nothing

 

Masten Gregory -3rd Monaco 1957 , Cooper Works driver 1959 -  then, essentially nothing

 

Phil Hill - World Champion 1961 - then, essentially nothing

 

Ghincarlo Baghetti  - Syracuse and French GP's 1961 - then, essentially nothing 

 

 I am sure there are others..

 

Alec

 

 



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#2 kayemod

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 13:38

I'm sure we've covered all this before, but back in the 50s & 60s, the financial rewards weren't all that great, so money alone wouldn't have been a reason to continue. The dangers to life & limb were very considerable, so I'm sure that several of the drivers you mentioned just gave up, decided that the game wasn't worth the candle. To take just one example, when Phil Hill no longer had a competitive car, an intelligent man like him would have known that the dangers in plodding around in some makeweight weren't much less than when he was winning, so why bother?



#3 Barry Boor

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 13:43

To say that these drivers achieved 'essentially nothing' is a rather over-simplified statement, I feel.

 

I could list the successes that most of these drivers had after the dates listed, but I won't, save to say that Gregory won Le Mans in 1965 - a lot of better drivers than Masten never achieved that; while Ireland won F.1 races during the 1.5 litre formula.

 

I think you must consider the cars that these people drove in their later years before condemning them to such a group.

 

As far as Baghetti goes, anyone who was around in those days will tell you that dear old Giancarlo was no more than an average driver who was fortunate enough to be sitting in a Sharknose Ferrari in 1961.



#4 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 14:02

Added to which, Phil Hill was neither in the first flush of youth nor really (I think) that enamoured of single-seaters. Not to mention the 1962 Ferrari 158 being a bit of a dog by the middle of the year and the ATS debacle ...

 

Three Le Mans wins and three Sebrings tend to suggest that he was far more comfortable in a car with two seats. And with the greatest respect, he really won his title by default: going into the race just about all the smart money was probably on von Trips.

 

Baghetti was a pure flash in the pan, but for most of the early 60s you really needed to be in either a Lotus, a BRM or a Brabham. There can only be so many decent drives. Both Masten and Innes were good. But they weren't that good - even if Chunky hadn't fired Innes at the end of 1961 I suspect Jimmy would have destroyed him in 1962.



#5 D28

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 14:33

I think you are belittling the results for Masten Gregory. He had 2 podiums in 1959 for Cooper, including a 2nd at Portugal.

He almost certainly would have won had he maintained his seat in 1960, but clearly economics dictated only 2 cars for the works team.

With a wealth of driving talent, Gregory was simply odd man out and was released by John Cooper at Sebring. At the time he certainly had the pace of Bruce McLaren, but not the engineering and set up skills. The Cooper team of Brabham and McLaren has never been equaled for driver engineering knowhow.

The 1961 formula was one not best suited for Gregory's driving style, as he relished ample power.

He continued to shine in sportscars, winning at Mosport a  couple of times in a Lotus for example, at the Nurburgring and  Le Mans 1965.

The Kansas City Flash was a formidable competitor.


Edited by D28, 04 July 2014 - 16:21.


#6 Bloggsworth

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 21:14

I think you are belittling the results for Masten Gregory. He had 2 podiums in 1959 for Cooper, including a 2nd at Portugal.

He almost certainly would have won had he maintained his seat in 1960, but clearly economics dictated only 2 cars for the works team.

With a wealth of driving talent, Gregory was simply odd man out and was released by John Cooper at Sebring. At the time he certainly had the pace of Bruce McLaren, but not the engineering and set up skills. The Cooper team of Brabham and McLaren has never been equaled for driver engineering knowhow.

The 1961 formula was one not best suited for Gregory's driving style, as he relished ample power.

He continued to shine in sportscars, winning at Mosport a  couple of times in a Lotus for example, at the Nurburgring and  Le Mans 1965.

The Kansas City Flash was a formidable competitor.

 

And probably still holds the world record for the standing long-jump...



#7 nicanary

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 14:58

And probably still holds the world record for the standing long-jump...

I believe technically it was a "flying" long jump, with motive assistance.

 

(And, to be pedantic, I don't think Chris Bristow should be included in those whose careers were marred by "bad crashes". His was as bad as they come.)



#8 seccotine

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 15:39

Dick Attwood?

Jackie Oliver?

 

Very different : Jean-Pierre Jarier.



