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1982 F1 Cars - Front Wings?


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#151 PeterElleray

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:18

Henri - i think that the speedway front wings were the only effective way of rebalancing the car during the race - as you will know this happened very frequently, and the cars had mechanic adjustable wing incidence adjusters fitted to the nosebox.

 

This was linked to the wing crosstube. i think later (certainly by 88) the left and right wings were individually adjustable. they certainly were at Hemelgarn where i was. So removing the wings would not have been an option. My recollection is that they did not produce very much  downforce - something that would come as no great surprise when you look at them. They are very close in size to those fitted to the 126C2 actually - so this reply is almost back on topic!

 

There are other guys who post here (Nigel Beresford would be the one) who had far more experience at the speedway than i had, and they could give you more detail.

 

I think that the story about Tom and the rear wing is correct - infact somewhere i think i have seen a picture of the car without the wing.

 

I cant remember the specifics, and by 88 the tunnels were a lot smaller, but very often running a very small rear wing at the appropriate height would energize the tunnels - literally suck the air out of them - and the net effect was a more aero efficient package than removing it - exactly the same principle applied on the LeMans cars i was involved with.

 

Peter



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#152 Michael Ferner

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 17:01

From the top of my head, I recall A. J. Foyt running one of his Coyotes rear-wing-less in the mid-seventies, Ontario I think? And apart from Sneva, didn't the Galles team experiment without a rear wing in, I want to say 1984, drivers Geoff Brabham and Pancho Carter??

#153 Sisyphus

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 19:50

Getting back to the original thread topic, there is a nice photo of Pironi in the Ligier at Watkins Glen in 1980 with no nose wing on the Glen website that B Squared posted on the 1971 Glen 6 hour topic.  It is down a bit from the top.

 

http://www.pbase.com...s_glen&page=all

 

I followed F1 much more closely in those days and don't remember that many de-winged cars (but then I can't always remember what I had for supper yesterday these days...).



#154 Henri Greuter

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 07:23

From the top of my head, I recall A. J. Foyt running one of his Coyotes rear-wing-less in the mid-seventies, Ontario I think? And apart from Sneva, didn't the Galles team experiment without a rear wing in, I want to say 1984, drivers Geoff Brabham and Pancho Carter??

 

 

I also recall having seen a picture of a wingless Coyote.

 

But then, remember the first, original version of the 1974 'English leather' Riley-Offy, driven by Roger mcCluskey. That was also, like the Coyote, a car designed by Bob Riley. And initially it was designed without a conventional real wing but wit a Winglike extention behind the rear axle.

The article about the car in the 1974 Hungness has one or two pics of that car in that shape. It didn't work so it got a regular win after all.

 

Henri



#155 Henri Greuter

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 07:40

Getting back to the original thread topic, there is a nice photo of Pironi in the Ligier at Watkins Glen in 1980 with no nose wing on the Glen website that B Squared posted on the 1971 Glen 6 hour topic.  It is down a bit from the top.

 

http://www.pbase.com...s_glen&page=all

 

I followed F1 much more closely in those days and don't remember that many de-winged cars (but then I can't always remember what I had for supper yesterday these days...).

 

From memory, I believe Williams (and Lotus?) also occasionally ran without front wings in 1980. Brabham rarely used them at all and I believe that even Renault left them off on occasion.

 

the most ultimate front wing reduction I can recall of 1980.  The Ferrair 312T5, a semi wingcar at best must have had about the lowest figures for downforce of all cars that year and in need for every bit of downforce. But, of all places at Monaco, they ran the T5 with a narrowed front wing of about 1 meter wide or so instead of the full with front wing they ran in the rest of the year.

 

Heinz PrĂșller mentioned in his boog Grand Prisx story 1979 that at the debut event of the 1979 Ferrari 312T4 the team tried the car in practice without the full blade front wing but that was no success.

 

 

I have always liked thos single blade full width front wings on the Ferrari B3 - T5 series. Much more elegant then the megaflapped&lipped&edged contructions of today.

But with the raised noses going stronger than ever we wil neversee anyting like those fullblade wings anymore.

 

 

 

Henri



#156 Nemo1965

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:40

Getting back to the original thread topic, there is a nice photo of Pironi in the Ligier at Watkins Glen in 1980 with no nose wing on the Glen website that B Squared posted on the 1971 Glen 6 hour topic.  It is down a bit from the top.

 

http://www.pbase.com...s_glen&page=all

 

I followed F1 much more closely in those days and don't remember that many de-winged cars (but then I can't always remember what I had for supper yesterday these days...).

