37 replies to this topic

[Gareth]

Inspired by the Merc decision to pit Hamilton early on his final stop, in case the Sutil incident brought out a safety car.

 

So - what are the best tactics around safety car pitstops?

 

My (basic) understanding would be that it would always be better to pit once the SC is deployed:

 

1. As everyone has to drive to a delta, you lose less time pitting under the SC as the difference between the pitlane speed limit and on-track speed is smaller and the distance that on-track cars cover whilst you are stationary is also smaller.

 

2. Given where the SC is to be deployed and that it picks up the leader, you should be able to get into the pitlane driving to the delta (rather than behind the SC) before being picked up by the SC.

 

Given Mercedes' call on the Hamilton stop, though, I assume I must be wrong on this in some way.  They must have thought that pitting just prior to the SC would be beneficial.

 

Is this just a hangover from pre-delta days, and they got it wrong?  Or have I got it wrong?

[TomNokoe]

They foresaw a SC which would've hindered Lewis's chances of getting by Bottas as Bottas would've had fresher tyres. There could've been a swing of a few tenths for Lewis during his outlap and the remaining delta which could've jumped him above Bottas.

Baring in mind they had already passed the incident, done a whole lap and a SC still hadn't been called, their judgement was a little suspect.

Edited by TomNokoe, 21 July 2014 - 07:23.

[Anderis]

My (basic) understanding would be that it would always be better to pit once the SC is deployed:

I believe you're right on this, as I explained it in the other topic yesterday.

 

There are some examples in the past, that drivers who made their pit stops before SC lost quite a bit to drivers, who did it after SC was deployed. And some drivers tried to last on the tyres as long as possible, hoping for SC.

[PayasYouRace]

It used to be more clear cut before the delta as everyone would stack up quicker. If you had just pitted, you'd jump the whole field as they pitted. This was even more pronounced when the pits used to close.

But I believe you're right that nowadays it doesn't pay off.

[Clatter]

I think they panicked a bit because LH complained when he wasn't wasn't brought in early at Monaco.

[Zava]

yes Gareth, you're right on this one. 

 

best example I can think of right now is australia '12, Hamilton and Vettel at the second stop: Vettel was trailing him with about 1,5 sec behind, Hamilton came to the pits, then they deployed the SC, then a lap later, Vettel stopped as well. result? from 1,5 sec behind he got ahead by about the lenght of the finish straight.

reason is Vettel had to travel a lot less of the track at the delta speed, if I remember correctly then he was near the end of S2 when the SC came in, and Hamilton at the start of it, which means Vettel could go fast for the whole S2 while Hamilton already had to take it easy.

[SophieB]

I secretly think everyone gets endlessly confused by the safety car. Frankly, it always comes off like they all just roll the dice and hope for the best. Maybe I just think that because all the commentators' predictions of who is going to benefit/lose out so frequently turn out to be so very wide of the mark?

[RubalSher]

That is what I understood too. Pitting right after SC has been deployed seems to make the most sense.

[TomNokoe]

What about Monaco 2013, though? Both Webber and Vettel jumped Hamilton. Hamilton was late to his box but it didn't seem like it would've mattered, even with the delta playing into Hamilton's favour.

[PlatenGlass]

What about Monaco 2013, though? Both Webber and Vettel jumped Hamilton. Hamilton was late to his box but it didn't seem like it would've mattered, even with the delta playing into Hamilton's favour.

It makes sense to pit in anticipation if both cars from a team are running close together so they don't have to "stack" them. At Monaco, Hamilton dropped back from Rosberg to avoid stacking, but did so too much, and I think that's why he lost out. I don't know why he did that though. If you're coming in on the same lap anyway, it's far easier to queue behind your team-mate than try to time it so that you arrive at the pitbox exactly as your team-mate is leaving.

[HP]

It makes sense to pit in anticipation if both cars from a team are running close together so they don't have to "stack" them. At Monaco, Hamilton dropped back from Rosberg to avoid stacking, but did so too much, and I think that's why he lost out. I don't know why he did that though. If you're coming in on the same lap anyway, it's far easier to queue behind your team-mate than try to time it so that you arrive at the pitbox exactly as your team-mate is leaving.

