939 replies to this topic

[Prost1997T]

Thing is though i'm sure he looked like tht when he won in Houston lol

 

I guess he's just a stoic person then   

[prommer]

Seems to me someone should make a mock-up of this for ol' Carlos:

 

[Option1]

Surely the poster boy for a 'limited' range of emotions is Clint Eastwood.  Somehow I just don't see Carlos as Clint.

 

Neil

[brett_sequeira]

Carlos has levels of smirk, if you look back you can see that at the autograph palce his smirk is a bit less than in the others. maybe he has bad teeth or something.

[Ross Stonefeld]

After an F3 podium

 

 

Winning in World Series by Renault

 

Ecstatic ahead of his first Indycar test with Panther

 

 

 

Hello Ladies.

 

[Risil]

Amusing to see the insults being flung at Don Capps simply because he seems to think facts are important when looking at historical facts.  As usual in such circumstances, it says way more about those doing the insulting. 

 

Flung? I take the strongest of exceptions to that word!

 

And just to clear anything up I miss Don Capps in all his irascible and historically-accurate glory and hope he comes back one day. After said verbal pummelling I wrote him an apologetic and conciliatory email and he wrote a very kind and considerate reply.

Edited by Risil, 22 July 2014 - 20:24.

[brett_sequeira]

After an F3 podium

 

 

Winning in World Series by Renault

 

Ecstatic ahead of his first Indycar test with Panther

 

 

 

Hello Ladies.

 

will he be in F1

[Lemnpiper]

btw did you see me sitting in the Mclaren

 

 

New Icon pic?    

 

 

   Looks like someone had a fun time .     1st Indycar race?

 

    Now you need to do an oval Indy car race to see the sheer speed these cars reach.

[Option1]

Flung? I take the strongest of exceptions to that word!

 

And just to clear anything up I miss Don Capps in all his irascible and historically-accurate glory and hope he comes back one day. After said verbal pummelling I wrote him an apologetic and conciliatory email and he wrote a very kind and considerate reply.

Fair enough.  On that basis I also offer my apology.

 

Neil

[whitewaterMkII]

Amusing to see the insults being flung at Don Capps simply because he seems to think facts are important when looking at historical facts.  As usual in such circumstances, it says way more about those doing the insulting. 

Neil

I didn't see an insult, heck, if you've been here since it was AtlasF1, he's educated pretty much everyone at one point or another. Speaking of which, where the heck is Jim Thurman these days...another guy who makes this place interesting with his grasp of the history of racing.

[whitewaterMkII]

After an F3 podium

 

 

Winning in World Series by Renault

 

Ecstatic ahead of his first Indycar test with Panther

 

 

 

Hello Ladies.

 

 

Safest 10 dollar bet I ever made.

[Alfisti]

Briscoe is a very likable bloke, well he is when you approach him at a race track anyway. 

[brett_sequeira]

New Icon pic?    

 

 

   Looks like someone had a fun time .     1st Indycar race?

 

    Now you need to do an oval Indy car race to see the sheer speed these cars reach.

My first race ever in any series. I am not totally hooked, yes i do want to see either and F1 or an Indy race on a proper circuit now.

[Deluxx]

Meh. They need to do something about these 1st corners on these tracks.

 

Probably be hard because its a road course and they have to drive on the street etc.... But how many turn 1 crashes have we seen on streets in the past season? Idk. 

 

No real solution I suppose but to have the drivers not be maniacs. 

[Ross Stonefeld]

Were there turn 1 crashes(in Indycar) this weekend? Seemed like it was mostly Turn 3 or guys stacking it at the end of the kinked-straight at the end of the lap.

[Option1]

I think Ross is right.

 

To my (admittedly warped) mind, the bigger problem is that the track is lined with concrete barriers.  Without the runoff room, one guy touching the barrier can lead to the accordion effect such as was seen with Montoya/O'Lotion/and friends.

