69 replies to this topic

[Petroltorque]

I had pointed out in the F14T posts that Marmoroni was not the man to produce a competitive engine. Bear in mind that Ferrari have no record of class leading turbo technology and you see the problem. The response from the Ferrari fanatics that could not look at someone's past record to define future performance. I still can't get my head around that. The real irony is that it's the ICE which to use Lauda's words is ****. I'm not sure Mattiaci has completely solved the issues. An article in Motorsport Magazine by Mark Hughes and Georgia Piolo that Marmoroni received a directive to compromise the engine on the basis of efficient chassis aero. Who ever made that call has got to go. My money is on Fry. The F14T looks like a car conceived by a race engineer rather than a design engineer like Allison.

[Massa]

The only time when you don't have to compromise the engine for aero it's when they do this. It was clear that it would be an engine formula and they compromised the engine for aero, while Montezemolo was saying " at Ferrari we are the master for build a fast engine blah blah blah " . Like you said, whoever made this call should be fired and i my money is on Fry too but it's just a guess.

Edited by Massa, 31 July 2014 - 16:35.

[AlexS]

Turrini says that Marmorini is a too nice chap, compromise kind guy -another mini Domenicali- that accepted lots of constraints to his engine.

 

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The fact is that F14T was not conceptually designed for the current rules but for the past rules.  

 

Redbull spooked Ferrari so much that Domenicali & Co.  went after Aero not even thinking of strategic changes in Regulation.

 

They didn't understood at all - or were blind - that new regulation Formula 1 is more of  an engine formula than an aero formula, so Ferrari is fighting in current regulations with a car strategically designed for last years ones.

 

Instead of understanding that engine is the supreme factor with current regulation, they invested in aero as if the regulations didn't changed at all !

 

In the end is worse, the Engine is inferior,the aero failed and the car has a difficult setup.

 

The other question is : Does Marco Mattiacci understand that F14T was designed for past rules when the aero was dominant and that the execution was dismal?

 

That Ferrari problem starts with a strategic giant blunder done by the Domenicali & top managment(Tombazis, Fry, Marmorini as far as we know) not realising the change from Aero Formula to Engine Formula. Followed by poor execution.

 

 

That is essential to not have strategic bad decisions in the future -which by definition are the worst failures-  .

 

A Leader of an F1 team first of all needs to understand what  F1 will be.  

While F1 changes its emphasis with every regulation change, the Leader must act accordingly adapting his team to this new F1.

Edited by AlexS, 31 July 2014 - 17:38.

[discover23]

I don't they didn't understand it. How could they not.. Where they under a rock all of 2013 when all the talk was about the importance of the new engines.
They simply developed one that is underpowered compared to mercedes and renault. This was already hinted during the winter.

[AlexS]

I don't they didn't understand it. How could they not.. Where they under a rock all of 2013 when all the talk was about the importance of the new engines.
They simply developed one that is underpowered compared to mercedes and renault. This was already hinted during the winter.

 

Well the compromises they did to the engine means the Domenicali management didn't understand that. 

There is no other way around it.

 

 

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This also happened when the regulations changed to an aero formula. Ferrari was caught once again not understanding what kind of F1 they were in.

Edited by AlexS, 31 July 2014 - 17:46.

[jstrains]

Wasn't our engine to be a surprise for 2014? No photos long before the start of the season, revolutionary and light...

[f1RacingForever]

Wasn't our engine to be a surprise for 2014? No photos long before the start of the season, revolutionary and light...

The PU is actually cleverly designed just underdeveloped. In hindsight we should have expected this as Ferrari have the least hybrid experience between the 3 teams.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Had to go. He and his team have had an absolute shocker. Comparative to the competition, of course.

[AlexS]

The PU is actually cleverly designed just underdeveloped.

 

No. Turbo is too small for example. The split turbo also is not adopted - if there are no better solutions -

Edited by AlexS, 31 July 2014 - 22:04.

[f1RacingForever]

No. Turbo is too small for example. The split turbo also is not adopted - if there are no better solutions -

This is what I mean. The design itself has packaging advantages and has been praised by scarbs. They just need to develop and improve it for next year.

[AlexS]

If the split turbo is essential for performance then that is not valid. Turbo size and split turbo are design decisions.

[SCUDmissile]

I don't know if this is the right decision. The Ferrari engine flopped big time. Just got to hope this decision helps Ferrari become more competitive soon.

 

I just wish Marmorini the best.

[Seanspeed]

I had pointed out in the F14T posts that Marmoroni was not the man to produce a competitive engine. Bear in mind that Ferrari have no record of class leading turbo technology and you see the problem.

Neither do Mercedes.

But they got it right and there is definitely somebody in the Ferrari chain in charge of this who got it wrong. The team will know who that it is and its a bit ridiculous for us to sit here from a completely ignorant standpoint and say they've singled out the wrong guy, as if we know any better.

The only real question is - is the person who will replace him going to do a better job? People often think that firing people automatically makes things better without taking into consideration that the important part is bringing in a superior alternative, which isn't easy.

Edited by Seanspeed, 31 July 2014 - 23:03.

[TheDoctor]

Had to go. He and his team have had an absolute shocker. Comparative to the competition, of course.

 

I am not defending him but it is clear that aero took priority in the design of the F14T and compromises were made on the engine front to gain an aero edge. 

The aero edge is non existent. Shouldn't the aero team cop some blame also?

 

The whole team needs to improve. Engine is not the only problem but is a big one.

[f1RacingForever]

If the split turbo is essential for performance then that is not valid. Turbo size and split turbo are design decisions.

Each engine has it's own advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage of the Mercedes is their split turbo's but it's doesn't have the packaging of Ferrari's PU which utilizes a water to air intercooler rather than an air to air intercooler which requires smaller radiators which is better for aero. One small thing can stop something being fantastic and makes it rather normal or underperforming. A good idea is a good idea and if it gets executed better then it will be of benefit.

[Petroltorque]

The split turbo concept is a red herring. Yes it has an advantage that is related to engine cooling. James Allen is reporting that the Mercedes PU is hitting 800bhp. From my understanding of thermodynamics, the present rules state that the energy you can recover from the MGU-HEAT is unlimited so having a bigger turbo is a big advantage. Marmorini's record as an engine builder is uninspiring. Look at his record at Toyota where his engines were gutless.

[Petroltorque]

As an adenda, there's probably a clue in the decision of Honda to use the same Turbo manufacturer as MHPE.

[Timstr11]

Each engine has it's own advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage of the Mercedes is their split turbo's but it's doesn't have the packaging of Ferrari's PU which utilizes a water to air intercooler rather than an air to air intercooler

The Mercedes w05 has water to air coolers packaged in the fuel tank area. No other team has done that. Widely reported.

[f1RacingForever]

The Mercedes w05 has water to air coolers packaged in the fuel tank area. No other team has done that. Widely reported.

"The Mercedes system eats up some of the fuel tank area because of the split turbo at the front of the engine takes up space. Therefore they need a longer fuel tank overall which pushes the engine back in the chassis which is bad for aerodynamics and bad for weight distribution." Scarbs

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=rE_F6XGMHQU

[Jejking]

Shouldn't be too big a problem, since weight distribution in F1 is fixed. A (in my book) not so handy solution in which Ross Brawn had a good saying iirc.