103 replies to this topic

[Kimble]

Some comments from Joe Saward's blog:

http://joesaward.wor...ting-the-scene/

Scuderia Ferrari

There has been no real contest this year between Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen. The latter does not like the car and so has generally been slower. Neither one is very impressed with the machinery and after five years at Ferrari Fernando Alonso is tipped to be looking for a job elsewhere. It is an important decision because he’s old enough now to not be in a position to make more mistakes in his career path if he wants to add to his two titles form 2005 and 2006. Logically he should win more but you have to have the right car. Staying at Ferrari is as risky as moving to McLaren, but sometimes a change is a good idea. If Ferrari is looking for a replacement Nico Hulkenberg is the obvious choice although Ferrari has its teeth into Jules Bianchi, so he might be in the running.

[Vinsin]

Some comments from Joe Saward's blog:
http://joesaward.wor...ting-the-scene/
Scuderia Ferrari
There has been no real contest this year between Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen. The latter does not like the car and so has generally been slower. Neither one is very impressed with the machinery and after five years at Ferrari Fernando Alonso is tipped to be looking for a job elsewhere. It is an important decision because he’s old enough now to not be in a position to make more mistakes in his career path if he wants to add to his two titles form 2005 and 2006. Logically he should win more but you have to have the right car. Staying at Ferrari is as risky as moving to McLaren, but sometimes a change is a good idea. If Ferrari is looking for a replacement Nico Hulkenberg is the obvious choice although Ferrari has its teeth into Jules Bianchi, so he might be in the running.

At this point, maybe since Hungary 2013, it's quite obvious that Ferrari wouldn't mind if Alonso left on his own.

They might even want that to happen after 5 Season together. This marriage has run it's course.

[garoidb]

At this point, maybe since Hungary 2013, it's quite obvious that Ferrari wouldn't mind if Alonso left on his own.

They might even want that to happen after 5 Season together. This marriage has run it's course.

 

Slight problem - where will the WCC points come from?

[Watkins74]

At this point, maybe since Hungary 2013, it's quite obvious that Ferrari wouldn't mind if Alonso left on his own.

They might even want that to happen after 5 Season together. This marriage has run it's course.

 

I can always count on you for a good laugh. Thank you.

[Vinsin]

Slight problem - where will the WCC points come from?

From the same place 1 WDC & 2 WCC came from!
Alonso isn't the only driver who has ever scored points for Ferrari.

Edited by Vinsin, 16 July 2014 - 21:08.

[NoSanityClause]

From the same place 1 WDC & 2 WCC came from!
Alonso isn't the only driver who has ever scored points for Ferrari.

You, sir, display masterly skills at question begging.

 

Kudos.

[garoidb]

From the same place 1 WDC & 2 WCC came from!
Alonso isn't the only driver who has ever scored points for Ferrari.

 

Kimi and Felipe  .

 

I do think that this is the reason that Kimi was brought in. There is only one slight problem. It turns out that Fernando scores a lot more points than either of these drivers.

[Vinsin]

I do think that this is the reason that Kimi was brought in. There is only one slight problem. It turns out that Fernando scores a lot more points than either of these drivers.

I doubt that.
It's not like Kimi hasn't scored massive points all his previous F1 seasons for the team.

Edited by Vinsin, 17 July 2014 - 14:24.

[Kimble]

Kimi was definitely brought in to cover base if FA decided to leave. On the surface it might look simple but Fernando's tone in the last year is more self-interested In 9 races Alonso has scored 1 podium. Ferrari only want to win so there's going to be no cheering 5th place finishes in Italy.

[garoidb]

I doubt that.
It's not like Kimi hasn't scored massive points.

 

It doesn't really matter what you doubt. There are some obvious realities.

[aditya-now]

I doubt that.
It's not like Kimi hasn't scored massive points.

 

You are right - all 19 of them!

[aditya-now]

Kimi was definitely brought in to cover base if FA decided to leave. On the surface it might look simple but Fernando's tone in the last year is more self-interested In 9 races Alonso has scored 1 podium. Ferrari only want to win so there's going to be no cheering 5th place finishes in Italy.

 

Indeed, they will have to cheer for 9th place finishes instead!