#9 hittheapex

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 16:18

Honourable mentions to Chris Irwin and Mike Parkes as drivers whose careers and very promising potential were abruptly curtailed by accidents.

 

Olivier Gendebien? Had a decent run in 1960 with Cooper for 5 of the last 6 races, on the podium twice and then reverted back to sporadic appearances.

 

Would it be cheeky to nominate Fagioli? Prominent in the 1930s of course, competed for the championship in 1950, scored a win in his only and final race of 1951 and retired.

 

Jean Behra didn't have a very happy time of it from 1957-1959 when he retired from F1. This after 1956, his strongest season with 5 podiums from 7 races in the Maserati.

 

Louis Rosier scored two podiums in 1950 and never reached the podium again until his death in 1956.

 

All written as an amateur student of the sport rather than someone who was actually there...come to think of it my father wasn't around to see most of the names mentioned above! :lol:



#10 JtP2

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 18:10

I think too much is being put on P Hill's giving up F1. He was asked at the time if he had retired from F1 and he replied "no, F1 has retired from me". He was after all the first driver to win a race with a car fitted with a wing after the end of his F1 career. Maybe if his 64 Cooper had been a bit better prepared his F1 career might have been a bit longer.



#11 AlecHawkins

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 23:09

Yes, I knew there would be others, but my knowledge is rather limited, hence my posting seeking the wisdom of people on this forum.

 

My posting related to people's F1 careers - indeed, any success later in other categories to me, only  serves to increase the "mystery" of why their F1 careers faded - and  there was, of course, no criticism of individual implied in my question.

 

I mentioned WW2 and bad crashes as career destroyers and I perhaps should have added "No 2 to Clark at Lotus" as another significant contributor to  "fading away" , but my quest for more knowledge really related to those situations where I was unaware of any obvious reason for F1 decline. 

 

Phil Hill enjoyed no F1 success after 1961 but he showed very convincingly in Tasmania in 1965 where he took on and ran wheel to wheel with Clark, Brabham, and McLaren  G Hill  in "last year's"  2.5 Tasman Cooper, he "still had the goods"  in no uncertain terms.

 

Behra has been mentioned - he was perhaps unfortunate to  have had three supreme Number One drivers "imposed" on him, Moss 1956, Fangio 1957 and Brooks 1959  but really, it has to be said in 1958 at BRM where there was no such imposition, he was only marginally, if any, better than Harry Schell.

 

Flockhart is perhaps another case somewhat similar to Gendebein - very good in sport cars, always waiting in the wings in a F1 team, did quite well when given one-off F1 drives but never was really given the chance to demonstrate whether he could "make it" in F1.   

 

I am sure there are others from later era's and I  would be interested to hear about them.

 

AH



#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 13:46

With regard to Hill...

Surely his position was affected by the fact that John Cooper became disenchanted with him after the destruction of his car at Zeltweg?

The best seats in F1 were tied up, a Cooper drive was not all that bad at the time (Cooper were to win again in the coming year) and to lose that drive really do add up to 'F1 giving up on him' rather than the other way around.

There are, also, other factors that added up to his Longford drive. Things that, I believe, inspired him that day. His previous performances in the Tasman Cup races were almost negligible.

It could also be that, with McLaren no longer to compete in the series after that time, Hill's rev limit was opened up a bit. His performance certainly indicates that, but that wouldn't explain him passing Jim Clark over the Long Bridge.

#13 D28

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 16:52

With regard to Hill...

Surely his position was affected by the fact that John Cooper became disenchanted with him after the destruction of his car at Zeltweg?

The best seats in F1 were tied up, a Cooper drive was not all that bad at the time (Cooper were to win again in the coming year) and to lose that drive really do add up to 'F1 giving up on him' rather than the other way around.
 

The incidents around John Cooper effectively sacking Hill after the Austrian GP are discussed by Eoin Young in McLaren Memories.

It was actually 2 cars Hill wrote off and John Cooper blamed him for both accidents. Bruce Mclaren did not see it that way and put it down to a simple clash of personalities Obviously McLaren thought enough of his abilities to hire him for his Tasman Team. Hill's replacement for the Italian GP was Tony Maggs who didn't qualify the car. Ironically McLaren finished 2nd for Cooper, so Hill who had 2 wins at Monza could have done well if allowed. Hill was back in the car for the US and Mexican races and that was it for his F1 career.