 

The Ligier-wing cars of 1979 and 1980 were reputed to have the best front end grip of all the cars. I remember reading an interview with designer Henri Guelpin (do I spell that name right?) that (superb biting front end) was also their downfall in 1980, because the rims of the tyres could just not take the load stressed on the wheels.

 

Could that be another incentive to try the car without the front wing? Or were it the rear-wheels that kept plopping on the Ligier?



#157 PeterElleray

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:21

The Ligier-wing cars of 1979 and 1980 were reputed to have the best front end grip of all the cars. I remember reading an interview with designer Henri Guelpin (do I spell that name right?) that (superb biting front end) was also their downfall in 1980, because the rims of the tyres could just not take the load stressed on the wheels.

 

Could that be another incentive to try the car without the front wing? Or were it the rear-wheels that kept plopping on the Ligier?

You are right - it was the fronts - specifically the 15" fronts. I think i recall some machining issues on those that meant that the front tyres were not maintaining pressure. Something that could (and was) corrected.

 

Eventually you can overload any tyre, but the generation of Goodyears and Michelin's in use at that time were designed to cope with Ground Effect levels of vertical and lateral load.

 

As we have discussed the front wing loading from those near uncambered, low incidence ,short chord winglets was not high.

 

I don't think i would have wanted to be in a situation where fitting them overloaded the front tyres, because it would have meant that i was close to that situation without them fitted....

 

Peter



#158 PeterElleray

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:28

From memory, I believe Williams (and Lotus?) also occasionally ran without front wings in 1980. Brabham rarely used them at all and I believe that even Renault left them off on occasion.

 

the most ultimate front wing reduction I can recall of 1980.  The Ferrair 312T5, a semi wingcar at best must have had about the lowest figures for downforce of all cars that year and in need for every bit of downforce. But, of all places at Monaco, they ran the T5 with a narrowed front wing of about 1 meter wide or so instead of the full with front wing they ran in the rest of the year.

 

Heinz PrĂșller mentioned in his boog Grand Prisx story 1979 that at the debut event of the 1979 Ferrari 312T4 the team tried the car in practice without the full blade front wing but that was no success.

 

 

I have always liked thos single blade full width front wings on the Ferrari B3 - T5 series. Much more elegant then the megaflapped&lipped&edged contructions of today.

But with the raised noses going stronger than ever we wil neversee anyting like those fullblade wings anymore.

 

 

 

Henri

Yes those Ferrari (and 77 Ligier, and 78 Wolf , and probably others if i have a longer think about it)) front wings looked superb - but they did tend to wobble around a bit when the car hit a kerb or a bump because of the single central support.

 

In 1981 most of the field ran with them until they figured out how to circumnavigate the 6cm skirt rule and claw back some underbody downforce.

 

To my mind the T4 was one of the best looking Ferrari's! I know others have the polar opposite view but i'm saying that because it was a 'whole car concept' and beautifully integrated, at least as far as the aero was concerned.

 

I thought that was the high water mark of the blade front wing concept. Getting the air off the wing without it hitting a brick wall was as much of a challenge as getting the wing support stiff enough, and the nose on the T4 Ferarri is very subtle in the way it achieves that and very clever .  Also in splitting the air under and over the body  - maybe the last bit wasn't quite as  subtle..

 

Unfortunately the elegance disappeared when that one piece body came off and you saw the chassis..

 

Peter


Edited by PeterElleray, 31 July 2014 - 12:28.


#159 Henri Greuter

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 13:43

Yes those Ferrari (and 77 Ligier, and 78 Wolf , and probably others if i have a longer think about it)) front wings looked superb - but they did tend to wobble around a bit when the car hit a kerb or a bump because of the single central support.

 

In 1981 most of the field ran with them until they figured out how to circumnavigate the 6cm skirt rule and claw back some underbody downforce.

 

To my mind the T4 was one of the best looking Ferrari's! I know others have the polar opposite view but i'm saying that because it was a 'whole car concept' and beautifully integrated, at least as far as the aero was concerned.

 

I thought that was the high water mark of the blade front wing concept. Getting the air off the wing without it hitting a brick wall was as much of a challenge as getting the wing support stiff enough, and the nose on the T4 Ferarri is very subtle in the way it achieves that and very clever .  Also in splitting the air under and over the body  - maybe the last bit wasn't quite as  subtle..

 

Unfortunately the elegance disappeared when that one piece body came off and you saw the chassis..

 

Peter

 

 

Here is another vote for the outwardish beauty of the T4.

Strangely enough, the T5 was for me nowhere near as beautiful.

 

Henri



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#160 PeterElleray

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 14:32

agreed - not sure i could say why either.