[as65p]

At this point, maybe since Hungary 2013, it's quite obvious that Ferrari wouldn't mind if Alonso left on his own.

They might even want that to happen after 5 Season together. This marriage has run it's course.

 

Yeah that would be cool for the likes of you I guess. With Alonso out of the way  you could rave about the allmighty performances of the iceman dragging that Ferrari into the lower half of the top ten. Sometimes.

 

Then again, even in that case you'd only fool yourself. 2014 with Alonso and Raikönnen in the same car won't go away, whatever happens in the future.

[kosmos]

At this point, maybe since Hungary 2013, it's quite obvious that Ferrari wouldn't mind if Alonso left on his own.

Yeah, that is why they want to extend his contract, you live in a bizarre alternative timeline.

[9thGear]

Yeah that would be cool for the likes of you I guess. With Alonso out of the way  you could rave about the allmighty performances of the iceman dragging that Ferrari into the lower half of the top ten. Sometimes.

 

Then again, even in that case you'd only fool yourself. 2014 with Alonso and Raikönnen in the same car won't go away, whatever happens in the future.

facepalm

[Cyanide]

Then again, even in that case you'd only fool yourself. first half of 2014 with Alonso and Raikönnen in the same car won't go away, whatever happens in the future second half.

 

Fixed. 

[Cesc]

I can't really imagine what Ferrari would look like without Alonso and with a similar driver to Kimi in performance instead, scoring 15-20 points. They would have by now something like...40 points in the WCC? Slightly ahead of Toro Rosso... Ferrari has had some success since the big regulation changes thanks to Alonso, nothing more. If he left, I don't know how can they cope with that in the shorter term. The car is crap and they are going backwards since 2010 (Alonso won 5 races that season!). This year Ferrari, out of 9 races, has 1 single podium...man, that's poor!

[aray]

From the same place 1 WDC & 2 WCC came from!
Alonso isn't the only driver who has ever scored points for Ferrari.

but he is the only driver who is bringing the points now...

Edited by aray, 17 July 2014 - 11:25.

[aray]

Yeah that would be cool for the likes of you I guess. With Alonso out of the way  you could rave about the allmighty performances of the iceman dragging that Ferrari into the lower half of the top ten. Sometimes.

 

Then again, even in that case you'd only fool yourself. 2014 with Alonso and Raikönnen in the same car won't go away, whatever happens in the future.

he expect Kimi will get some relief without Alonso..but actually without Alonso, Kimi's reputation will be in greater danger...beaten by Hulk or Bottas will seal the fact that his time is over..

[wj_gibson]

At this point, maybe since Hungary 2013, it's quite obvious that Ferrari wouldn't mind if Alonso left on his own.

They might even want that to happen after 5 Season together. This marriage has run it's course.

 

I think specifically de Montezemelo might countenance this. I think the rest of the Ferrari team would be absolutely mortified, quite frankly.

[Jon83]

Not really sure what Saward is on about.

 

The Mercedes seats are occupied and to many, it seems it could be a long time before they are caught. That being the case, not sure where Alonso would go. If it is just change for the sake of changing then sure, move on but I doubt his world championship chances would greatly increase.

 

All of that said, maybe somebody else will step up to the playe and challenge the mercs over the next couple of seasons.

[Kristian]

Without the Mercedes option, I think Alonso's only option at this stage of career is to stay put. The other options really don't work....

 

- Red Bull: Losing Newey, uncertainty with engines. 

- McLaren: Will take about 3 years to get up to championship speed with Honda and restructured design team I would say, but I could be wrong and thus this would be the most intelligent gamble. 

- Williams: Doesn't have the finances for a sustained title challenge. 

- Lotus: With Mercedes might improve, but no longer has the resources for a sustained title challenge. 

 

And no other team will be within a hope of winning anything. 

 

At Ferrari, they are clearly dysfunctional, but they do have the budget and resources, can possibly get some good people together, and if they do produce a winning car he will get a clean shot at the title as the team is built around him. I think if they give up on this year now nad put full resources into 2015, they surely can't make a bad car again. But it all depends on the engine really. 

 

As for Raikkonen, I wouldn't be surprised if he moved on this year and Bianchi was brought in. 

[Slackbladder]

Without the Mercedes option, I think Alonso's only option at this stage of career is to stay put. The other options really don't work....

