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Track limit madness [merged]


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Poll: Track limit madness (765 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you think the track limit handling is a problem?

  1. Yes (622 votes [81.31%])

    Percentage of vote: 81.31%

  2. No (143 votes [18.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.69%

If it is a problem, how could it be solved?

  1. Electronic sensors and an exact amount of allowed incidents (225 votes [29.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.41%

  2. As long as they do not cut, there should be no repercussions (155 votes [20.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.26%

  3. They way they handled it now is ok (85 votes [11.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  4. Other (300 votes [39.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.22%

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#5901 pdac

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Posted 16 November 2023 - 22:10

The track owners will have zero issue in the tracks actually being race tracks, all other motorsports will have zero issues - You are making a non-issue/non-problem into an issue/problem. There is zero magic in fixing track limits issues, simple make race tracks back into race tracks.

 

I feel confident the two of us will not be likely to change our views on this.

 

Track owners are there to make money. That means they have to attract people who will pay to use their track. F1 and other series will pay. But if there is contention, they will have to manage the disappointment and so it will come down to how much is on the line and who is more likely to accept disappointment. There's also the thought that doing nothing costs nothing, but making changes does cost.

 

But this is all irrelevant as long as F1 are not asking the track owners to make changes.


Edited by pdac, 16 November 2023 - 22:11.


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#5902 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 16 November 2023 - 22:11

Track owners are there to make money. That means they have to attract people who will pay to use their track. F1 and other series will pay. But if there is contention, they will have to manage the disappointment and so it will come down to how much is on the line and who is more likely to accept disappointment. There's also the thought that doing nothing costs nothing, but making changes does cost.

 

I continue to think you are wrong, we are getting nowhere.



#5903 pdac

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Posted 16 November 2023 - 22:20

I continue to think you are wrong, we are getting nowhere.

 

I'm not 100% sure either way, but my feelings are lead by the fact that it hasn't happened yet and there does not appear to be any massive ground movement in that direction - I have to ask myself why?



#5904 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 16 November 2023 - 22:27

I'm not 100% sure either way, but my feelings are lead by the fact that it hasn't happened yet and there does not appear to be any massive ground movement in that direction - I have to ask myself why?

 

Because the 'F1' have decided they know better, because they buy the same arguments you post despite there being 100 years of proof they are wrong.

 

But I have been wrong before.



#5905 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 16 November 2023 - 22:32

Track hosting fees are not cheap. When a track pays 20-30 million to host a race, how on earth can they (and Liberty) not find a solution for the few thousand euros necessary to modify a few corner exits?

Besides, doesn't all the equipment and personnel needed to monitor track limits also cost money?

#5906 pdac

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Posted 17 November 2023 - 13:29

Because the 'F1' have decided they know better, because they buy the same arguments you post despite there being 100 years of proof they are wrong.

 

But I have been wrong before.

 

So you agree then - that this will not be the solution.



#5907 pdac

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Posted 17 November 2023 - 13:30

Track hosting fees are not cheap. When a track pays 20-30 million to host a race, how on earth can they (and Liberty) not find a solution for the few thousand euros necessary to modify a few corner exits?

Besides, doesn't all the equipment and personnel needed to monitor track limits also cost money?

 

Because they don't want to. That's why until they do change the circuits, we need to have a harsh penalty system.



#5908 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 17 November 2023 - 15:26

So you agree then - that this will not be the solution.

 

No, and I think we have played long enough.



#5909 ARTGP

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Posted 17 November 2023 - 21:48

Track hosting fees are not cheap. When a track pays 20-30 million to host a race, how on earth can they (and Liberty) not find a solution for the few thousand euros necessary to modify a few corner exits?

Besides, doesn't all the equipment and personnel needed to monitor track limits also cost money?

Some tracks aren’t even making money in the short term (like COTA). So any dollar spent reconfiguring the track is money they don’t have to begin with.

Edited by ARTGP, 17 November 2023 - 21:49.


#5910 Grippy

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Posted 01 December 2023 - 16:04

Came across this article about Brands Hatch and one line stood out;

 

"The following year, in order to stop reckless driving, the Half-Litre Club devised a "no spin" rule for the meeting held that September. It led to automatic disqualification of anyone who spun or left the track. One of the first victims of the rule was Bernie Ecclestone!" :rotfl:that was in 1951.

 

https://500race.org/brands-hatch/



#5911 Grippy

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Posted 10 January 2024 - 20:36

Monza being resurfaced, new lower but low-grip kerbs, extra gravel.

 

https://www.grandpri...-off-areas.html

 

"........run-off areas for the first two chicanes of the Monza circuit will go back to featuring gravel......"



#5912 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 January 2024 - 21:20

The first chicane has always had gravel.



#5913 Stephane

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Posted 10 January 2024 - 21:44

Yeah, but they will also put some on the left side of it.



#5914 ANF

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Posted 10 January 2024 - 21:55

Monza being resurfaced, new lower but low-grip kerbs, extra gravel.
 
https://www.grandpri...-off-areas.html
 
"........run-off areas for the first two chicanes of the Monza circuit will go back to featuring gravel......"