You always have to take extra caution for overheating when the car is being stationary. And Merc had some issues back than AFAIR. Also pitstops can be delayed compounding the stationary idle time and finally it also depends how fast the team can be ready for the next car. So it's hard to tell if Hamilton at that particular stop lost any time.

 

Other things to consider are the length of a track. At Monaco driving to a delta doesn't delay that much, even more so since it's not a high speed track

[HoldenRT]

It used to be that pitting RIGHT before the SC offered a big advantage but these days I have no idea and still haven't figured it out.  It seems to be on a race to race basis whether you benefit or not, depending on what other people do.  It also matters if both cars are close and need to avoid queuing in the pit lane.  I still haven't figured out if it's better to pit before SC or during SC.  It seems a bit random..

 

edit - So I guess, just rehashing what everyone else said, probably should have read the comments first.

 

With Lewis, not sure why they pitted him, but it's easy to judge these things in hindsight.

Edited by HoldenRT, 21 July 2014 - 11:59.

[Gareth]

Thanks all for the helpful comments.  Good to see I'm not going mad, and that it's likely that pitting under the SC is an advantage nowadays (a reversal of how it was previously, where stopping just before provided the advantage).

 

The best theory as to Mercedes' approach seems to be this:

 

They foresaw a SC which would've hindered Lewis's chances of getting by Bottas as Bottas would've had fresher tyres. There could've been a swing of a few tenths for Lewis during his outlap and the remaining delta which could've jumped him above Bottas.

Baring in mind they had already passed the incident, done a whole lap and a SC still hadn't been called, their judgement was a little suspect.

I suppose staying out would pretty much guarantee being behind Bottas.  So I suppose if the gap to the car behind was comfortable, it may have been a no downside call in the event of a SC.  But the upside seems very limited to me - Hamilton's pace on the fresh rubber would have had to have been a huge improvement to outweigh the time loss of pitting prior to the SC vs under it.

 

The downside, on the other hand, was what we saw.

 

If you're coming in on the same lap anyway, it's far easier to queue behind your team-mate than try to time it so that you arrive at the pitbox exactly as your team-mate is leaving.

 

Queueing could have risks, though, such as overheating.

[tifosi]

If you are able to pit just before the safety car comes out, you can complete your stop then race around to the pack.  When everyone else pits under the SC, you'd be ahead of them.

 

, depending on what other people do.

 

   This.

[Gareth]

then race around to the pack

Thanks to the Delta, you can't do this any more.

[Clatter]

I secretly think everyone gets endlessly confused by the safety car. Frankly, it always comes off like they all just roll the dice and hope for the best. Maybe I just think that because all the commentators' predictions of who is going to benefit/lose out so frequently turn out to be so very wide of the mark?

I think they forget about the delta and carry on talking as if they were still allowed to rush back to the pits.

[ElDictatore]

It seems weird, doesn't it? Before the whole delta thing, it was kind of clear. I guess it depends on where on the track you are. I think Jenson had a big gain in safety car this year (australia?) where he just made it into the box since the cars just in front had to make a whole lap behind the safety car I think. So to me it seems, the earlier you get in when safety car is deployed the bigger your gain is but it's depending on what others around you do, as HoldenRT gladly pointed out. So you kinda have to luck into that I guess but the probability of gaining something through SC (other than equalizing the gap) is very low.

 

However the whole 'driving to the Delta' still confuses me for some reason. Same thing for how the SC picks up the cars.

 

EDIT: Driving to the Delta is still faster than the SC itself, right?

Edited by ElDictatore, 22 July 2014 - 16:38.

[redreni]

His gap to the leader was, I think, big enough that he could not be caught out i.e. if the SC was deployed in time to pick up Rosberg at pit-out, Hamilton would not yet have passed pit-in and would not, therefore, have had to do a lap stuck behind the SC. So yes, I agree they got it wrong.