 

Peter



#161 Nemo1965

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 15:54

Unfortunately the elegance disappeared when that one piece body came off and you saw the chassis..

 

Peter

 

:rotfl:

 

I have in a book a series of pictures where you see that happening to the T5 in stages. It is as if you see Scarlet Johannson de-montaged: off goes the blond hair, the cheekbones, the nice teeth... and there is suddenly Angelica Huston in 'Witches'.

 

I often watched that page and thought: 'What was the idea behind THAT, Mauro?'



#162 Michael Ferner

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 15:56

I have always liked thos single blade full width front wings on the Ferrari B3 - T5 series. Much more elegant then the megaflapped&lipped&edged contructions of today.
But with the raised noses going stronger than ever we wil neversee anyting like those fullblade wings anymore.


Raised noses? Last time I saw a picture of 2014 style F1 cars, one with a penile nose tried to jump another with a vulva-style nose...


[aside]Hey, I can do quotes again!!! :)[/aside]

#163 Henri Greuter

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 18:45

Raised noses? Last time I saw a picture of 2014 style F1 cars, one with a penile nose tried to jump another with a vulva-style nose...


[aside]Hey, I can do quotes again!!! :)[/aside]

 

Well, those penile style nose addings are merely added in order to let the part behind and between the front wheels as high as possible

 

Wouldn't that have been something if we had a Williams crash with a Mercedes that tested that trumpet exhaust to impove the sound some weeks ago, And the penile nose extention of the Williams within that vulvatic trumpet of the merc? I can ennvision the photos and the headlines

 

"Williams raped Mercedes....

 

 

Henri

 

the vulvatic trumpet that Mer



#164 PeterElleray

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 19:10

Whilst we are on the subject of noses and aesthetics, for me, the best looking, most elegant, and 'racy' noses - by some margin - were those adopted on the Indycars during the 1990's. Doesn't matter which manufacturer. They were designed to a set of rules that produced  race cars whose  purity of line has seldom been equaled.

 

I was therefore, slightly deflated when the latest Dallara appeared a couple of years back. However, the new Indy Lights car is perhaps a step back  in the right direction.

 

Peter



#165 Henri Greuter

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:51

Whilst we are on the subject of noses and aesthetics, for me, the best looking, most elegant, and 'racy' noses - by some margin - were those adopted on the Indycars during the 1990's. Doesn't matter which manufacturer. They were designed to a set of rules that produced  race cars whose  purity of line has seldom been equaled.

 

I was therefore, slightly deflated when the latest Dallara appeared a couple of years back. However, the new Indy Lights car is perhaps a step back  in the right direction.

 

Peter

 

Pity that we never got to see tie Indy solutions for the Eagle and the Swifts at the speedway.

 

The Eagle with that beak and head painting on the car was one of the nicest  paint jobs I ever saw. Pity that the actual car never worked as well as hoped. Still wonder what the chassis could ahve achieved with a more reliable&powerful Ford or Honda for engine.

 

 

Henri



#166 funformula

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 07:16

Here is another vote for the outwardish beauty of the T4.

Strangely enough, the T5 was for me nowhere near as beautiful.

 

Henri

 

My first thought while seeing the new 2014 Catherham F1 was that when it would be painted in red, it would be the modern interpretation of the Ferrari T4.

Maybe it has something to do with the nose  ;)



#167 427MkIV

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 13:06

Whilst we are on the subject of noses and aesthetics, for me, the best looking, most elegant, and 'racy' noses - by some margin - were those adopted on the Indycars during the 1990's. Doesn't matter which manufacturer. They were designed to a set of rules that produced  race cars whose  purity of line has seldom been equaled.

 

I was therefore, slightly deflated when the latest Dallara appeared a couple of years back. However, the new Indy Lights car is perhaps a step back  in the right direction.

 

Peter

I agree completely that the early 1990s Indycars were probably the best-looking open-wheel cars ever. Individual cars from other formulas and other years have their appeal, but as a grid, those '90s Indy 500s were probably the best-looking. The Havoline livery on the Newman-Haas cars is my favorite.

 

I also have always liked the 312T Ferraris, though I can understand how others find it unattractive. The 126C2 has always been a favorite, too. 

 

Peter, it's great to have experts such as yourself, Rob, Nigel Bennett and Peter Morgan on this forum. Great insights.


Edited by 427MkIV, 01 August 2014 - 13:07.


#168 Marc Sproule

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 21:26

there are a number of the cars mentioned in this thread in my  champ car and f1sets, dates range from the '70s to the '90s with the majority from the '70s and '80s. eventually there will be a lot more from all 3 decades. i have over 70k images to deal with.....

 

https://www.flickr.c...81980@N03/sets/