Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 6 votes

How would today's top drivers have done as Schumacher's team-mate in the 90s and early 00s?


  • Please log in to reply
425 replies to this topic

#401 DavidHeath461

DavidHeath461
  • Member

  • 326 posts
  • Joined: May 14

Posted 19 August 2014 - 15:07

They were more scuppering about their opportunities than unreliable.

Yes... in a team managed by his manager, who was less than charitable to other drivers in the second car.


Wasn't Flavio the manager of trulli too?

Advertisement

#402 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 4,398 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 19 August 2014 - 15:15

Wasn't Flavio the manager of trulli too?

yeah.. but he really lacked determination, racecraft and aggressiveness.. The team had enough of him when gave up that podium to Rubens in France on the last lap.. They were really vocal about it and by then I think they had already signed Fisi for next year.



#403 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,548 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 19 August 2014 - 15:16

Yeah. People claim that Ferrari was 6th-7th best car that year, but even then it is worth considering that despite all the horrible start into the season Massa, who was a below top10 driver that year on performance, finished 7th in WDC, only below Alonso, Red Bulls, McLarens and a Lotus driver. And once he got rid of his issues, he was regular top 6 finisher in races in the second half of the year.

 

To be frank, the Ferrari was the slowest of the four fastest teams, Lotus, RBR, McLaren.

It wasn't the 6th fastest, but even Mercedes could outpace the Ferrari, but Ferrari was very good a tires and could mantain reasonable pace. Perahps I should have said Fred would have been world champion in the Lotus Renault that season, the way he drove.... I think so for sure.



#404 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,548 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 19 August 2014 - 15:18

yeah.. but he really lacked determination, racecraft and aggressiveness.. The team had enough of him when gave up that podium to Rubens in France on the last lap.. They were really vocal about it and by then I think they had already signed Fisi for next year.

 

Fisichella was worse than Jarno... Trulli never had a good car in his entire career. Fisichella had better cars than Jarno ever did, and to be fair, Fisichella never had a "wow" weekend like Jarno sometimes did in qualifying. My opinion is Jarno is way better than Fisichella.

 

Jarno in the 2005-2006 Renault, he would have poled those cars much more than Fisichella ever would have.

 

People talk about France 2004 and last lap.... Fisichella did it much worse.... China 2006, he let Michael Schumacher pass for the win, mind you....... Flav did nothing.......


Edited by George Costanza, 19 August 2014 - 15:20.


#405 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 3,433 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 19 August 2014 - 15:19

yeah.. but he really lacked determination, racecraft and aggressiveness.. The team had enough of him when gave up that podium to Rubens in France on the last lap.. They were really vocal about it and by then I think they had already signed Fisi for next year.

 

This doesn't make sense since Trulli was having his best season in F1 in 2004. You don't get fed up of a driver, who is generally performing well.



#406 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,548 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 19 August 2014 - 15:24

Maybe, the McLaren team and car were very unreliable

 

I cannot shake that Monaco 2012 would have been a breeze for Schumi in a R.B. 

 

Michael in the RBR would have won the championship. Michael in a Adrian Newey car? He would have been flying.



#407 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 4,398 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 19 August 2014 - 15:28

Fisichella was worse than Jarno... Trulli never had a good car in his entire career. Fisichella had better cars than Jarno ever did, and to be fair, Fisichella never had a "wow" weekend like Jarno sometimes did in qualifying. My opinion is Jarno is way better than Fisichella.

 

Jarno in the 2005-2006 Renault, he would have poled those cars much more than Fisichella ever would have.

 

People talk about France 2004 and last lap.... Fisichella did it much worse.... China 2006, he let Michael Schumacher pass for the win, mind you....... Flav did nothing.......

That is not my argument.. I think the team had data from both drivers to make a sound decision. It was not just Flavio, Symonds was also not impressed with Trulli.

One thing to consider is that  Button outpaced Trulli but he had a tougher time against Fisi.

Trulli was not a bad driver.. but he was definitely not top shelf.


Edited by discover23, 19 August 2014 - 15:29.


#408 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 3,433 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 19 August 2014 - 15:43

That is not my argument.. I think the team had data from both drivers to make a sound decision. It was not just Flavio, Symonds was also not impressed with Trulli.