 

As an aside, I think there should be mandatory minimum 20s wait between the SC boards and flags going out, and the SC being scrambled, and I think the SC should always wait until the leader is approaching before leaving the pit lane. That would remove a lot of randomness that can distort the race in a totally unnecessary way. Because at the moment the leader can be screwed incredibly badly if he is just passing pit in when the boards and flags come out, because he will be picked up at pit out and, by the time he's done a lap on the SC's gearbox, he will have people immediately behind him who have pitted and caught him up, and if he then pits himself he will lose massive track position. So the 20s wait would address that, because it would ensure the leader would get a chance to pit before he starts losing his gap to the cars behind. And if he the SC isn't coming out ahead of the leader, he's just cruising around causing a hazard and forcing everybody else to overtake. And, under the current system where the SC can pick up any old car and then start waving people by, people lose a random amount of time waiting for the SC driver to decide that it's safe to let them go. Alonso got screwed by this in the 2010 European Grand Prix when, for whatever, reason, the SC driver would not allow him to pass at any point during the lap. Alonso lost so much time that he finished ninth having been running a strong third, and Hamilton would have been in a very similar position had he not overtaken the SC without permission. He was penalised but it was much better to break the rule and take the penalty than to follow the rule. So all in all, it's surely better to keep the cars running on the deltas until everyone has had a chance to pit before they start losing their gap to the cars behind them, then have the SC pick up the leader. Then everyone would know for sure that it would always be better to wait rather than pit in anticipation of a SC.

Edited by redreni, 22 July 2014 - 16:48.

[alfa1]

I think there should be mandatory minimum 20s wait between the SC boards and flags going out, and the SC being scrambled,

and I think the SC should always wait until the leader is approaching ...

 

People seem to forget that its a *safety* car, and not a "make the race fair for everyone" car.

 

The safety car should be deployed as soon as it is required for safety reasons. The person who decides to deploy the safety car should do so based on safety reasons. If the safety car is required for safety reasons, then it should be deployed at that time.

[Clatter]

People seem to forget that its a *safety* car, and not a "make the race fair for everyone" car.

 

The safety car should be deployed as soon as it is required for safety reasons. The person who decides to deploy the safety car should do so based on safety reasons. If the safety car is required for safety reasons, then it should be deployed at that time.

Agree, and they shouldn't then be waving cars through so that leader is at the head of the pack.  

[Bleu]

About unfair situation caused by SC I can also remember one GP2 race where the leader (IIRC it was Calado) just passed the pit entry, then SC was deployed and SC managed to get ahead of Calado. Basically everyone else managed to pit and Calado ended (almost) last after making his own stop.

[BillBald]

It seems weird, doesn't it? Before the whole delta thing, it was kind of clear. I guess it depends on where on the track you are. I think Jenson had a big gain in safety car this year (australia?) where he just made it into the box since the cars just in front had to make a whole lap behind the safety car I think. So to me it seems, the earlier you get in when safety car is deployed the bigger your gain is but it's depending on what others around you do, as HoldenRT gladly pointed out. So you kinda have to luck into that I guess but the probability of gaining something through SC (other than equalizing the gap) is very low.

 

However the whole 'driving to the Delta' still confuses me for some reason. Same thing for how the SC picks up the cars.

 

EDIT: Driving to the Delta is still faster than the SC itself, right?

 

It's complicated and a bit random. The factors which count are whether a team needs to stack its cars, and when and where the safety car comes out.

 

The reason why Jenson got a benefit in Oz from pitting just as the SC was called, was because Kimi needed to stack behind Alonso.

 

Kimi did a slow inlap, in other words slower than the Delta. This was the correct response as it stopped anyone behind him from jumping him. Kimi effectively had a normal pitstop (without stacking) because he didn't arrive at his pitbox until Ferrari had finished with Alonso. The car behind Kimi also had a slow inlap, because he couldn't overtake Kimi, so he lost the same amount of time. It was as though he also had to stack behind Alonso.

 

Unfortunately for Kimi, Jenson wasn't being held up when he did the slow inlap, because Jenson had already pitted and could do his outlap at normal Delta speed. In Monaco, Jenson again dived into the pits as soon as the SC was called, but this time he gained no advantage as no-one was stacking (or they were too far ahead anyway). Jenson could have gained an advantage if the SC had come out ahead of the cars in front and held them at less than Delta speed.