 

Besides the concrete barriers make every street course in every city look exactly the same on TV.  Also makes almost every corner look the same - I usually end up with no idea where the cars they're showing actually are on the track.  The only track I can think that looked somewhat different was Sufferer's Paradise when they could use the high shots to show the ocean.  Oh and maybe Long Beach around the fountain.  Otherwise - dirty, fugly, concrete jungle seems to be the over-whelming impression of every street course, and thereby the associated impression of the city hosting the race.  Of course, in TO's case, that's pretty accurate.
 

Neil

[Andrew Hope]

I think the rain made it more likely you'd wreck in turn 3 than turn 1, but that's always been the case at the Molson Indy.

[PayasYouRace]

The only street circuit that's given me lasting confusion about what part of the track I was looking at was Valencia.

 

Toronto T3 is definitely a bit of a trouble zone, but that's hard to help. It's a hairpin at the end of a long straight. More of a concern is the narrowing through T4, which seems to cause an equal amount of carnage.

[Deluxx]

I think Ross is right.

 

To my (admittedly warped) mind, the bigger problem is that the track is lined with concrete barriers.  Without the runoff room, one guy touching the barrier can lead to the accordion effect such as was seen with Montoya/O'Lotion/and friends.

 

Besides the concrete barriers make every street course in every city look exactly the same on TV.  Also makes almost every corner look the same - I usually end up with no idea where the cars they're showing actually are on the track.  The only track I can think that looked somewhat different was Sufferer's Paradise when they could use the high shots to show the ocean.  Oh and maybe Long Beach around the fountain.  Otherwise - dirty, fugly, concrete jungle seems to be the over-whelming impression of every street course, and thereby the associated impression of the city hosting the race.  Of course, in TO's case, that's pretty accurate.
 

Neil

 

Yeah, I suppose I'm with you. Not much else they can do though. I think maybe it's the advertising banners too... Repeating Logos on every corner definitely doesn't help give each turn identity. 

I know at least being downtown for the setup of the St Pete race, they have those barriers out from like Wednesday till Monday midday. It's the only way to block out traffic from going down those streets... Besides St Pete (along with others) roads are so narrow that even if they weren't there, it's not like there would be any extra room or anything... Mostly condos and bank skyscrapers, and they're right on the corner of the block, with only room for a sidewalk.

 

Were there turn 1 crashes(in Indycar) this weekend? Seemed like it was mostly Turn 3 or guys stacking it at the end of the kinked-straight at the end of the lap.

 

Lol the pace car spun out... and this: http://i.imgur.com/ZlrI3xS.png
Does that count?  Haha, Jk.

But I don't think any at turn one in T-ronto.. Just meant in general. Turn 3 was pretty bad last week though, you're right.

Edited by Deluxx, 23 July 2014 - 16:15.

[Radoye]

My first race ever in any series. I am not totally hooked, yes i do want to see either and F1 or an Indy race on a proper circuit now.

 

From a purely spectator's point of view -

 

Indy on an oval is fun, the sense of speed is amazing and you're still close to the action, and except in the case of the largest ones which are absolutely huge, there is still good access to everything and you can easily walk about the place and see stuff.

 

Modern road courses are a different beast, the stands are usually too far back from the track and the access to the paddock is very much isolated from the crowd (unless of course you buy yourself VIP treatment). The stands tend in most cases to be grouped in certain places around the track and accessing the remaining parts can be very hard if not impossible.

 

What you saw in Toronto is what makes street circuits so popular - small compact place where everything is almost within a touch, you can get real close to the track, you can get real close to the drivers, the place is so small there is no way to separate the crowd from the participants, you can get everywhere and see everything. Even if there are much better places for racing and on-track action, street courses like Toronto are arguably the best places to actually go to and experience the atmosphere first hand.

[Rinehart]

Have been watching quite a bit of Indycar this season.

I think the racing is great as is the atmosphere - it doesn't take itself too seriously unlike F1. 