 

- Red Bull: Losing Newey, uncertainty with engines. 

- McLaren: Will take about 3 years to get up to championship speed with Honda and restructured design team I would say, but I could be wrong and thus this would be the most intelligent gamble. 

- Williams: Doesn't have the finances for a sustained title challenge. 

- Lotus: With Mercedes might improve, but no longer has the resources for a sustained title challenge. 

 

And no other team will be within a hope of winning anything. 

 

At Ferrari, they are clearly dysfunctional, but they do have the budget and resources, can possibly get some good people together, and if they do produce a winning car he will get a clean shot at the title as the team is built around him. I think if they give up on this year now nad put full resources into 2015, they surely can't make a bad car again. But it all depends on the engine really. 

 

As for Raikkonen, I wouldn't be surprised if he moved on this year and Bianchi was brought in. 

 

Problem is for Alonso, there has been for the last 5 years, only one dominant team at any one point in time (and it hasn't been Ferrari!). For the last 4 years, it was Red Bull, to the extent that any driver would have wanted a seat there (indeed Lewis did when he fell out with McLaren). Now, it's Mercedes, but Lewis got ahead of the curve, but luck or by judgement, and played the longer game for his career.

 

Alonso doesn't have the time, and any move now for a chance 2 or 3 years down the line would be a gamble, it's as simple as that.

 

As for Kimi, well, he's clearly past his best.

[garoidb]

 

As for Kimi, well, he's clearly past his best.

 

When did this happen? He was strong last year. 

[Slackbladder]

When did this happen? He was strong last year. 

 

You're right, he was, he isn't this year. Maybe he was more motivated with Lotus.

[Gyno]

When did this happen? He was strong last year. 

 

 

Or maybe the car was superior last year and kimi made it look like 2nd/3rd best car.

Maybe Alonso would have won the last 2 titles had he been in that Lotus.

 

 

 

Mclaren might be the best option for FA.

They are probably working hard on next years car with Honda at the moment while Ferrari are headless chickens running around in circles.

[garoidb]

You're right, he was, he isn't this year. Maybe he was more motivated with Lotus.

 

Hoping for that pay cheque?

[garoidb]

Or maybe the car was superior last year and kimi made it look like 2nd/3rd best car.

Maybe Alonso would have won the last 2 titles had he been in that Lotus.

 

 

Alonso beats him, therefore he is past his best. It is a bit convenient, isn't it?

[Slackbladder]

Alonso beats him, therefore he is past his best. It is a bit convenient, isn't it?

 

It's not a matter of Alonso just beating him. The guy's had plenty of questionable weekends, especially that moment of stupidity at Silverstone. 

 

Time waits for no man, it's just my opinion, but Kimi doesn't seem a winner at the moment, much like Webber, there comes a point where you just lose your hunger.

[Thomas99]

From the same place 1 WDC & 2 WCC came from!
Alonso isn't the only driver who has ever scored points for Ferrari.

 

Hes the only driver this year. Even if Ferrari had 4 Kimi's they would have scored less than Fernando.

Edited by Thomas99, 17 July 2014 - 14:27.

[Buttoneer]

Without the Mercedes option, I think Alonso's only option at this stage of career is to stay put. The other options really don't work....

 

- Red Bull: Losing Newey, uncertainty with engines. 

- McLaren: Will take about 3 years to get up to championship speed with Honda and restructured design team I would say, but I could be wrong and thus this would be the most intelligent gamble. 

- Williams: Doesn't have the finances for a sustained title challenge. 

- Lotus: With Mercedes might improve, but no longer has the resources for a sustained title challenge. 

 

And no other team will be within a hope of winning anything. 

 

At Ferrari, they are clearly dysfunctional, but they do have the budget and resources, can possibly get some good people together, and if they do produce a winning car he will get a clean shot at the title as the team is built around him. I think if they give up on this year now nad put full resources into 2015, they surely can't make a bad car again. But it all depends on the engine really. 

 

As for Raikkonen, I wouldn't be surprised if he moved on this year and Bianchi was brought in. 