One thing to consider is that  Button outpaced Trulli but he had a tougher time against Fisi.

Trulli was not a bad driver.. but he was definitely not top shelf.

 

One important thing to consider is that after 2001 Benetton/Renault actually replaced Fisichella with Trulli. And they kept Trulli and replaced Button with Alonso. So clearly they rated Trulli highly enough to hire him and keep in their team. Also Briatore had been Trulli's manager since at least 1997 if not before, so he knew him for a long time. Obviously it was the (personal) relationship, which went sour, as Trulli was sacked on the back of his best season, yet kept after previous seasons. If you analyze only 2004 in isolation, you may conclude this, but looking at the grand scheme of things, starting from early 2000s and before, things do not add up.


Edited by sopa, 19 August 2014 - 15:45.


#409 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 4,398 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 19 August 2014 - 16:04

I think that small details like that (France 04), can tell a lot about a driver and his character in the races. I sense that some people in this forum have a tendency to ignore how important being a true racer truly is and how much weight this adds when evaluating a driver.
This the reason why the Heidfields, Hulkenbers of the world get overlooked by top teams.. There is more to a race that is expected from a driver, than just try to be fast in clean air and keeping your nose clean, hoping that you don't run into other cars on the track after the start.

Edited by discover23, 19 August 2014 - 16:52.


#410 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,548 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 19 August 2014 - 16:57

I have no doubt Jarno would have done significantly better than Giancarlo in the 2005 and 2006 Renault cars.... He would have kept Fred honest. Unlike Giancarlo, who was lost from the 2nd race onward in 2005.


Edited by George Costanza, 20 August 2014 - 01:37.


#411 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 4,398 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 19 August 2014 - 17:04

The same thing was said about Fisi before 2005..

#412 DavidHeath461

DavidHeath461
  • Member

  • 326 posts
  • Joined: May 14

Posted 19 August 2014 - 17:53

The same thing was said about Fisi before 2005..


True:

http://forums.autosp...-except-flavio/

#413 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 219 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 20 August 2014 - 01:31

It made me think that Montoya's one-lap phenomenon was a bit like Hakkinen before him or Vettel recently, but it lasted shorter. At the time Montoya was clearly good at qualifying, but he lost a bit of his mojo, when the single-lap format was introduced from 2003 onwards, which didn't suit him that well.

Montoya's reputation was largely from those five or so poles in a row in 2002. I think over the whole season he was still fairly level with Ralf, except that when Ralf was ahead he wasn't normally on pole. I don't think Montoya was really ever a Hakkinen in qualifying.

#414 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 219 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 20 August 2014 - 01:35

A lot has been said about Lotus of 2012. And considering Raikkonen came back from a 2-year-hiatus and very clearly wasn't fully up to speed in the first half of the season, and his qualifying was never great, I am open to the idea that Lotus was a proper top car that year. Certainly in the first half of the year, because in the end their development slightly fell off. Also Lotus was very reliable as well.

Possibly you're right. I think Raikkonen was generally flattered by Grosjean's inconsistency, and that car had a lot more in it than the drivers let on. Whether it was champion material in Alonso's hands maybe, but I don't know. But if it was, then I'd also consider other drivers such as Hamilton as well.

#415 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,548 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 20 August 2014 - 01:36

Montoya's reputation was largely from those five or so poles in a row in 2002. I think over the whole season he was still fairly level with Ralf, except that when Ralf was ahead he wasn't normally on pole. I don't think Montoya was really ever a Hakkinen in qualifying.

 

JPM one lap speed was great at times; but he struggled vs Kimi in 2005, and Kimi made him look slow. If anything, Kimi had the Hakkinen in him in those days.



#416 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,548 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 20 August 2014 - 01:36

The same thing was said about Fisi before 2005..

 

I never brought that hype...



#417 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Member

  • 7,470 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 20 August 2014 - 07:10

Fisichella was worse than Jarno... Trulli never had a good car in his entire career. Fisichella had better cars than Jarno ever did, and to be fair, Fisichella never had a "wow" weekend like Jarno sometimes did in qualifying. My opinion is Jarno is way better than Fisichella.

 

Jarno in the 2005-2006 Renault, he would have poled those cars much more than Fisichella ever would have.

