81 replies to this topic

[pizzalover]

Ok, we're half way though the season, and judging by today's race, everyone looks like they are in a lower spec series compared to Mercedes.

 

Could those knowledgeable with the facts please summarise what is going on?

 

The rules are so tight now, such dominance seem inexplicable.  

[RubalSher]

Drivers??

[A.Fant]

Rosberg likely had a little extra pace in his pocket, but Bottas was on average 0.3s/lap slower on the exact same strategy - hardly leagues behind.

Edited by A.Fant, 20 July 2014 - 16:48.

[P123]

It's all down to the FRIC suspension.

Oh...

[Farhannn15]

A very good car backed up by two very competent drivers. Don't need much more than that

[FastnLoud]

Is it just me or does anyone think banning FRIC has actually made Mercedes faster because if we take Nico who didn't really push and finished 20 seconds ahead of the williams around a very short track which is not really about the aero more a power circuit bit like austria where Williams finished alot closer.

 

The FIA have made things worst hahaha

[DS27]

Hamilton more or less starts at the back of the grid and on something like lap 17 he is running 2nd (okay he was still to stop but even so).

It's quite frightening how much better their car is.

[pizzalover]

Rosberg likely had a little extra pace in his pocket, but Bottas was on average 0.3s/lap slower on the exact same strategy - hardly leagues behind.

 

Forget Rosberg, except fastest lap, last lap. He didn't really have any reason to go flat out, and many reasons why he shouldn't.

 

If Hamilton hadn't had a few things work against him today, second place easy-peasy.

 

This is crushing dominance. As I said, this isn't the 80s or 90s now. These cars should be much closer. 

Edited by pizzalover, 20 July 2014 - 17:04.

[Longtimefan]

The car is a pure rocketship.

Even Kimi could win in that.

[ardbeg]

If both Merc's would have started from pit lane today, one of them would have won. Apart from Monaco, I'm afraid it would have been the same in all races so far.

Have we ever seen a car this much ahead?

[muramasa]

What's going on?

A car.

 

At one time there were Merc and Caterham running together on the screen, and Caterham went bouncing like mad while Merc smooth as shinkansen on the rail. For a brief moment I thought a Caterham lost it and were going to spin>crash involving a Merc.

[DanardiF1]

Money spent on R&D? Mercedes are probably already into a phase of diminishing returns in this regulation set that the others just haven't reached yet, likely because of the massive lead time they committed to in R&D for the 2014 car and particularly powertrain. Their chassis is one of the best just as it was last season so that's not a surprise (though that they've cured their tyre issues so quickly is impressive) and we know the Mercedes powerunit is so much more refined than the other two, it just smacks of a bigger preparation.

 

The other teams will catch up in time.

[ensign14]

The question ought to be why were Mercedes not dominating in the last four years.  And that's because Brawn bought into the resource restriction, which everybody else promptly ignored.  Now Mercedes have caught up, they're going to be well clear.  They've got the money, they've got the brains, they've got the safety net, they've got the drivers and they haven't got Italian management.

[onewingedangel]

Mercedes have been developing this car for years, with all of its systems integrated into an optimised package.

 

The power unit package (including fuel and lubricants) is clearly the best. This advantage is locked considering in-season development freeze. Detailed information not provided to customer teams until late in their development cycle, meaning their solutions are less developed or possibly counter-productive to the final installation of the engine.

 

Current testing and resource limits make it more difficult to radically change or evolve a car in-season, prolonging that initial advantage more than in previous years where there was more scope for in-season development.

[Briz]

If both Merc's would have started from pit lane today, one of them would have won. Apart from Monaco, I'm afraid it would have been the same in all races so far.

Have we ever seen a car this much ahead?

 

1992 Williams but on the other hand without DRS, multiple pitstops and without defending drivers having to 'always leave the space' it would have been more difficult for Mansell to overtake the entire field at every track.

[A.Fant]

Forget Rosberg, except fastest lap, last lap. He didn't really have any reason to go flat out, and many reasons why he shouldn't.

 

If Hamilton hadn't had a few things work against him today, second place easy-peasy.

 

This is crushing dominance. As I said, this isn't the 80s or 90s now. These cars should be much closer. 

The three stop strategy was a lot faster, Rosberg and Bottas were nursing tyres all race. Rosberg did a 1:25.8 before his final stop as his tyres had fallen off completely, so I'm not convinced there was a lot more pace in the Merc on that strategy. Some, sure, but not a lot. Rosberg and Bottas both had big enough gaps to their competitors to make it work, and it's almost always safer to go with track position. Had Williams gone for a 3-stopper I think Bottas would've been closer to Rosberg and I don't think Hamilton would've caught up to him before the end of the race.

