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Alonso says Ferrari need faster decisions


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#1 SophieB

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 16:26

 It has come to Fernando Alonso's notice that today could have gone better for Ferrari on the strategy side:
 

"We know there are two Williams and two Ferraris out of Q1, so there's definitely something wrong compared to the other teams because when both cars are out in a session like this it's because you were in the wrong moment with the wrong tyre," said Alonso.
"That's something we need to look at. It's true that it has happened some other times, and we were saved many times by luck.
"We need to do better next time. I think the bigger teams have longer procedures than smaller teams, so we need to speed up some of the communications and some of the things that we do."

 
Source: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/114826
 
I was going to paste it to the car thread but have a feeling this might detract from the news of all the technological advances that the F14-T thread should be about. So this is where you get to have your say about whether Alonso is right, and if so, how Ferrari might fix it. Or indeed whether Alonso might be wrong. Are they actually already on the right track and Matticacci just needs more time before being panicked into making more big changes?

 

I prefer it when opening posts include the author's own opinions. Nail their colours to a mast! But I don't know the answer here. To me, Ferrari give off similar problems to McLaren signs that *something* is really, really badly wrong at the heart but there's not enough info to tell the source or even if that's definitely right. So I guess I think Alonso is probably right but I'm not giving up on the new TP just yet either. What do you think?

 



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#2 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 16:50

First thing is some f1 teams have to check their decision making process and have to learn from errors in the past...  if you make the same errors again, it is called stupidity!



#3 Jejking

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 16:54

Look at the Williams situation, they completely misread the conditions as well. But they aren't firing anybody just yet, and have a different view on teamwork. Ferrari is a completely different and political animal, and shouldn't make mistakes like this. No miracle Alonso is pissed, this is a deserved wakeup call.



#4 Hanzo

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 17:02

We have people in other thread complaining that both drivers were "too happy" to his liking  with what happened today. Now here I read that Alonso is pissed... 

I am not sure if this deserves a thread, I think we all agree that today was a mistake and things need to improve.



#5 JHSingo

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 17:05

...and a faster car, I'd wager.



#6 Jejking

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 17:16

We have people in other thread complaining that both drivers were "too happy" to his liking  with what happened today. Now here I read that Alonso is pissed... 

I am not sure if this deserves a thread, I think we all agree that today was a mistake and things need to improve.

yes, but where is the breaking point?



#7 ollebompa

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 17:34

First thing is some f1 teams have to check their decision making process and have to learn from errors in the past...  if you make the same errors again, it is called stupidity!

Insanity even.



#8 ardbeg

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 17:42

I have a feeling there is a confidence problem. The strategists dare not to say "Do This!". It might also be the opposite - someone with plenty of confidence making bad decisions. Today was comedy. Why did the not put both drivers on track immediately? In conditions like this, when the track changes all the time, you can not have the cars parked in the pits. The grip comes, the grip goes. You must be on track when the grip is there, not in the pits. It was difficult circumstances, yes, and that is when you need to make decisions that is a decent compromise. They only needed to beat the hopeless.



#9 punknhedd

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 17:45

Smarter decisions!  That both teams had both drivers in same situation is pretty inexcusable.  Why not hedge an admittedly tough call by sending one guy out.  Just nuts.


Edited by punknhedd, 05 July 2014 - 17:45.


#10 ardbeg

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 17:45

...and to add to the "faster decision process" theory - there was no need for fast decisions today. The rain did not fall from a clear blue sky. They had plenty of time to sort out their strategy long before the session started.



#11 Coral

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 17:50

At the risk of stating the obvious, Ferrari need a faster car as well as faster decisions. I can't believe how far this team has fallen...they have two great drivers who are quickly becoming irrelevant. It's embarrassing. :down:



#12 punknhedd

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 17:55

At the risk of stating the obvious, Ferrari need a faster car as well as faster decisions. I can't believe how far this team has fallen...they have two great drivers who are quickly becoming irrelevant. It's embarrassing. :down:

 

Given their position in the sport and resources, they have generally been a disappointment since their horrible strategy call to cover Webber in 2010 finale.  Alonso's driving has been flattering them for 4+ years.



#13 ardbeg

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 18:00

Given their position in the sport and resources, they have generally been a disappointment since their horrible strategy call to cover Webber in 2010 finale.  Alonso's driving has been flattering them for 4+ years.

I think it started when they sent out Kimi on full wets in the dry in... was it 2008?

But yes, the 2010 finale was unbelievable. It was like they did not want to win.



#14 artista

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 18:07

I think it started when they sent out Kimi on full wets in the dry in... was it 2008?

But yes, the 2010 finale was unbelievable. It was like they did not want to win.