So no repeat of this unsporting nonsense.



#5915 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 January 2024 - 13:06

The first chicane has always had gravel.

 

The escape road stays with the marker boards, but the bit closer to T2 will be gravel on the inside again. 

 

Also the second chicane will have the gravel and escape road removed as it was faster than taking the regular track. Perhaps Abu Dhabi should take notice of this at their chicanes.


Edited by SenorSjon, 11 January 2024 - 13:07.


#5916 Beri

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Posted 11 January 2024 - 14:01

The first chicane has always had gravel.

 

I dont think it had gravel since the overhaul in 2000 that saw it change from a double left right chicane to the single right left it is now. Also since 2007 the Della Roggia (2nd chicane) isnt lined with gravel anymore.



#5917 ANF

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Posted 14 January 2024 - 20:37

The silly tarmac shortcut in the First Chicane at Monza was created between the 2009 and 2010 Grands Prix.
In 2009 that part was still a grass run-off area:

 

...or maybe it was concrete actually. It wasn't tarmac anyway.

 

Edit: It was maybe 80 percent grass and 20 percent concrete.
2021 vs 2007 GIF:

monzafirstchicane20212007.gif


Edited by ANF, 14 January 2024 - 20:54.


#5918 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 January 2024 - 20:38

I thought that was a less severe chicane for bike racing.



#5919 ANF

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Posted 14 January 2024 - 20:55

I thought that was a less severe chicane for bike racing.

Yeah, I think you're right. Sounds familiar.

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#5920 Goron3

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Posted 14 January 2024 - 21:55

Abu Dhabi chicane and Singapore turns 1-3 need to be looked at next. Maybe the chicanes at Spa too.

#5921 ANF

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Posted 14 January 2024 - 22:22

I watched the Formula Regional Middle East races at Abu Dhabi this weekend and the number of deliberate track limit violations in the chicane and at the exit of T9 was absolutely ridiculous.



#5922 Ruusperi

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Posted 15 January 2024 - 10:02

Yeah, I think you're right. Sounds familiar.

I think this big WSBK pileup there was actually the reason for that change

 

EDIT:

Yep, https://www.roadraci...-team-previews/


Edited by Ruusperi, 15 January 2024 - 10:03.


#5923 Risil

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Posted 15 January 2024 - 10:03

I still remember Beanoid's furious RETIRE NOW posts directed at Makoto Tamada after that one...



#5924 RedRabbit

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Posted 15 January 2024 - 14:20

But they only have to have one molecule of car on the track to be "on the track".


I know this is an old comment, but this is maybe a big part of the problem.

If they switched it up a bit to a maximum of 2 wheels over the line at any time, rather than any part of one wheel IN the line.

It would be easy enough then to install a sensor underneath each brake duct to detect the white line, or a similar solution.

#5925 RedRabbit

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Posted 15 January 2024 - 14:25

Some tracks aren’t even making money in the short term (like COTA). So any dollar spent reconfiguring the track is money they don’t have to begin with.


This is definitely something else that needs looking into. The tracks have such limited means to recover the hosting fee, they don't have funds for the remainder of the year to make changes without big debt.

#5926 Frood

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 17:42

Absolute scenes coming out of Formula Winter Series at Valencia today (an off-season F4 series organised in Spain, with many of the teams and drivers from both the Spanish and Italian F4 championships; a lot of kids making their car racing débuts in the series). Policing of track limits appears to be... somewhat draconian. Pole position? Lap time deleted. Second place on the grid? Lap time deleted. Third place? Lap time deleted...

To cut a long story short, all thirty-eight drivers had their lap times deleted, so qualifying was nullified. They took the grid for their first race from practice instead. :lol:

I can't say I'm sympathetic, mind you - the other winter series this year (Formula Regional Middle East and F4 UAE) have been a joke at times, with run-off areas at both Abu Dhabi and Dubai being huge, and the drivers taking sometimes huge liberties with them. A lot of the time, a driver being overtaken has just send it across the runoff instead and kept their position.

#5927 AustinF1

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 18:22

Some tracks aren’t even making money in the short term (like COTA). So any dollar spent reconfiguring the track is money they don’t have to begin with.

This is definitely something else that needs looking into. The tracks have such limited means to recover the hosting fee, they don't have funds for the remainder of the year to make changes without big debt.

COTA makes money now. Plenty of it the last few years. They have money for repairs. They just won't spend it on meaningful, lasting repairs. They get about $35 Million annually from a State of Texas subsidy for every GP, on top of revenues from much bigger crowds the last few years. The subsidy covers their hosting fee and more. That's what makes the annual terrible condition of the track that much more of a travesty. The COTA boss won't fix the actual track itself. Good luck trying to get him to do anything about track limits.

 

ETA: Correction: I was just informed that COTA received about $40M for the 2023 USGP, and is the only GP since Kyalami 40+ years ago where the government subsidizes the race despite having no ownership stake in the land, the facility, or the race promotion company. Maybe if the State had a stake, some things would be managed better, but who knows.


Edited by AustinF1, 17 February 2024 - 21:28.