 

There is likely 0.3-0.5s between the Merc and the Williams in race trim, which isn't an enormous gap.

[Anderis]

The car is a pure rocketship.

Even Kimi could win in that.

I think Kimi finished behind Alonso many times this season with more gap, than Mercedes had over second fastest car at the finish, so I'm not 100% sure of that.

 

[Vinsin]

I think Kimi finished behind Alonso many times this season with more gap, than Mercedes had over second fastest car at the finish, so I'm not 100% sure of that.

Yes, Kimi won 20 races with cars that were way faster than Merc's advantage by 10 seconds or something over rivals throughout his career??!

Edited by Vinsin, 21 July 2014 - 02:40.

[zengiman]

This race and the last one you could see the Merc is almost 2 seconds a lap faster (even slightly hamperd by broken frontwing) then the next car. Go watch the timing screen when they really have to go all-out.  If they want they will lap  the entire field. Domination never seen in thirty years F1. They are smart enough to hide  is as much as possible. 

[Szoelloe]

Ok, we're half way though the season, and judging by today's race, everyone looks like they are in a lower spec series compared to Mercedes.

 

Could those knowledgeable with the facts please summarise what is going on?

 

The rules are so tight now, such dominance seem inexplicable.  

 

It's not, really. It is a post-rulechange Ross Brawn car. If Lowe does not mess things up too much, next season won't be too different either, though Whiting and the FIA have started the crusade already with the other ex-top teams active help. I really wonder where Ross will surface.

[A.Fant]

This race and the last one you could see the Merc is almost 2 seconds a lap faster (even slightly hamperd by broken frontwing) then the next car. Go watch the timing screen when they really have to go all-out.  If they want they will lap  the entire field. Domination never seen in thirty years F1. They are smart enough to hide  is as much as possible. 

The only time that was happening was when Hamilton had put on the supersofts and was in full attack mode while Bottas was in full conservation mode to ensure he still had tyres at the end of the race. The Mercedes is only 1s+ ahead of the rest in some people's imagination.

[zengiman]

The only time that was happening was when Hamilton had put on the supersofts and was in full attack mode while Bottas was in full conservation mode to ensure he still had tyres at the end of the race. The Mercedes is only 1s+ ahead of the rest in some people's imagination.

Think you should also look at the timing screen at Silverstone. When they really need it it's almost 2 seconds. A lap.

[Timstr11]

It's not, really. It is a post-rulechange Ross Brawn car. If Lowe does not mess things up too much, next season won't be too different either, though Whiting and the FIA have started the crusade already with the other ex-top teams active help. I really wonder where Ross will surface.

Quite.

I fear a bit for that given the mess he left behind at McLaren.

[Jon83]

Yes, Kimi won 20 races with cars that were way faster than today's Merc compared throughout his career.

 

But not with the pace advantage over the rest of the field, so hardy a comparison is it?

Edited by Jon83, 20 July 2014 - 18:01.

[A.Fant]

Think you should also look at the timing screen at Silverstone. When they really need it it's almost 2 seconds. A lap.

Still different tyre strategies, of course you are going to lap faster on a 2-stop than on a 1-stop. I'm not saying the Williams is as fast as the Merc, but to suggest that the gap is actually 2s/lap is ludicrous. I'd say the difference in the race was at worst 0.5-0.6s/lap in Germany and 0.8s-1s/lap in Britain.

Edited by A.Fant, 20 July 2014 - 18:07.

[masa90]

They just got everything done extremely well.

 

Boring? Oh yes but this crying about them being too good is stupid.

[fisssssi]

Engine and chassis are working in perfect harmony.

 

The other engine manufacturers have their hands tied up due to the stupid engine freeze, so the season is pretty much dead (and has been since Melbourne).

 

This is why I see Williams have now comfortably become the second best team: they already had the best engine, and they have been able to develop their chassis to overtake the others bar Mercedes. While Red Bull and Ferrari probably have a better chassis, their engine is weak and can't be developed.

 

So that's why Mercedes are so far ahead, and the only teams capable of catching them are the other Mercedes-powered teams.

[Nemo1965]

Mercedes have taken on a lot of personel and by golly, they have taken on the right personel.

 

Toto Wolff, Niki Lauda, Lewis Hamilton, Nico Rosberg and a lot of engineers that would be tiresome to list.

 

The second thing is that they have taken a lot of risk in developing the car, something that Red Bull just did not dare. It is paying off, both in positive as in negatives (the Mercedes is very squeamish about brakes).

[FastnLoud]

Mercedes have taken on a lot of personel and by golly, they have taken on the right personel.

 

Toto Wolff, Niki Lauda, Lewis Hamilton, Nico Rosberg and a lot of engineers that would be tiresome to list.