I'm a Williams fanboy so forgive me this dream, but if Alonso were prepared to go there and pair up with Pat Symonds again, I believe it would give the impetus the team needs to get back to the front properly.  It's no good waiting a few years for him to go there - they need a driver at the peak of his powers.  I believe he would have scored much higher than Massa has, and may even have had himself a win this year.  The team are doing well and need a driver who believes in himself and can pull the team with him.  They would have been braver with their strategic decisions and more open to taking risks generally.

 

The problem is that Williams has been so bad for so long, that it would need the most immense leap of faith and I couldn't really blame him for not doing it.

 

Kimi I think still has an opportunity to show that his performance this year is just warming up so I don't have any particualr wish or concern for him.

 

As for replacements, I'll never stop wishing for Hulkenberg to get a good seat so I would like it to be him.  I really don't know if anyone else on the grid would either deserve the seat or want it.  Ferarri hasn't been the most attractive option for a few years now.

[Slackbladder]

I'm a Williams fanboy so forgive me this dream, but if Alonso were prepared to go there and pair up with Pat Symonds again, I believe it would give the impetus the team needs to get back to the front properly.  It's no good waiting a few years for him to go there - they need a driver at the peak of his powers.  I believe he would have scored much higher than Massa has, and may even have had himself a win this year.  The team are doing well and need a driver who believes in himself and can pull the team with him.  They would have been braver with their strategic decisions and more open to taking risks generally.

 

The problem is that Williams has been so bad for so long, that it would need the most immense leap of faith and I couldn't really blame him for not doing it.

 

Kimi I think still has an opportunity to show that his performance this year is just warming up so I don't have any particualr wish or concern for him.

 

As for replacements, I'll never stop wishing for Hulkenberg to get a good seat so I would like it to be him.  I really don't know if anyone else on the grid would either deserve the seat or want it.  Ferarri hasn't been the most attractive option for a few years now.

 

You're right. Which is the point I made. It needs/needed Alonso to take a risk. It might be too late for him to do it now.

 

Lewis took a risk, no doubt about it with Merc, and it paid/is paying off. I'm not sure Alonso is brave enough, and if anything his reputation as one of the best drivers seems to be that the car should mould around him, rather than him mould around the car (if that makes sense).

[wj_gibson]

Perhaps the other problem is that Williams couldn't pay Alonso anything like the kind of salary he is accustomed to - and whilst he doesn't need the money, there is something about the perceived market value of drivers that is linked to their unwillingness to take significant pay cuts.

[garoidb]

You're right. Which is the point I made. It needs/needed Alonso to take a risk. It might be too late for him to do it now.

 

Lewis took a risk, no doubt about it with Merc, and it paid/is paying off. I'm not sure Alonso is brave enough, and if anything his reputation as one of the best drivers seems to be that the car should mould around him, rather than him mould around the car (if that makes sense).

 

Quite the opposite, I would have thought. 

[Logiso]

I'm a Williams fanboy so forgive me this dream, but if Alonso were prepared to go there and pair up with Pat Symonds again, I believe it would give the impetus the team needs to get back to the front properly.  It's no good waiting a few years for him to go there - they need a driver at the peak of his powers.  I believe he would have scored much higher than Massa has, and may even have had himself a win this year.  The team are doing well and need a driver who believes in himself and can pull the team with him.  They would have been braver with their strategic decisions and more open to taking risks generally.

 

The problem is that Williams has been so bad for so long, that it would need the most immense leap of faith and I couldn't really blame him for not doing it.

 

Kimi I think still has an opportunity to show that his performance this year is just warming up so I don't have any particualr wish or concern for him.

 

As for replacements, I'll never stop wishing for Hulkenberg to get a good seat so I would like it to be him.  I really don't know if anyone else on the grid would either deserve the seat or want it.  Ferarri hasn't been the most attractive option for a few years now.

 

You're right. But from Williams' perspective, it's better to do everything to keep Bottas and do that with him. He has a longer career ahead of him and will be more patient and tolerant. For Alonso, it makes more sense to wait at Ferrari for another year, and then chances are there will either be another top team that can fight Merc to force his way into, or it will stay the same as it is now and other drivers will be looking around as well. Right now, a change would just be for the sake of it. Other than Merc, and Red Bull(if getting a better Engine is possible), Ferrari is the best place to be.