 

So, if you pit immediately the SC is called, you can get an advantage, but it's not guaranteed. If you stop before the SC, anticipating it, you will definitely lose out unless stacking would have caused you to lose positions. So Lewis was wrong to criticise the team for not doing that in Monaco. He could have lost out badly if no SC had been called, and he would only have had a chance of getting past Rosberg if the SC had immediately come out in front of Rosberg and slowed him up.

Edited by BillBald, 22 July 2014 - 17:20.

[redreni]

About unfair situation caused by SC I can also remember one GP2 race where the leader (IIRC it was Calado) just passed the pit entry, then SC was deployed and SC managed to get ahead of Calado. Basically everyone else managed to pit and Calado ended (almost) last after making his own stop.

 

Yep, that's one problem.

 

And the other is that if you're not leading and you encounter the SC, you run to the deltas until you catch the SC, then you slow down behind him for a random amount of time until the SC driver waves you by, then you get going again. The nice thing about everybody running to the deltas is, if you look on the driver tracker, you can see that nobody is losing or gaining anything relative to anyone else, and having the SC going around not picking up the leader, providing a random obstacle for some cars and not others, is simply meddling with the gaps between the cars without any safety benefit at all. It doesn't take any longer to gather the field up if the SC waits until the leader is approaching before he takes to the track than if he goes out and starts waving people by until the leader catches him. All it means is you've got an extra car on the track, which only gives anybody working at the scene of the incident one more hazard to worry about.

[redreni]

It's complicated and a bit random. The factors which count are whether a team needs to stack its cars, and when and where the safety car comes out.

 

The reason why Jenson got a benefit in Oz from pitting just as the SC was called, was because Kimi needed to stack behind Alonso.

 

Kimi did a slow inlap, in other words slower than the Delta. This was the correct response as it stopped anyone behind him from jumping him. Kimi effectively had a normal pitstop (without stacking) because he didn't arrive at his pitbox until Ferrari had finished with Alonso. The car behind Kimi also had a slow inlap, because he couldn't overtake Kimi, so he lost the same amount of time. It was as though he also had to stack behind Alonso.

 

Unfortunately for Kimi, Jenson wasn't being held up when he did the slow inlap, because Jenson had already pitted and could do his outlap at normal Delta speed. In Monaco, Jenson again dived into the pits as soon as the SC was called, but this time he gained no advantage as no-one was stacking (or they were too far ahead anyway). Jenson could have gained an advantage if the SC had come out ahead of the cars in front and held them at less than Delta speed.

 

So, if you pit immediately the SC is called, you can get an advantage, but it's not guaranteed. If you stop before the SC, anticipating it, you will definitely lose out unless stacking would have caused you to lose positions. So Lewis was wrong to criticise the team for not doing that in Monaco. He could have lost out badly if no SC had been called, and he would only have had a chance of getting past Rosberg if the SC had immediately come out in front of Rosberg and slowed him up.

 

I didn't think that was allowed? Is that not covered by Article 40.5 of the Sporting Regs?
 

 

40.5
No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

 

 

Maybe if people are going slower than the deltas with the aim of impeding the car behind, rather than stacking and not costing the people who were behind you on the track any time, the rules need to be strengthened against impeding under the SC. Because if you're going slowly to avoid stacking, by definition you're not only helping yourself by impeding the cars behind, you're helping your teammate as well. So one minute people will be doing it because they might as well - it's better than stacking - the next they'll be impeding even when they're not in danger of having to stack, purely as team tactic to use the second car to slow other people down. That wants clamping down on,

 

Previously the rule about keeping within 10 car lengths pretty much precluded impeding, but now we have the deltas, there's a huge opportunity to impede cars behind you while everyone's supposedly running to the delta.

[BillBald]

Yep, that's one problem.