 

The second thing is that they have taken a lot of risk in developing the car, something that Red Bull just did not dare. It is paying off, both in positive as in negatives (the Mercedes is very squeamish about brakes).

 

Toto Wolff? What is his role at race weekends exactly?

[Stickyrubber]

Still different tyre strategies, of course you are going to lap faster on a 2-stop than on a 1-stop. I'm not saying the Williams is as fast as the Merc, but to suggest that the gap is actually 2s/lap is ludicrous. I'd say the difference in the race was at worst 0.5-0.6s/lap in Germany and 0.8s-1s/lap in Britain.

Bottas and rosberg were on the same lap/tyre strategy in the first stint. The Mercs advantage on full race fuel was 0.706s. After that Nico cruised. Lewis had fastest lap at 1.19.908. The Merc has still got it even on a short circuit like today's despite no FRIC.

[Nemo1965]

Toto Wolff? What is his role at race weekends exactly?

 

The same can be said about Lauda. Niki had a rather dismal period at Jaguar, remember. So I was rather sceptical at his coming to Mercedes (although I am a Lauda-fan).

 

So regarding Toto: it is not what he does in the race-weekends, the drivers, the mechanics and the strategists take care of that. But the daily business of F1 outside of the track and then transporting that to the track, for that you have to have a group of people that click together... and it clicks.

[Peter Perfect]

The car is a pure rocketship.

Even Kimi could win in that.

 

Ah no, the Red Bull 2010-2013 was a rocketship (I read it on this forum    ). The Mercedes is a.... ermmm... suggestions?

[Fonzey]

Is it just me or does anyone think banning FRIC has actually made Mercedes faster because if we take Nico who didn't really push and finished 20 seconds ahead of the williams around a very short track which is not really about the aero more a power circuit bit like austria where Williams finished alot closer.

 

The FIA have made things worst hahaha

 

What has the length of the track got to do with the final finishing gap?

 

Lap length only mitigates lap pace, not race finishing times.

[A.Fant]

Bottas and rosberg were on the same lap/tyre strategy in the first stint. The Mercs advantage on full race fuel was 0.706s. After that Nico cruised. Lewis had fastest lap at 1.19.908. The Merc has still got it even on a short circuit like today's despite no FRIC.

They were 10.078s apart when they both pitted on lap 15, which means the average was 0.672s. As they pitted on the same lap, I think you can include their in-laps in the comparison as they do not include the pit stops themselves. Minor quibble, but you posted a difference to the 0.001s so I thought a correction was in order. That was on the supersofts.

 

On the softs though, the story was different. Considering how slow Nico was at the end of his second stint, it suggests that he couldn't have gone much faster over that period of the race. From their first stop until Bottas pitted the average difference was 0.278s (after they both completed their outlaps, i.e. end of lap 16 to Bottas' last flying lap on lap 39). On the subsequent lap Nico posted a 1:25.804 and had a very slow in-lap on 41 suggesting his tyres were shot. Had he gone faster during the stint the tyres would've gone earlier.

Edited by A.Fant, 20 July 2014 - 19:02.

[FastnLoud]

What has the length of the track got to do with the final finishing gap?

 

Lap length only mitigates lap pace, not race finishing times.

 

Are you on drugs

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

It will be interesting to see how the Mercedes operated without FRIC on the bumpier tracks like Hungary. As I understand it, the smoother tracks like Germany, Italy, Spa won't show up the lack of FRIC dependency like the older bumpier tracks.

 

I still expect them to dominate the season though. 

[FastnLoud]

It will be interesting to see how the Mercedes operated without FRIC on the bumpier tracks like Hungary. As I understand it, the smoother tracks like Germany, Italy, Spa won't show up the lack of FRIC dependency like the older bumpier tracks.

 

I still expect them to dominate the season though. 

 

Well Dan's Redbull was sparking at the front and Martin Brundle said that was to do with FRIC so they could be in trouble in Hungary, i guess Mercedes may struggle a bit more but their pace was always more than FRIC

[Atreiu]

They had 5 consecutive weekends of impecable performance, but now they can't get 2 in a row.

I really think they (drivers + team + partners/suppliers) should regroup and say 'we have this once in a lifetime opportunity, for fvcks sake, let's keep it together'.

[Jovanotti]

For me, Williams is just as impressive. Yes they have a Merc engine, but they are on a much smaller budget, couldn't jointly develop car & PU inhouse and don't have quite the same quality on the driver side as Mercedes. Their resurgence from last year is fantastic

[DanardiF1]

What has the length of the track got to do with the final finishing gap?

 

Lap length only mitigates lap pace, not race finishing times.