[KnucklesAgain]

IMO it depends much on the Honda engine, which has not explicitly been brought up in this thread, if I didn't miss anything. They can test as much as they want, they won't make certain failures (for example, choose the turbo too small), and Alonso will want to see the data or even drive the thing before making a decision. And if he likes what they show him, I don't know, he might jump. All the "Ferrari family" talk aside, I am pretty sure that the chance of making his childhood dream a reality - and this time properly with a Honda engine (edit: and a V6T at at that) - would still have a big pull on him, maybe even more so now that it seemed shattered forever.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 17 July 2014 - 22:09.

[Owen]

I could see Alonso doing 1 more year at the Scuderia then moving to McLaren Honda - if it suits him. I think Kimi might be gone after this year, to be replaced by Bianch in 2015 maybe ? All guess work. But the driver market seems very puzzling right now.

[Buttoneer]

Perhaps the other problem is that Williams couldn't pay Alonso anything like the kind of salary he is accustomed to - and whilst he doesn't need the money, there is something about the perceived market value of drivers that is linked to their unwillingness to take significant pay cuts.

Depends if he wants that third championship, or money.  Like I said, it's a leap of faith too far, I agree, for Alonso but it would be fascinating to see the team properly gel around him.  I don't get the impression that Ferrari is currently doing any gelling with anyone this year.

[bourbon]

Or maybe the car was superior last year and kimi made it look like 2nd/3rd best car.

Maybe Alonso would have won the last 2 titles had he been in that Lotus.

 

Yeah, then again, Alonso didn't win the last three titles that were in his hands.  I think that adds proof to the notion that no driver is ever a "shoe in" for any bet. 

 

As for the future of the Ferrari drivers, there is probably not going to be much of one unless some championships come spilling out of the garages.  Alonso is a great driver - as great as Kimi, but their greatness is growing less important by the minute at Ferrari because what is needed for the Tifosi, for the Sponsors, for the millions of fans of the red car, is a championship to celebrate. 

[OvDrone]

I think that Alonso's last few career choices will make these next silly seasons a little more interesting.

 

I just want him to end up in WEC. And that seems rather likely. Be it Ferrari influenced or otherwise.

[Vinsin]

Or maybe the car was superior last year and kimi made it look like 2nd/3rd best car.
Maybe Alonso would have won the last 2 titles had he been in that Lotus.

Nice dream, considering Alonso failed to win titles with McLaren & Ferrari.
He hasn't won any title since 2006 & he'd win Titles with a Midfield Team that failed to pay their drivers & employees.

And to top it all, he was in Lotus (Renault) before his big money move to Ferrari to win titles 5 years ago. Alonso, always running away from title winning cars?

Edited by Vinsin, 18 July 2014 - 05:21.

[RedKloud]

At this point, maybe since Hungary 2013, it's quite obvious that Ferrari wouldn't mind if Alonso left on his own.

They might even want that to happen after 5 Season together. This marriage has run it's course.

 

Don't agree with this. It will be a huge loss for Ferrari. Having said that, I don't see him leaving, at least not next year.

Edited by RedKloud, 18 July 2014 - 04:25.

[HeadFirst]

Perhaps the other problem is that Williams couldn't pay Alonso anything like the kind of salary he is accustomed to - and whilst he doesn't need the money, there is something about the perceived market value of drivers that is linked to their unwillingness to take significant pay cuts.

 

But Williams wouldn't have to pay Alonso anything, Santander would. 

[KingTiger]

When did this happen? He was strong last year. 

 

He really wasn't all that. Lotus had a ridiculous advantage due to Pirelli using their car to test their tires. That is the only reason they were anywhere the last few seasons. 

[Mohican]

All this talk of Raikkonen being over the hill is slightly ridiculous. It is clear that the car, for whatever reason, does not suit him as well as it does Alonso. Or that Alonso is better able to adapt; one of the two.

Not the first time this has happened; nor the last. Vettel is a similar case in point. Like Kimi he is unlucky - AND being beaten by his team mate. Does that mean that he is also useless ? Grosjean looks rather less impressive than he did at Austin last year, doesn't he ?

Can we have more perspective and less invective ? Please.

[Gorma]

He really wasn't all that. Lotus had a ridiculous advantage due to Pirelli using their car to test their tires. That is the only reason they were anywhere the last few seasons. 