 

And the other is that if you're not leading and you encounter the SC, you run to the deltas until you catch the SC, then you slow down behind him for a random amount of time until the SC driver waves you by, then you get going again. The nice thing about everybody running to the deltas is, if you look on the driver tracker, you can see that nobody is losing or gaining anything relative to anyone else, and having the SC going around not picking up the leader, providing a random obstacle for some cars and not others, is simply meddling with the gaps between the cars without any safety benefit at all. It doesn't take any longer to gather the field up if the SC waits until the leader is approaching before he takes to the track than if he goes out and starts waving people by until the leader catches him. All it means is you've got an extra car on the track, which only gives anybody working at the scene of the incident one more hazard to worry about.

 

That makes sense, except that if the SC did try to do that, it would require a bit more precision than F1 seems capable of. Don't forget that the leader often changes at this time due to some drivers pitting. Most times the SC would probably miss the leader, and then we'd have the same situation we have now, but delayed, so even longer SC periods.

 

But I do get what you are saying about the unfairness, sometimes cars are waved past right away, other times they can lose a bunch of places. 

[BillBald]

I didn't think that was allowed? Is that not covered by Article 40.5 of the Sporting Regs?
 

 

Maybe if people are going slower than the deltas with the aim of impeding the car behind, rather than stacking and not costing the people who were behind you on the track any time, the rules need to be strengthened against impeding under the SC. Because if you're going slowly to avoid stacking, by definition you're not only helping yourself by impeding the cars behind, you're helping your teammate as well. So one minute people will be doing it because they might as well - it's better than stacking - the next they'll be impeding even when they're not in danger of having to stack, purely as team tactic to use the second car to slow other people down. That wants clamping down on,

 

Previously the rule about keeping within 10 car lengths pretty much precluded impeding, but now we have the deltas, there's a huge opportunity to impede cars behind you while everyone's supposedly running to the delta.

 

Maybe it does need clamping down on, but everyone does it.

 

Remember last year when Lewis was said to have driven too slowly, people questioned whether he'd got it right tactically, not whether he was allowed to do it.

[redreni]

People seem to forget that its a *safety* car, and not a "make the race fair for everyone" car.

 

The safety car should be deployed as soon as it is required for safety reasons. The person who decides to deploy the safety car should do so based on safety reasons. If the safety car is required for safety reasons, then it should be deployed at that time.

 

I'm just not sure how it improves safety to have the SC out there if people are restricted to the deltas, except that when the SC does eventually gather up the field, it creates a period of safety for people to work on the track after the SC train has passed the incident scene each lap. But that doesn't happen any quicker under the current system than it would under the system where the SC picks up the leader, except in the rare instance where the leader would have been picked up at turn 1 having not had an opportunity to pit since the SC was called, thereby destroying his race. But even in that case, the amount of time taken to gather up the field would be scarcely any longer than it might have been had the incident happened a few seconds later and the leader passed the SC before it entered the track. Ultimately if the situation is such that it's not reasonable to expect the marshalls and rescue workers at the incident scene to wait a couple of laps for the pack to form up behind the SC, then it must be a serious situation and the Race Director should seriously consider stopping the race.

 

That makes sense, except that if the SC did try to do that, it would require a bit more precision than F1 seems capable of. Don't forget that the leader often changes at this time due to some drivers pitting. Most times the SC would probably miss the leader, and then we'd have the same situation we have now, but delayed, so even longer SC periods.

 

But I do get what you are saying about the unfairness, sometimes cars are waved past right away, other times they can lose a bunch of places. 

 

When the leader approaches pit in, scramble the SC. That way even if the leader pits and cars behind him don't, so the lead changes, the new leader will still end up behind the SC. Other cars may get caught behind the SC and have to wait to be waved by, admittedly, which is what we should be trying to avoid, but that would only affect cars that are lapped or nearly lapped, as nobody else would be on the relevant bit of track, so at least the system of picking up the leader would protect the race for the top positions from being compromised needlessly.

Edited by redreni, 22 July 2014 - 20:01.

[MightyMoose]

Must confess to being out of touch on the actual rules, but does the delta time for the first sector begin from the start-finish line? 

 

Sounds a dumb question but let me explain.