Malaysia 2009, the famous the ice-cream day, if I remember correctly.



#15 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 18:11

Just add it to the list of things they need to improve!

#16 RuleyRamundo

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 19:06

Alonso need to make the real decision. Leave Ferrari or you are a certain 2-time.



#17 F1matt

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 19:06

When was the last time a Ferrari took advantage of changing conditions or a safety car that benefited their driver? They are a long way from the Brawn/Schumacher days!

 

I have sympathy for Ferrari on this one, more so than Williams, the UK weather is almost unique as it can have all four seasons in an hour never mind a day and on a windy old airfield for a team based in Italy with a Spaniard and a Finn at the wheel getting to grips must be a nightmare. Add to the fact they have a car that looks like a dog when the rain came and they are on a hiding to nothing.

The Mclaren comparison is a good one, the traditional big two teams of the sport now look like dinosaurs since the unlimited testing days came to an end compared to the Red Bull team that has dominated the sport in the last few years, who look like a really big F3 team.



#18 Fontainebleau

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 19:10

When was the last time a Ferrari took advantage of changing conditions or a safety car that benefited their driver? They are a long way from the Brawn/Schumacher days!

 

I have sympathy for Ferrari on this one, more so than Williams, the UK weather is almost unique as it can have all four seasons in an hour never mind a day and on a windy old airfield for a team based in Italy with a Spaniard and a Finn at the wheel getting to grips must be a nightmare. Add to the fact they have a car that looks like a dog when the rain came and they are on a hiding to nothing.

The Mclaren comparison is a good one, the traditional big two teams of the sport now look like dinosaurs since the unlimited testing days came to an end compared to the Red Bull team that has dominated the sport in the last few years, who look like a really big F3 team.

Well, that Spaniard is from Asturias and your description of the UK weather fits the one in his home region pretty nicely  ;)



#19 Ikebana

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 19:29

Well, that Spaniard is from Asturias and your description of the UK weather fits the one in his home region pretty nicely  ;)

 

Don't bother, they only know Spain for the Costa del Sol and Costa Dorada, or anyother "Costa del", specially during summer. :p

 

About what Alonso said in regards to Ferrari, I love the guy but what he said is so obvious that it's a bit funny (IMO) he went and said that and the media quoted it.


Edited by Ikebana, 05 July 2014 - 19:29.


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#20 Cyanide

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 19:35

Alonso was in the garage for so long after the first run on inters. What were his mechanics and engineer doing? Having a little barbecue while everyone was out improving massively on dry tyres?

 

Ferrari's strategy wall needs a complete overhaul. Get rid of useless mongrels like Pat Fry and bring in some knowledgeable folk before the entire team's reputation goes well down the pooper. It's laughable how a squad with this kind of lifespan makes these brain-fart decisions. 



#21 redreni

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 20:44

I think there's nothing wrong with careful decision-making processes that take inputs from all the right people. Very often it's more important to consider all factors and to make the right decision than to get to the decision quickly. But that's not always the case, it depends on the situation. So there has to be somebody coordinating who can recognise when there isn't enough time available to follow the usual procedure, and simply make the decision himself based on his own situational awareness, and by looking at the sky and sticking his upturned palm out from under the awning. A Ross Brawn figure, in other words. I'm not sure Ferrari has that.

 

When a quick decision is needed, the problem F1 teams have is that they gather too much information, and they can end up confusing themselves if they try to take it all into account and make a decision within a couple of minutes. Ross was brilliant at understanding that, and knowing intuitively what information was most likely to be key to the decision at hand, and not being distracted by peripheral information..


Edited by redreni, 05 July 2014 - 20:45.


#22 AlexS

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 22:06

This is pure and simple stupidity.

A prudent strategy would put them in Q2 without problems. It also seems that there is only one person dictating strategy and not each garage can choose. That is another thing they need to change. 



#23 redreni

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 22:16

This is pure and simple stupidity.
A prudent strategy would put them in Q2 without problems. It also seems that there is only one person dictating strategy and not each garage can choose. That is another thing they need to change.


How do you know? Maybe they both had the same info, both use the same decision-making procedure, and that's why they get to the same decision. I'd be astonished if the final say isn't with the race engineer for each car.

I reckon the more likely problem is a fear of sticking your neck out and making a call. Remember Abu Dhabi 2010.

#24 HP

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 23:08

Since when is Alonso the spokesman for Ferrari? How did Ferrari reach their conclusions?

 

 

As a contrast, if not for Rosbergs input, Mercedes nearly would not have run the last lap that gave Rosberg the pole position. http://www.autosport...t.php/id/114835 . Not the quickest decision making process either it seems, but the drivers have their say. It seems to me Rosberg is hungry to do everything to succeed, while understandably Alonso is going through the motions as there is no chance he'll win anything this year.