#14 Doug Nye

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 19:19

Hmmm - just study Phil's pace in the Porsche, Cobras, Ford GTs and Chaparrals that he drove at the 'stub end' of his International career.  Never forget that in the period under scrutiny top-line road racing drivers' performancesd were not confined to Formula 1...

 

DCN



#15 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:57

I think it is unquestionably true that Phil Hill's Grand Prix career petered out. After he left Ferrari he never had a Formula 1 car that remotely matched his ability. This is certainly true of his 1964 Cooper.

In truth, there were very few Grand Prix careers! excepting those ended by death or injury! that did not end in this way. A driver would reach a point where the cars he was offered became less competitive, less frequent and eventually we would realise that he wasn't racing Grand Prix cars any more. How many exceptions were there? Jack Brabham I suppose, but he was an exception to most rules.

#16 uechtel

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 09:21

Didn´t Fangio, Hawthorn, Stewart, Hulme, Jones, Lauda, Rosberg, Prost all decide to step out when they were still in competitive cars.

G. Hill, Surtees, Fittipaldi tried to build up their own teams, so at least the last two of them would have probably have the offer of a competitive team instead. Brabham was the exception that he (besides McLaren) was the only one to succeed with his enterprise.

 

Also for some others the "petering out" started when they were still regareded as top drivers and received offers from teams that were regarded to be a good choicel, but then turned into disappointment in retrospective, like P. Hill, Hunt, Ickx, Andretti etc.



#17 kayemod

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 09:30

The incidents around John Cooper effectively sacking Hill after the Austrian GP are discussed by Eoin Young in McLaren Memories.

It was actually 2 cars Hill wrote off and John Cooper blamed him for both accidents.

 

John Cooper was never very sympathetic when drivers crashed his cars, remember Brian Redman at Spa in 68? JC was insisting the crash had been down to driver error, even when there was photographic evidence of a high speed wishbone breakage.



#18 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 13:37

Didn´t Fangio, Hawthorn, Stewart, Hulme, Jones, Lauda, Rosberg, Prost all decide to step out when they were still in competitive cars.
G. Hill, Surtees, Fittipaldi tried to build up their own teams, so at least the last two of them would have probably have the offer of a competitive team instead. Brabham was the exception that he (besides McLaren) was the only one to succeed with his enterprise.

Also for some others the "petering out" started when they were still regareded as top drivers and received offers from teams that were regarded to be a good choicel, but then turned into disappointment in retrospective, like P. Hill, Hunt, Ickx, Andretti etc.

I was thinking of drivers of the 50s and 60s as in the thread title. Many things changed in the 70s. I agree that Fangio and Hawthorn were exceptions.

It is certainly true that a bad choice of teams was often the catalyst for a decline in a driver's fortunes.

Edited by Roger Clark, 23 July 2014 - 13:42.


#19 D28

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 14:42

Didn´t Fangio, Hawthorn, Stewart, Hulme, Jones, Lauda, Rosberg, Prost all decide to step out when they were still in competitive cars.

G. Hill, Surtees, Fittipaldi tried to build up their own teams, so at least the last two of them would have probably have the offer of a competitive team instead. Brabham was the exception that he (besides McLaren) was the only one to succeed with his enterprise.

 

 

 I would include Dan Gurney in the successful driver/builder category. His win at Spa with the Eagle-Weslake showed that he was on the right track to be competitive. The goal of AAR to build racing cars for series on both sides of the Atlantic was perhaps too ambitious for their resources. Understandably Gurney chose to concentrate on the American Eagles, and in this he meant with much success,

If nothing else his 1967 Eagle-Weslake was one of the most attractive F1 cars ever to grace a paddock.



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#20 uechtel

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:44

Yes, Gurney of course. I just limited to the world champions in order not having to go through all the data... ;-)



#21 hittheapex

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 11:44

John Cooper was never very sympathetic when drivers crashed his cars, remember Brian Redman at Spa in 68? JC was insisting the crash had been down to driver error, even when there was photographic evidence of a high speed wishbone breakage.

I can't say I remember as I am blessed with ever fading youth, but in an interview with Peter Windsor's Flying Lap, Brian said that John Cooper came along to see Brian in hospital after the crash and just said "ah you'll be alright." Seems as if he didn't even apologise properly, though Brian didn't say that.


Edited by hittheapex, 25 July 2014 - 11:50.