 

Well if you're a second a lap faster at Spa, given no other variables you'll be 45 seconds up the road by the end of the race. 

 

If you're a second a lap faster at Monaco, again given no other variables you'll be 78 seconds up the road and nearly lapping the other car.

Edited by DanardiF1, 20 July 2014 - 20:55.

[ollebompa]

Historically their advantage is not that great, just bigger then we have been used to recently.

[Bleu]

Well if you're a second a lap faster at Spa, given no other variables you'll be 45 seconds up the road by the end of the race. 

 

If you're a second a lap faster at Monaco, again given no other variables you'll be 78 seconds up the road and nearly lapping the other car.

 

But it's more likely to build bigger gap on lap around Spa. Let's say that car is 1,5 tenths faster/kilometre. At Spa it's over a second ahead, at Monaco just about half a second.

[Fonzey]

Are you on drugs

 

Well if you're a second a lap faster at Spa, given no other variables you'll be 45 seconds up the road by the end of the race. 

 

If you're a second a lap faster at Monaco, again given no other variables you'll be 78 seconds up the road and nearly lapping the other car.

 

Hmmm not sure if I worded it badly or if you're just not thinking about this properly!

 

With the exception of Monaco, all Grand Prix events are aimed to have a similar race distance to each other. This is why Spa has 40 odd laps, and Germany today had 60 odd.

 

Lap length is only relevant when discussing the actual laptime differential between two cars. For example, if Nico was 2 secs per lap quicker than Bottas around Spa and Germany - the Germany pace would be more impressive because the lap is shorter, hence less opportunity to make the gap.

 

Saying that a car is 20sec ahead at the end of this GP and commenting on the lap length is pretty much the point I'm getting at, the lap length doesn't make the 20sec gap any more, or less impressive than it would if he had a 20sec lead at the end of Spa.

[garagetinkerer]

The question ought to be why were Mercedes not dominating in the last four years.  And that's because Brawn bought into the resource restriction, which everybody else promptly ignored.  Now Mercedes have caught up, they're going to be well clear.  They've got the money, they've got the brains, they've got the safety net, they've got the drivers and they haven't got Italian management.

We've disagreed a lot over the last two or three days For once i'm in complete agreement with what you say. Especially the highlighted part, as a tifoso, this is something that's starting to get a little long in the tooth i fear.

 

Edited by garagetinkerer, 21 July 2014 - 00:44.

[f1RacingForever]

For me, Williams is just as impressive. Yes they have a Merc engine, but they are on a much smaller budget, couldn't jointly develop car & PU inhouse and don't have quite the same quality on the driver side as Mercedes. Their resurgence from last year is fantastic

It's mostly engine related imo. They we nowhere at Aero tracks like Spain and Malaysia. Monaco was pretty sub par as well. The past few races have suited the Mercedes engine. In this race for example, looking at the q3 sector times, almost all of their advantage over teams like Ferrari and Redbull is in s2 which is pretty much 2 long straights. The Redbulls were actually quicker in sectors 1 and 3, with Alonso's Ferrari very close behind.

[BillBald]

Hmmm not sure if I worded it badly or if you're just not thinking about this properly!

 

With the exception of Monaco, all Grand Prix events are aimed to have a similar race distance to each other. This is why Spa has 40 odd laps, and Germany today had 60 odd.

 

Lap length is only relevant when discussing the actual laptime differential between two cars. For example, if Nico was 2 secs per lap quicker than Bottas around Spa and Germany - the Germany pace would be more impressive because the lap is shorter, hence less opportunity to make the gap.

 

Saying that a car is 20sec ahead at the end of this GP and commenting on the lap length is pretty much the point I'm getting at, the lap length doesn't make the 20sec gap any more, or less impressive than it would if he had a 20sec lead at the end of Spa.

 

All very logical, but...

 

You didn't answer the question! 

[JTSaika]

This car has been worked on since 2012 if not earlier then that. It had both the genius of Ross Brawn and Michael Schumacher developing it and it features one of the most dominant power supplies on the grid and is now being driver by a man who almost won two WDC's in the first two years of his career and who gave both Alonso and Button a run for their money and another driver who constantly out drove Michael Schumacher and also won a few races in a mid-field car in a year with a rather equal to this year dominant Red Bull. It speaks for it self. 

[teejay]

Lets be real, Michael had nothing to do with the development of this car.

[JTSaika]

Lets be real, Michael had nothing to do with the development of this car.

What lol? That's one of, if not the main reason he came back in the first place. He was always passionate about the cars as well just winning. 

[hollowstar]

What lol? That's one of, if not the main reason he came back in the first place. He was always passionate about the cars as well just winning. 

 

Yes, but he has nothing to do with the W05...