 

People talk about France 2004 and last lap.... Fisichella did it much worse.... China 2006, he let Michael Schumacher pass for the win, mind you....... Flav did nothing.......

 

Sure he did. Hockenheim and Spa 1997 are good examples. Let's not forget his pole in Austria 1998 either.

 

I don't think you can fault him at Spa 2009 either.

 

I don't think anyone can put any reasonable gap between Jarno and Fisi. Two sides of the same coin.



#418 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 3,433 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 21 August 2014 - 10:30

Montoya's reputation was largely from those five or so poles in a row in 2002. I think over the whole season he was still fairly level with Ralf, except that when Ralf was ahead he wasn't normally on pole. I don't think Montoya was really ever a Hakkinen in qualifying.

 

You may be right. I forgot to check the full-season qualifying battle with Ralf, but I do remember Ralf qualified ahead of JPM a fair few times too. On the back of those poles JPM was often called "quali-master" back then though - perhaps it was blown out of proportion.



#419 garagetinkerer

garagetinkerer
  • Member

  • 2,731 posts
  • Joined: October 13

Posted 21 August 2014 - 16:47

You may be right. I forgot to check the full-season qualifying battle with Ralf, but I do remember Ralf qualified ahead of JPM a fair few times too. On the back of those poles JPM was often called "quali-master" back then though - perhaps it was blown out of proportion.

Actually, one should ask what Sir Frank thinks of Ralf...



Advertisement

#420 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 4,398 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 21 August 2014 - 16:59

Montoya said recently that Ralf was his fastest teammate in F1.  I guess after racing with him for 4 consecutive years, he was able to conclude that even when he knew that he had extracted the most out of the car, Ralf was still very hard to beat when he had everything dialed in.


Edited by discover23, 21 August 2014 - 17:03.


#421 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,548 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 21 August 2014 - 17:23

It's a shame Ralf was never on it often. When he was like for his wins in 2001 and 2003, he could beat anyone, even his brother in a straight fight. Imola 2001 and Canada 2001 are good examples how Ralf was on it.

 

Imola 2003 was a thrilling fight between Michael and Ralf and obviously very emotional one too due to their mother's passing.


Edited by George Costanza, 21 August 2014 - 17:29.


#422 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 219 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 21 August 2014 - 20:17

JPM one lap speed was great at times; but he struggled vs Kimi in 2005, and Kimi made him look slow. If anything, Kimi had the Hakkinen in him in those days.

I thought the same at the time. I don't know if it was Michelin v Pirelli tyres or what, but Kimi seemed to change after he left McLaren and never seemed the out-and-out fast driver that he once was. Although he won the championship in 2007, I don't think it was his best year, and I don't think he's been massively fast since his comeback either, even at Lotus. So while Kimi was at McLaren, I probably rated him higher overall than Hakkinen because of Hakkinen's inconsistency, but from 2007 onwards, he hasn't been the same driver. Also, the Kimi v Alonso thread we have on here sometimes makes me smile. To me there's been no Kimi v Alonso question since about 2007.

#423 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,548 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 21 August 2014 - 21:27

I thought the same at the time. I don't know if it was Michelin v Pirelli tyres or what, but Kimi seemed to change after he left McLaren and never seemed the out-and-out fast driver that he once was. Although he won the championship in 2007, I don't think it was his best year, and I don't think he's been massively fast since his comeback either, even at Lotus. So while Kimi was at McLaren, I probably rated him higher overall than Hakkinen because of Hakkinen's inconsistency, but from 2007 onwards, he hasn't been the same driver. Also, the Kimi v Alonso thread we have on here sometimes makes me smile. To me there's been no Kimi v Alonso question since about 2007.

 

Mika vs Kimi is a good one, but Mika in 2000 was amazing given he took on Michael Schumacher and nearly beat him. Kimi's 2005 season was like Mika in 2000. But I like Mika a little bit better. 1998 season it was clear who the better driver was, Michael Schumacher, but Mika beat him in the last two races.

In 2000, I thought Mika would actually win again, who can forget the qualifying duels? I think Mika's 1999 season is like Kimi's 2008. He had a hard time, and was lucky he won that title. But if they were both in form, Mika would beat him on speed and I think, race craft. Had Mika lasted the race in USA in 2000, it would have went to Sepang and who knows what would have happened there.... But Michael was on fire that weekend, but he obviously was pressure-free given he won the championship in Japan.