But, my lord, the standard of driving is awful! Single seater touring cars! . The Russian seems like he crashes every lap and some of the quicker drivers such as Power (who clearly has natural ability) are just unbelievably error prone and lacking in judgement - they'd never make it to F1. The organisation isn't much better. Imagine what Bernie would do if someone spun the safety car!!! 

But it doesn't matter. F1 is what it is. Awesome, but totally up itself. This stuff is just good old motorsport. Hope it stays that way, its just great as it is. 

[Risil]

unbelievably error prone and lacking in judgement - they'd never make it to F1.

 

Heh

[Ross Stonefeld]

But, my lord, the standard of driving is awful! Single seater touring cars!

 

I think if Indycar and F1 switched schedules, the results would be about the same*. F1 would probably have less incidents because the field spreads out a lot more.

 

But in general an Indycar doesn't have the refined handling of an F1(which have frankly gone too far, for some time now), race on road courses that have more bumps than F1's street courses, don't have power steering, sometimes do mutiple races a weekend, etc.

 

 

*The natural terrain road courses are relatively drama free. And all the less entertaining

[Prost1997T]

I think if Indycar and F1 switched schedules, the results would be about the same*. F1 would probably have less incidents because the field spreads out a lot more.

 

But in general an Indycar doesn't have the refined handling of an F1(which have frankly gone too far, for some time now), race on road courses that have more bumps than F1's street courses, don't have power steering, sometimes do mutiple races a weekend, etc.

 

 

It's also worth noting that JPM was the first to crash when it started raining. You know, the same Juan Pablo Montoya that has won in every series he's competed in and gave Schumacher a hard time on several occasions in F1. There simply isn't the same margin for error there.

Edited by Prost1997T, 24 July 2014 - 13:03.

[Risil]

*The natural terrain road courses are relatively drama free. And all the less entertaining

 

Agreed although Barber's never had a bad race and I really enjoyed Mid-Ohio last year. If only because the big teams all assumed there'd be yellow flags and fuel saved like hell so they could make it -- with the expected safety car periods -- in two stops. And Kimball and Pagenaud went flat out and won it with three.

 

And we all know Road America would be brilliant. That's, like, a fundamental article of faith among Indycar fans.

Edited by Risil, 24 July 2014 - 15:12.

[Rinehart]

I think if Indycar and F1 switched schedules, the results would be about the same*. F1 would probably have less incidents because the field spreads out a lot more.

 

But in general an Indycar doesn't have the refined handling of an F1(which have frankly gone too far, for some time now), race on road courses that have more bumps than F1's street courses, don't have power steering, sometimes do mutiple races a weekend, etc.

 

 

*The natural terrain road courses are relatively drama free. And all the less entertaining

Yeah agree with that. A lot of the contact is because 20-odd are racing together after yet another yellow, between 2 lines of concrete walls. 

There are, still, a lot of "hopeful lunges" I think is the only way to describe them, plus odd things such as cars spinning and driving the wrong way up the track to get into the pitlane (fine Trulli did that in Singapore once) and cars crashing into already crashed cars a good 20 seconds later - its a bit mad to say the least! 

But don't get me wrong, its refreshingly about racing and a lot of the drivers are not short of talent.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Doh, fewer incidents.

[Prost1997T]

Yeah agree with that. A lot of the contact is because 20-odd are racing together after yet another yellow, between 2 lines of concrete walls. 

There are, still, a lot of "hopeful lunges" I think is the only way to describe them, plus odd things such as cars spinning and driving the wrong way up the track to get into the pitlane (fine Trulli did that in Singapore once) and cars crashing into already crashed cars a good 20 seconds later - its a bit mad to say the least! 

But don't get me wrong, its refreshingly about racing and a lot of the drivers are not short of talent.