 

Interestingly, when Alonso is involved in making a great decision that gives him and Ferrari a good result, we are being told how he helped, when there is a fail, then it's Ferrari that failed. It seems to me, when Alonso is involved in making good decisions he had his share of say, if things go wrong, he had nothing to say. I do see a pattern there. Apparently he should run the team by himself, and then everything is going right.

 

Personally I don't think it's helpful when Alonso puts himself above the team. Also considering that on his timed lap, he spun. Would he have scrapped through the first qualifying period without that mistake? If there is house keeping needed at Ferrari, then everybody please start at their own door.

 

Edited: the editor cut out part of the post with the link


Edited by HP, 05 July 2014 - 23:17.


#25 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 01:25

 It has come to Fernando Alonso's notice that today could have gone better for Ferrari on the strategy side:
 

 
Source: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/114826
 
I was going to paste it to the car thread but have a feeling this might detract from the news of all the technological advances that the F14-T thread should be about.

 

(...)

 

Yeah well there is no danger of much discussion in this regard  ;)


 



#26 Logiso

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 01:40

Since when is Alonso the spokesman for Ferrari? How did Ferrari reach their conclusions?

 

 

As a contrast, if not for Rosbergs input, Mercedes nearly would not have run the last lap that gave Rosberg the pole position. http://www.autosport...t.php/id/114835 . Not the quickest decision making process either it seems, but the drivers have their say. It seems to me Rosberg is hungry to do everything to succeed, while understandably Alonso is going through the motions as there is no chance he'll win anything this year.

 

Interestingly, when Alonso is involved in making a great decision that gives him and Ferrari a good result, we are being told how he helped, when there is a fail, then it's Ferrari that failed. It seems to me, when Alonso is involved in making good decisions he had his share of say, if things go wrong, he had nothing to say. I do see a pattern there. Apparently he should run the team by himself, and then everything is going right.

 

Personally I don't think it's helpful when Alonso puts himself above the team. Also considering that on his timed lap, he spun. Would he have scrapped through the first qualifying period without that mistake? If there is house keeping needed at Ferrari, then everybody please start at their own door.

 

Edited: the editor cut out part of the post with the link

 

Well, sometimes the driver can take the initiative, sometimes the decision needs to come from someone else and needs the team to make the decision for him. Alonso's job is to drive the car, not to look at the timing screens. I guess it depends what the reason was that they waited in the pits rather than went on the track. I guess they wanted to save the tyres as much as possible and do only 1 lap, in which case it's fair to blame the team because it's their job to allow for the forecast etc not the driver. If both Ferrari drivers were unsure to whether the slicks would be faster and that caused the delay then you're right that the drivers should take some of the blame. I agree completely that you shouldn't publicly criticize the team if your objective is to make them improve, the best place to do that is behind closed doors. However I think it was just an honest assessment of what happened in his opinion, overall his statements were quite reflective in the way he implied it could have worked out their way, but unfortunately it didnt. It isn't his style to criticize strategic decisions, he didn't even in Abu Dhabi 2010 for example.

 

And also to be fair, his criticism of the team in the speed of decision making etc is something Mattiacci has already said is an area the team needs to improve, so it isn't exactly controversial or the first time it's been said.


Edited by Logiso, 06 July 2014 - 01:43.


#27 CoolBreeze

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:39

They just need Ross Brawn back. 



#28 Watkins74

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:42

How long did it take for Fernando to decide this?   ;)



#29 Eff One 2002

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:47

Faster decisions? Yeah, probably but most of all they just need the car to be FASTER, period so that Alonso can actually mount a decent championship challenge.



#30 RosannaG

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 03:26

They just need Ross Brawn back. 

 

And Jean Todt, and Rory Byrne, and Paolo Martinelli, and Chris Dyer, and Michael Schumacher, etc, etc. etc.....  :smoking:

 

And Luca Cordero di Montezemolo out and as far away from Maranello as possible...  :wave:

 

And do not forget The Scuderia spent 21 years without winning a Driver's Championship not that long ago... It looks like they are going back to those times again!  :o



#31 kosmos

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 03:51

Knowing Ferrari, I will not be surprised if they had 10 guys talking for 10 minutes to decide if they have to go out sooner or later, then they call Maranello, and after that, another 10 minutes of talk to pick the right tyre. Montezemolo and Mattiacci already said many times that the want to make the decision taking process more fast, Fernando is hardly saying anything new.


Edited by kosmos, 06 July 2014 - 03:52.