 

If Sector 1 has a delta of say 40 secs.  Driver pits as soon as the safety car comes out and makes his stop - his garage is after the finish line so technically he's tripped his delta time, the 3 secs stop & pit speed gives him the ability to blast away out of the pits and technically close the gap down by the conclusion of sector 1.  He's done his stop, but lost virtually nothing except potentially track position to anyone who didn't stop at the same time.

 

The other drivers catch the SC later in the lap and have also maintained the deltas, but effectively still have to stop, sure they can equally blast away, but only if the road is clear & I'd think the gap would be full of a grinning driver A cruising to the delta.

 

Probably badly explained and probably not remotely possible under the rules, but given teams have tried to exploit every possible angle is it unrealistic to say teams may have considered this?

[redreni]

Must confess to being out of touch on the actual rules, but does the delta time for the first sector begin from the start-finish line? 
 
Sounds a dumb question but let me explain.
 
If Sector 1 has a delta of say 40 secs.  Driver pits as soon as the safety car comes out and makes his stop - his garage is after the finish line so technically he's tripped his delta time, the 3 secs stop & pit speed gives him the ability to blast away out of the pits and technically close the gap down by the conclusion of sector 1.  He's done his stop, but lost virtually nothing except potentially track position to anyone who didn't stop at the same time.
 
The other drivers catch the SC later in the lap and have also maintained the deltas, but effectively still have to stop, sure they can equally blast away, but only if the road is clear & I'd think the gap would be full of a grinning driver A cruising to the delta.
 
Probably badly explained and probably not remotely possible under the rules, but given teams have tried to exploit every possible angle is it unrealistic to say teams may have considered this?

For the purposes of the SC deltas the track is not divided into three timing sectors, it's divided into approximately as many timing loops as there are marshals' posts around the track. I'm not sure, if you pit, whether you get a meaningful delta time for the pit entry, because I'm not sure if the system is good enough to know if you are pitting or not. No delta time is needed for the pit lane since there is already a speed limit.

[Jejking]

People seem to forget that its a *safety* car, and not a "make the race fair for everyone" car.

The safety car should be deployed as soon as it is required for safety reasons. The person who decides to deploy the safety car should do so based on safety reasons. If the safety car is required for safety reasons, then it should be deployed at that time.

Although at first I agree to not allow drivers through, I suspect it doesn't matter a lot. SC means full course double yellow flags, together with the new delta time rule everybody has to take it easy already.

[redreni]

Although at first I agree to not allow drivers through, I suspect it doesn't matter a lot. SC means full course double yellow flags, together with the new delta time rule everybody has to take it easy already.

 

Of course it makes a difference, the difference between running behind the SC and running to the deltas is huge, and if you being held behind the SC, your gap to the cars behind is being eroded very quickly, and this affects where you will emerge if you pit at the end of the lap.

 

And if you're leading the race and you're in the last corner when the SC is called, it will pick you up at the pit exit, people who were running behind you will pit, and they will then emerge from the pit lane and catch up to you before the end of the lap. So if you pit, you will fall way down the order. In fact, in that case, it's better to overtake the SC illegally because, as we found out in Valencia 2010, the penalty for doing so is rather small, and the gain is enormous.  What contribution is a set of rules that can, in certain relatively rare circumstances, incentivise overtaking the SC making to track safety?

 

Being realistic about this, when an incident occurs that merits a SC, even if it's a serious incident, the likelihood is that nearly the whole track will be clear. And in the parts of the track that are clear, there is no safety benefit at all to having cars held behind the SC while the SC crew pontificate and liaise with the clerk of the course about whether or when to wave them by. There may be a marginal safety benefit to having cars held behind the SC as they pass the scene of the incident, but until the SC has picked up the leader and the pack has formed up, the vast majority of cars on the track aren't going to be behind the SC when they pass the incident scene. And so, if the situation is so bad that the Race Director can't contemplate allowing cars to pass the incident scene under a full course caution and on the lap deltas, rather than at the slower speeds that the SC does, at least until the pack has formed up, then he should stop the race. Or, if the issue is that cars that are observing the SC deltas are going too fast to be able to safely negotiate the bit of track where the incident is, there's a fairly obvious technical solution to that, which is to make it possible for race control to impose slower delta times on specific parts of the track, so that the minimum times displayed on the drivers' steering wheels for the timing loops that take them past the incident can be increased so that cars have to proceed much more slowly in that area. That way everybody would be affected equally, which is fairer, and all cars would be forced to go dead slow past the incident rather than only a few cars, which is safer.

