45 replies to this topic

[evo]

I'm going to keep this short but would like to hear your thoughts.

 

JEV in the past 2.5 years have largely been a match to F1's newest star Ricciardo, and is still having the edge over newcomer Kvyat.

 

Qualifying used to be his Achilles heel but this has largely been overturned this season.

 

 

His driving ability in intermittent and to a degree with full wet weather have been generally outstanding, even beating Ricciardo on several occasions.

People would in the past would've referred to him as one of those 'rain masters' and therefore, one of the drivers who would stand above others.

 

The reason he wasn't considered for the RBR ride was that he had some speed issues but also 9 GPs less experience.

Sainz Jr is now a serious threat to his race seat.

 

How has it come to this? Is it attitude? Is it talent better used in a different formula, perhaps a different era? Is his style of driving contributing to the car failures he had this year? What are we overlooking when assessing JEV's performances?

 

Is there also a stigma in general regarding STR drivers? Liuzzi and to a degree Klein have driven for other teams but that's it.

Edited by evo, 23 July 2014 - 05:55.

[Thomas99]

JEV is a damn good driver. But his 'beating' of Ricciardo was always exaggerated. Also he never had Ricciardo's strength being qualifying. Ricciardo was constantly ahead in qualifying often by large margins. Something that matters a lot in top teams. I think Daniel has stepped it up a notch this year too, last year his race pace left something to be desired but this year he looks even stronger over race distance than he does over one lap.

 

Its hard to say where I rank JEV in the scheme of things. He's still beating Kvyat on points, but Kvyat is in his first year of the sport. Considering Ricciardo's pace relative to Vettel maybe him qualifying behind wasn't such a big deal after all.

[Brandz07]

Every time I look at the times Kvyat seems to be ahead of JEV so I'm surprised he has more points. Kvyat has a lot more potential.

[Thomas99]

Every time I look at the times Kvyat seems to be ahead of JEV so I'm surprised he has more points. Kvyat has a lot more potential.

Reminds me of JEV and Riccardo in 2012

[Gareth]

Admittedly from the small sample size of "times an STR are on camera", Kvyat's seemed the more impressive.

 

Is that because I'm missing something by not following close enough, or is it one of those times where with a team that will only sneak lower points the table doesn't tell the full story?

[noikeee]

JEV's a fine driver, his problem is that Red Bull/Toro Rosso have also signed up a list of other fine drivers who are just marginally better than him.

 

He's not a Liuzzi/Klien, the proof is in how long Red Bull have been sticking with him, with rumours even that Sainz could go to a 5th seat in F1 in a Caterham, not to take his place. Red Bull ditched those drivers fairly brutally, same as with Alguersuari. I believe they rate him a little higher, however Vettel's a 4 time champ, Ricciardo was marginally ahead of him, and Kvyat's coming too close to him at an insanely young age and little experience. The circumstances of internal competition make it impossible for him to progress.

 

I'd like to see him eventually continue his career in a midfield team, but it's hard to see who out of the midfielders could hire a driver on ability not cash these days.

Edited by noikeee, 23 July 2014 - 08:51.

[MrMan]

My thoughts are that it's a problem with the Red Bull Driver program in that he really can't go anywhere else. Vettel and Ricciardo aren't going anywhere and there isn't a significant turnover in drivers in the top team that allows younger drivers to progress to the top rank.

 

If he was ever offered a seat at Williams/Force India/Lotus e.t.c. if he took that seat would Red Bull shun him? I'd guess they would, it's not like they don't have other drivers who could replace him.

[Nemo1965]

My thoughts are that it's a problem with the Red Bull Driver program in that he really can't go anywhere else. Vettel and Ricciardo aren't going anywhere and there isn't a significant turnover in drivers in the top team that allows younger drivers to progress to the top rank.

 

If he was ever offered a seat at Williams/Force India/Lotus e.t.c. if he took that seat would Red Bull shun him? I'd guess they would, it's not like they don't have other drivers who could replace him.

 

That is an interesting observation. I applaud Red Bull for giving so many drivers a chance but the only way seems up... or out. While drivers that were 'out' of McLaren or Williams (for example) could still have nice careers...

Edited by Nemo1965, 23 July 2014 - 09:31.