#32 pokerkid

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 05:22

ferrari have had reactive strategy for years now, and it cost them the 2010 championship. Seems nothing has changed. Gambling in q1 for better track conditions is stupid, you just ensure you get through. You wait until the end in Q3. Seems the team is mediorce in every way other than Alonso.



#33 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 07:38

They need a faster car and better decisions. 

 

Although a better car and faster decisions would actually work too. 

 

Hmmm 



#34 9thGear

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 08:07

Ferrari probably want the driver not to spin on their hot lap, but they're not saying that out loud since it's bad for your team morale to point fingers and blame parts of your team in the media. 



#35 dreamer

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 08:18

Unfortunately, Ferrari needs much more than fast decisions.



#36 kosmos

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 08:19

Ferrari probably want the driver not to spin on their hot lap, but they're not saying that out loud since it's bad for your team morale to point fingers and blame parts of your team in the media. 

 

If the driver is using tyres for dry conditions in a wet track, spins and mistakes are more than normal, and Alonso was not the only one, but I guess common sense and hate for Alonso don't go hand to hand



#37 redreni

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 09:14

Well, sometimes the driver can take the initiative, sometimes the decision needs to come from someone else and needs the team to make the decision for him. Alonso's job is to drive the car, not to look at the timing screens. I guess it depends what the reason was that they waited in the pits rather than went on the track. I guess they wanted to save the tyres as much as possible and do only 1 lap, in which case it's fair to blame the team because it's their job to allow for the forecast etc not the driver. If both Ferrari drivers were unsure to whether the slicks would be faster and that caused the delay then you're right that the drivers should take some of the blame. I agree completely that you shouldn't publicly criticize the team if your objective is to make them improve, the best place to do that is behind closed doors. However I think it was just an honest assessment of what happened in his opinion, overall his statements were quite reflective in the way he implied it could have worked out their way, but unfortunately it didnt. It isn't his style to criticize strategic decisions, he didn't even in Abu Dhabi 2010 for example.

 

And also to be fair, his criticism of the team in the speed of decision making etc is something Mattiacci has already said is an area the team needs to improve, so it isn't exactly controversial or the first time it's been said.

 

Right. And we should remember that had the rain not intensified exactly when it did, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I agree with Mark Webber's analysis on the BBC after Q1 - the little teams set their slick times first, because they're normally at the back anyway so they can afford to gamble and be the first to make the switch, and then it rained at just the right time for them, just as they were about to get smashed back to the rear of the grid by the likes of Williams and Ferrari. The extra rain that fell was not forecast. And the reasons for being in the garage were fairly clear - they came back in after their run on inters, like everybody else they probably felt that the track would be ready for slicks before the end but they'd have been concerned about tyre warm-up and the amount of damp patches still on the track. So when there is still plenty of time left in the session, you can see the temptation to wait and see what sort of sector times the likes of Gutierrez are setting. Because had the first people to go out on slicks started going slower or falling off the road, it would have indicated that a second run on inters was the way to go, or maybe no second run at all to save tyres, and you can't react to that if you have already sent your cars out on slicks, particularly if they then end up in the fence.

 

They were not in the same position as Williams, where they waited too long to do their first run (which was intended to be their only run) and then didn't have time to a run on  slicks. They waited in the garage, but I doubt it was because they were reluctant to burn a set of slicks so much as that they were not confident that slicks were the right call, and they were afraid of the worst case scenario if they made the call without waiting for more data that would verify the call i.e. the sector times of the slick-shod cars. If the drivers had been adamant that they should go out on slicks, maybe they wouldn't have waited. Waiting for the extra data carried the risk that there might be more rain, and that's what caught them out, but we shouldn't let the fact that the rain came affect our judgement of whether the risk was assessed properly on the basis of the information they had at the time. If they took that possibility into account and decided it was still better to wait a couple of minutes, whilst that decision plainly turned out to be wrong, it doesn't have to be a faulty decision-making process. It could just be a case of the smaller teams rolling the dice and getting lucky, and Ferrari getting unlucky. On the other hand if the decision wasn't made because there was too much discussion of the risks of going out, and no assessment of the risk they were already running by being in the garage rather than on the track, then maybe Alonso is right.

 

I must say, though, as I was watching the session I was pretty sure the best times would come on slicks at the end. Normally if the track has gone from inter to slick conditions during the session,  the laptimes come down and down until the end of the session, so another risk of starting your run on slicks too early is that you may take the edge off their performance before the end. You can't be on the track with low fuel and tyres in their optimum condition all the time - you have to judge when to go out.

 

If there's a problem with the decision-making at all, I don't think it's arrogance or complacency, I think it's more likely lack of confidence.