Edited by redreni, 23 July 2014 - 10:22.

[PlatenGlass]

Today we saw what can happen if you don't pit early. Those in front of Button and Ricciardo lost out by not being able to pit on the same lap as them. I presume the safety car picked them up, and driving behind the safety car must be slower than driving to the delta or the pack would never bunch up. But tit also depends on when they catch the safety car.

[HoldenRT]

It was a bit different today due to the dry/wet track and the different tyres.  We saw people racing on slicks trying to stay on track and to stay infront and we say other cars with worn inters.  Hard to judge today because it was unique compared to usual SC races.  I was surprised to see Ricciardo and Button gain so much but it doesn't mean they would gain so much in another race under different circumstances.

[sanW10]

In the previous Safety Car rules, the 'pit lane' was closed for the SC period (few laps), was it for these kind of (today's race result)  reasons?

So that no one gets any kind of 'extra' advantage?

 

But the current SC rules are confusing.

[chrcol]

Ok so its like this.

 

There is race pace (lets assume dry conditions)

Delta pace

SC pace

 

Fastest to slowest in that order.

 

Meaning those who are at delta pace drive faster than those tailing the SC at SC pace.  Also means the penalty for pitting without a SC is worse than with a SC.

 

However

 

It is quite easy to blow it.  Take today's race.

Rosberg (and 2nd and 3rd placed drivers) was behind the SC almost as soon as it came out meaning he had no delta pace, he had to do a full lap before he pitted at sC pace.  Whilst lewis and co got to the pits at delta pace.

Mag didnt pit, not pitting during a SC can be very beneficial, as cars are bunched up you make a ton of places.  You get track position, but this has to be played right as you need to be competitive to make a gap on those behind to make it work.

 

So to summarise.

Pitting early on a SC is an advantage if inside the planned pit window.

Making an extra pit stop for the sake of it can be a bad move. (outside of pit winoow)

Pitting late during a SC can be very bad, as bunched up cars overtake you.

Pitting too early can also be bad as you pit whilst everyone at race pace, and they they pit after your pitstop whilst you at delta/SC pace.

 

So in my view unless your tryes are shot if you cannot pit early at a SC its better to stay out.  But for rosberg he was in a no win situation as the problem was the track dried out meaning if he stayed out he would have been on the wrong tryes.  Bottas and vettel however could have pitted, they simply didnt react quick enough.  We seen from coverage that when they passed the pit entry SC alerts were on.

[chrcol]

Of course it makes a difference, the difference between running behind the SC and running to the deltas is huge, and if you being held behind the SC, your gap to the cars behind is being eroded very quickly, and this affects where you will emerge if you pit at the end of the lap.

 

And if you're leading the race and you're in the last corner when the SC is called, it will pick you up at the pit exit, people who were running behind you will pit, and they will then emerge from the pit lane and catch up to you before the end of the lap. So if you pit, you will fall way down the order. In fact, in that case, it's better to overtake the SC illegally because, as we found out in Valencia 2010, the penalty for doing so is rather small, and the gain is enormous.  What contribution is a set of rules that can, in certain relatively rare circumstances, incentivise overtaking the SC making to track safety?

 

Is that the race lewis was alongside the SC when it came out, he drove past instead of slowing down behind it? he got a drive thru and kept second place.  Whilst alonso was stuck behind it and ended up 7th or 8th or something.

 

I agree with you using that as an example but in 2010 remember was no delta's meaning the gap between SC pace and slowed down pace during SCs was bigger than it is now.  Also what seemed to help lewis in that race I think it took them a while to issue the penalty so he had managed to build up a gap.