 

I see you only watched Toronto #2 and assumed that applies to every race. If this wasn't clear enough already....it started raining and Montoya slid off on a slick patch of tarmac as he hadn't changed to wets yet. Hinchcliffe got sideways and would have made it through were it not for Montoya's wheel sticking out. Aleshin's still driving like it's Europe and the circuits have huge run-offs, but he's still a rookie (although you'd expect a WSR champion to have a little more nuance in his style). Newgarden waited for everyone to pass before he went for pit lane, so I can't really fault him for crossing the track the wrong way very briefly.

 

As for the incidents in general, Huertas (another WSR driver) caused much of the trouble, eg deciding he wasn't going to turn in at the end of a long straight, spinning himself in front of a pack of cars and forcing everyone to take evasive action. That would have caused a stack up in F1 if it were the first lap (Hamilton nearly did this in Canada by making contact with Rosberg). Again, like Aleshin, he overestimated what he could do given the conditions. Which is funny as he stayed out on wets while almost everyone else had changed back to slicks. The rest? A couple of rookies sliding off in changing conditions. Not really a big deal...

Edited by Prost1997T, 24 July 2014 - 14:34.

[brett_sequeira]

Have been watching quite a bit of Indycar this season.

I think the racing is great as is the atmosphere - it doesn't take itself too seriously unlike F1. 

But, my lord, the standard of driving is awful! Single seater touring cars! . The Russian seems like he crashes every lap and some of the quicker drivers such as Power (who clearly has natural ability) are just unbelievably error prone and lacking in judgement - they'd never make it to F1. The organisation isn't much better. Imagine what Bernie would do if someone spun the safety car!!! 

But it doesn't matter. F1 is what it is. Awesome, but totally up itself. This stuff is just good old motorsport. Hope it stays that way, its just great as it is. 

For me the ability to get so up close to the cars and drivers and team owners really made it for me. the racing is ok not great but the atmosphere is awesome. I will definitely do it again.

[Andrew Hope]

As has been pointed out a million times, just so we're all on the same page: last weekend was pretty par for the course for IndyCar on street circuits but the real road circuits and ovals usually aren't anything like the racing of the street courses. If you, like me, picture IndyCar's Race Control command center sorta like a monkey cage in a zoo (only with more masturbating), you're correct. But it's unfair to assume every race is a yellow flag festival when Barber, Mid Ohio, Sonoma etc. aren't like that. There was a stretch last year (or maybe even 2012, but it was after the chassis switch) where there were nearly 3 full races in a row without any cautions whatsoever.

[Jim Thurman]

And the ovals are what have really been yellow-free zones this year. 120-150+ laps.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Another race, another set of random penalties well after the fact.

 

Sato is out-of-spec after qualifying. Delete his fastest time? Send him to the back of the grid? No, wait until next Thursday and fine him a grand or two.

 

Wtf?

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Another race, another set of random penalties well after the fact.

 

Sato is out-of-spec after qualifying. Delete his fastest time? Send him to the back of the grid? No, wait until next Thursday and fine him a grand or two.

 

Wtf?

I think Indycar is flirting with losing credibility.  You can't essentially look the other way when technical infringements occur, or the whole field will start cheating just to keep up.

[Jim Thurman]

I think Indycar is flirting with losing credibility.  You can't essentially look the other way when technical infringements occur, or the whole field will start cheating just to keep up.

 

Well, I guess they are trying to pattern themselves after NASCAR

[Afterburner]

Finally saw race 2 today. All I can say is that I love Indycar. So much fun.

I'll try to get the Mid-Ohio thread up before the end of the weekend. I only have enough time in a year to put together one or two OPs with which I'm satisfied, and this weekend's a good time for one of them--I'll try not to overdo it too much.

[Rinehart]

I see you only watched Toronto #2 and assumed that applies to every race. 

 

Well... what followed from you was a pretty strong defence based on that incorrect assumption. 

I would say last weekend was par for the course.

Do I need to be clearer that I think Indycar racing is great? 

[whitewaterMkII]

I think Indycar is flirting with losing credibility.  You can't essentially look the other way when technical infringements occur, or the whole field will start cheating just to keep up.