 

I agree, Kimi best driving season was 2005. I would debate that 2007, he was pretty good, but he got lucky in the end, Chinese GP, where Lewis botched that turn? 

Kimi was great in 2003, too. 2003 season is underrated by Kimi.

 

Fred drove great in 2005, but Kimi was the better driver that season. The difference is the car and how it would last...

 

Now? 2005 Kimi isn't there.... Wish he was, an in form Kimi would beat anyone, even Fred. Sort of like Mika when he was on it. Not even Michael Schumacher could beat him. Imola 2000 pole was one of the greatest pole laps I have ever seen, he was SLOWER in the first two sectors, yet he got the pole in the last turn over Michael.... Incredible stuff. Suzuka 2000 was the same thing, except Schu got it right that time.

 

I feel current F1 lacks that pure speed.....


Edited by George Costanza, 21 August 2014 - 21:41.


#424 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 3,221 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 21 August 2014 - 23:16

It literally lacks the speed. If we do a cross comparison of lap times from 2000 to 2014 on the same tracks the older cars are quicker.

#425 Spillage

Spillage
  • Member

  • 1,055 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 22 August 2014 - 01:29

Mika vs Kimi is a good one, but Mika in 2000 was amazing given he took on Michael Schumacher and nearly beat him. Kimi's 2005 season was like Mika in 2000. But I like Mika a little bit better. 1998 season it was clear who the better driver was, Michael Schumacher, but Mika beat him in the last two races.

In 2000, I thought Mika would actually win again, who can forget the qualifying duels? I think Mika's 1999 season is like Kimi's 2008. He had a hard time, and was lucky he won that title. But if they were both in form, Mika would beat him on speed and I think, race craft. Had Mika lasted the race in USA in 2000, it would have went to Sepang and who knows what would have happened there.... But Michael was on fire that weekend, but he obviously was pressure-free given he won the championship in Japan.

 

I agree, Kimi best driving season was 2005. I would debate that 2007, he was pretty good, but he got lucky in the end, Chinese GP, where Lewis botched that turn? 

Kimi was great in 2003, too. 2003 season is underrated by Kimi.

 

Fred drove great in 2005, but Kimi was the better driver that season. The difference is the car and how it would last...

 

Now? 2005 Kimi isn't there.... Wish he was, an in form Kimi would beat anyone, even Fred. Sort of like Mika when he was on it. Not even Michael Schumacher could beat him. Imola 2000 pole was one of the greatest pole laps I have ever seen, he was SLOWER in the first two sectors, yet he got the pole in the last turn over Michael.... Incredible stuff. Suzuka 2000 was the same thing, except Schu got it right that time.

 

I feel current F1 lacks that pure speed.....

I don't know if it's the Finnish blood, but if you want two guys who were absolutely faultless under pressure it would be Raikkonen and Hakkinen. Hakkinen seemed to thrive on it - his two fantastic drives in the final two races of 1998 were worthy of a champion irrespective of Schumacher's skill. Suzuka 2000 was another remarkable race, Schumacher and Hakkinen separated by a couple of seconds, both well over a minute clear of their respective teammates. I really think Hakkinen would be a match for anybody on the current grid with the exception of Alonso. It would have been very interesting to hear how Schumacher felt the two compared. Hopefully one day we'll see Schumacher fit and well enough again to recount these tales and others.


Edited by Spillage, 22 August 2014 - 01:35.


#426 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,548 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 22 August 2014 - 01:38

I don't know if it's the Finnish blood, but if you want two guys who were absolutely faultless under pressure it would be Raikkonen and Hakkinen. Hakkinen seemed to thrive on it - his two fantastic drives in the final two races of 1998 were worthy of a champion irrespective of Schumacher's skill. Suzuka 2000 was another remarkable race, Schumacher and Hakkinen separated by a couple of seconds, both well over a minute clear of their respective teammates. I really think Hakkinen would be a match for anybody on the current grid with the exception of Alonso. It would have been very interesting to hear how Schumacher felt the two compared. Hopefully one day we'll see Schumacher fit and well enough again to recount these tales and others.

 

I agree, except I think Mika's speed would be a bit much for Fred to handle someitmes.