 

If rosberg illegally overtook the SC today, he probably would have kept 1st place, but I am not confident he would have been able to build a gap big enough especially in those conditions to take a penalty to make it beneficial.  Not to mention lewis was alongside the SC in 2010, rosberg would have approached it from behind and overtook, much more blatant so probably more severe penalty.

 

 

[redreni]

Is that the race lewis was alongside the SC when it came out, he drove past instead of slowing down behind it? he got a drive thru and kept second place.  Whilst alonso was stuck behind it and ended up 7th or 8th or something.

 

I agree with you using that as an example but in 2010 remember was no delta's meaning the gap between SC pace and slowed down pace during SCs was bigger than it is now.  Also what seemed to help lewis in that race I think it took them a while to issue the penalty so he had managed to build up a gap.

 

If rosberg illegally overtook the SC today, he probably would have kept 1st place, but I am not confident he would have been able to build a gap big enough especially in those conditions to take a penalty to make it beneficial.  Not to mention lewis was alongside the SC in 2010, rosberg would have approached it from behind and overtook, much more blatant so probably more severe penalty.

 

The SC deltas were introduced in 2010. Alonso lost so much compared to Hamilton in Valencia 2010 because the SC was proceeding very slowly to "protect" the medical car. Which, in my view, and I'm sorry to rant, shows what a pretty pass we've come to when the Race Director doesn't trust F1 drivers, when they are constrained by the deltas and, therefore, not racing, to be responsible enough to go past the medical car without causing an accident. It's a big estate car with flashing lights on top. But then, even after the medical car had arrived at the scene of the Webber accident and the SC had led Alonso and the other drivers past the incident scene, the SC still failed to wave them by. So it was just luck of the draw, and the system hasn't changed or improved since then.

 

I understand the view that safety has to come first, but what we have is a set of procedures that does very little or nothing to make anybody any safer, as compared to a fairer system, and which had an impact on the outcome of the championship in 2010. And it has now had an impact on the 2014 championship as well (albeit a lot of people will see it as natural justice when Hamilton appeared to be the quicker of the two Mercedes drivers and had been forced to start from the pitlane through no fault of his own).

 

In the end, we can't go on allowing the SC to have such a massive distorting effect on races and championships when it doesn't need to. Alonso lost well over a minute to the leaders in Valencia 2010 owing to an arbitrary factor. Then in Nurburgring last year, Webber gained nearly two minutes on the race leader owing to a SC and SC wave-by procedure, in which Nico Rosberg (amongst others) was forced to allow Webber to come past, unlap himself, drive around and gain whole lap advantage, and then ended up getting passed by Webber shortly after the restart. And today Hamilton, for example, gained 34 seconds and four positions relative to the race leader as a result of the first SC period which, again, changed the outcome of the race in a way which just wouldn't have happened if F1 made the modest changes to its SC procedure, designed to minimise unfairness without adversely affecting safety, which I've suggested above.

 

Rosberg built the lead at a second a lap in the early stages. I agree that if he'd protected his track position by passing the SC and driving to the deltas on his in-lap, he could have easily built up a big enough gap to allow him to serve a pitstop penalty. So once again F1 shows that, with Whiting in charge, following the rules is a mug's game.

Edited by redreni, 27 July 2014 - 22:18.

[chrcol]

Well if you dont like it now you going to hate next year with its standing restarts.

 

I have a mixed view of safety cars.

 

Safety cars do mix things up, and its a bit of unpredictability that adds to the challenges of a race, in that respect I think thats a good thing.  What I dont like tho is safety cars been used as a deliberate tool to manipulate races, there has been past races where safety cars appeared to have been brought out to "spice up the race" not because they were needed, and in germany only last week it appeared to deliberatly not bring one out to allow the german driver to cruise home in the german race.

 

As things stand I am not in favour of standing restarts tho, these events add stress to engines, is liable to have more accidents and if we see a race where we have 2 or 3 SC one after the other due to nasty restarts I can see them scrapping it mid season.  How will these standing restarts be managed, will pitting be banned again and drivers just drive to the start straight and stop?  That hasnt really been explained.

 

I am pretty sure tho in that valencia race was no delta times, as the delta times were introduced because of that race. So wasd probably later in 2010 they got introduced.