I'm trying to remember when you ever said they did...

 

No doubt it was a bizarre weekend for them, and yes some cars have been out of spec this year. I didn't catch what it was with Sato, but the last one I remember it was somebodies car had a whopping 1/10th of a gallon capacity over spec that was found after the race. And on a car that had passed tech 3-4 times already that weekend. Frankly, everyone is always pissed at the tech guys, for one reason or another. I like the way Derrick has been running it though, he deemed the 1/10 of a gallon was no big deal, had no effect on the race, or gave an advantage and thus hit them with a minor fine. So what's the problem? I guarantee that if he finds something that gives someone an advantage, or finds something egregious, he will hit them hard. I think a car can be out of spec, without purposeful tampering, especially after a race. 

On the racing end of it, he had to make some calls this weekend that were tough to make, and I have not seen anyone here come up with an alternative to the calls he made that would have been any better. The ones that have caught my eye this year have all involved Power, or his car, particularly them working on it under the dubious claim that the race had not started and thus they were not under the red flag no touching the car rule . One of the things I think Derrick should look into, and I like about F-1, is that they have a board of stewards that are assigned on a per race basis, and generally include retired drivers on them, and are dealing with racing infractions in real time. That would benefit Derrick in two ways if he adopted that process. One, it would free his guys up to run the race itself, yellow flags and so forth, and not have to juggle on track infractions at the same time, and two, would absolve him from criticism from what the boards actions may or may not be while speeding up decisions for penalties to be issued *while* the race is underway within a few laps.

My two cents at any rate, your mileage may vary.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The Power thing was completely overblown, imo. I think the complaint was mainly pushed by Michael Andretti(who is not, and has never been a complainer that I've noticed...) and then they asked Walker who said everyone is allowed to work on their car. But I don't think they followed up with Andretti or any other team to ask if they were working on their cars.

 

 

RLL was fined $5000 after Luca Filippi's car was determined to be underweight after the opening race, a violation of rule 14.3.1.1 of the regulations.

The Italian, who was making the last of his currently scheduled appearances in the team's second car, was eliminated from the race due to early accident damage.

 

Fair enough, the car was DNF so you can't really DQ it.

 

Takuma Sato's team AJ Foyt Racing was fined $1000 after the Japanese driver's car was deemed to be in violation of rule 14.6.6.10 of the regulations, which relates to the underwing height.

The breach was detected after the weekend's only qualifying session, during which Sato put himself 15th on the grid.

 

I think the Huertas/fuel tank decision was fair. But Sato is like Wilson and Castroneves in previous Texas(oval) races where the winner had out of spec cars? I think HCN lost some team points. But what do they consider a punishable offense? How far underweight or fiddling with the aero do you need to be, before they actually take away a result or a grid position?

[whitewaterMkII]

I have no idea how low Sato's car was, if it was low in a Oval, that would be an advantage I'd say, in a street race not so much, in fact it probably it would be worse to have a low car in view of the curbs they were all banging off of. So in that case, as a Steward I would deem it 'not an advantage' and thus I think the fine is somewhat realistic. That being said, I believe there should be a minimum fine for any car out of spec of at least 10K, which would probably cut down on a lot of the ticky tack stuff very quickly, especially if it was called per infraction, as some of these guys have multiple things going out of spec at after race tech.

I'm not sure how they spec the cars after races, in either F1 or Indycar, but I would imagine drivers playing with weight jackers, brake bias' and so forth during the race could have some effect on ride height amongst other things. Do the drivers set everything back to neutral positions on the cool down laps? Do the tech guys inspect the cars at both minimums and maximums pre race? How much does picking up after race clag raise the car heights? Hmmmm...

[Prost1997T]

 

I would say last weekend was par for the course.

 

 

The facts say otherwise. Are you really trying to tell us Iowa, St Petersburg and Pocono were copies of Toronto? We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.