Lotus leased Renault's R30 (2010 car) to Pirelli. The car was run by Pirelli and there was no connection to the Lotus F1 team.

[Ncedi]

Nice dream, considering Alonso failed to win titles with McLaren & Ferrari.
He hasn't won any title since 2006 & he'd win Titles with a Midfield Team that failed to pay their drivers & employees.

And to top it all, he was in Lotus (Renault) before his big money move to Ferrari to win titles 5 years ago. Alonso, always running away from title winning cars?

 

Oh man, you're great at this troll game, let me join you.:

 

Kimi failed to win anything at McLaren, especially in 2005 despite having the most dominant car on the grid that year. I don't remember specifics but I think he had more failures than Montoya (perhaps he's a car breaker).

 

He then moved to Ferrari in 2007 where they would have lost the WCC if it weren't for McLaren's exclusion. Lucked into the championship after a bad weekend for Massa at Monza meant he became the lead driver (after trailing Massa), then the McLaren in fighting allowed him to sneak it in (with Massa handing him the win in Brazil).

 

For the next year and a half Kimi got his ass handed to him by Massa. 2008 the WCC was only really secured because it was Heikki driving the other McLaren next to Lewis and in 2009 he was already more than a race win behind Massa when the accident happened.

 

Then well...Kimi took a forced holiday. It should say something to you that McLaren werent willing to pay his salary for 2010 (not worth it?) Anyway he returned and then was looking good against the world beating Romain and then started to look average against Romain in 2013. He never looked like a serious title contender in either of the years there despite what was a very quick car.

 

Now, he's getting trashed at the hands of Alonso and seems to also have developed the car breaking tendecies again.

 

Just to make sure, do you see what I did there? It's easy to minimise everything to reflect how you want to see it. Easy to say Fernando has won nothing (it's a fact) but not a reflection of the true situation. There are factors out of their control which must be taken into account. It's funny how you want to paint it black and white, if I were to do that well then it's 9 - 0 in the races, 7 - 2 in qualifying and 87 - 19 points. Kimi should definitely retire and let some younster learn from a much stronger Alonso.

Edited by Ncedi, 18 July 2014 - 07:26.

[Vinsin]

Kimi loses when he should win, and he wins when he should have lost!?

Okay.

[Ncedi]

Kimi loses when he should win, and he wins when he should have lost!?

Okay.

 

I was afraid my point might sail over your head so I put the last paragraph in there for you...

 

Please feel free to read it carefully.

[Balnazzard]

You're right, he was, he isn't this year. Maybe he was more motivated with Lotus.

facepalm......seriously, why people always blame Kimi's motivation when he is struggling? Clearly it doesnt seem enough to some of you that no matter how many times the man himself has said that he would quit right away if he didnt feel motivated..you think that Kimi, out of all people, who already quit in F1 once, would talk garbage and just drive for the money?

 

Kimi's problems come entirely from his driving style that doesnt work well with the car they have right now..but apparently that's not clear enough for some of you and apparently many of you doubt that he would do any better even if he the team would be able to provide what he wants from the car...despite what happened in 2012 and 2013 with Lotus...

 

It always seems to be the same story in F1...you are only as good as the result of your last race(s).... just like Kimi said just this weekend to Italian media "people always turn their coats....whenever you are doing well, they praise you, when you are not, they bark at you"....this is why I truly hate the F1 community...or well in any sports in general.

 

Oh and one more thing....Kimi just said this weekend that he has contract for 2015, so he has no worries whatsoever. Ofcourse they could always buy Kimi out, but it would become incredibly expensive for them and Santander wouldnt do that for them this time.

Secondly he also said that Ferrari will be his last team, but once again didnt say anything about retiring after 2015, that he will end his career at Ferrari, but he doesnt know when it will be and that reporters just made their own conclusions. Again Kimi more than likely has 2+1 year contract (as first reported by SuomiF1 before anyone else reported about Kimi's Ferrari deal last year), with the 1 year option being entirely in Kimi's own hands. So Kimi might retire after 2015 if he doesnt feel happy with team or he might still continue in 2016 if things go in right direction.

Edited by Balnazzard, 18 July 2014 - 11:14.