[chipmcdonald]

Kyvat seems to have an extra 10% up his sleeve, JEV seems more of the "solid performer" variety - but the tv exposure of both IMO makes it impossible to judge having not watched them at the track.

[TomNokoe]

Kvyat was 19 when he started the season. Barely any testing or experience in anything like an F1 car. When he jumped in a TR during wet practice in Brazil last year and was instantly on the pace, you knew he was the real deal. Made Q3 the last 3 GPs. Made Q3 in his first ever (damp!) quali, as matter of fact. The kid is special. If Vergne gets another year, which I doubt, Kyvat will tear him to pieces.

[krapmeister]

JEV in the past 2.5 years was occassionaly a match to F1's newest star Ricciardo

Fixed.

[fZero]

I think JEV's only problem is there is only 2 seats to move to, and they're both taken by Vettel and Ricciardo. Unless RBR allow JEV to race with another team next year, I think he will be out of a seat. Kvyat seems to be quite the rough diamond.

 

Alonso is the bottle neck isn't he? Once he retires, Vettel should go to Ferrari as it's his dream I believe, only then will there be a spot for a RBR Jr to move into.

[Spillage]

I'm not sure JEV is beating Kvyat. Kvyat seems to have the edge in qualifying. Reliability is really skewing the results at Toro Rosso.

 

Truth is though, this is a bad time to be an RB development driver. The senior team has a 4xWDC and an outstanding new talent, both well under the age of 30. Even if you do get into F1, where's the next opening going to come from?

Edited by Spillage, 23 July 2014 - 13:02.

[KavB]

He's been doing a decent job this year but also been very unlucky. He will probably be the best TR reject once he is booted. There's a problem with the junior programme in that a driver will have to be with Toro Rosso at the right time in order to succeed. I think if Vergne and Ricciardo were in the Toro Rosso from 2009 to 2011 instead of Buemi and Alguesuari, they would have been dropped for the latter two in order to give them a chance. This is simply because Red Bull did not have a vacant seat for the near future. You either get promoted or you get dropped, no driver will stay for too long at TR. Unfortunately as Ricciardo and Vettel will most likely be at Red Bull for years to come, it is unlikely that even Kyvat will still be a part of the programme in a few years.

[goingthedistance]

JEV was never as good as many people seemed to believe. He got demolished by RIC last year in quali and the races.

I don't think he will last much longer in F1.

[Jimisgod]

Can't be worse than Sutil who has been around forever.

[Andrew Hope]

The curious case of not quite as good as Buemi, Alguersuari, Ricciardo or Kvyat.

 

Or Bourdais...

[A.Fant]

Can't be worse than Sutil who has been around forever.

Sutil is the Andrea De Cesaris of the 21st century. Pretty fast, brings some sponsors, and constantly involved in incidents.

 

He isn't as bad as De Cesaris in the crash department, but still the worst on the grid. Yes, a lot worse than Maldonado.

[Jimisgod]

The curious case of not quite as good as Buemi, Alguersuari, Ricciardo or Kvyat.

Or Bourdais...

He's better than 3 of those guys. Alguersuari might have been better but he vaporized into thin air after he was dropped.

[sopa]

Vergne let his head drop in the second half of 2013. Before that he was closish to Ricciardo, but got properly hammered in the second half. Vergne's qualifying has always been his weakness - against Ricciardo and also now against Kvyat. The current Toro Rosso is a good car, especially in Q trim. I have seen Kvyat qualifying within a few tenths of Red Bulls on several circuits! And Kvyat is a regular Q3 threat at tender age of 19/20. Vergne doesn't seem to struggle in Q as much as last year, but partly due to decent car. But it is correct that Vergne is a bit better in race trim than qualifying and particularly good in the wet.

 

Overall I think I have to praise the results of RB driver development program. For many years they were criticized - so much money, so little results with many ditched drivers. But by now they have got the system working properly and good drivers are coming up after another. Two of them in the Red Bull A team, Kvyat coming up well, Alguersuari was decent as well I believe. Problem for Vergne is that while he is sort of an okayish midfielder (perhaps not too far from the level of Sutil), it is not quite enough for the very high standard of Red Bull now.

 

There has also been the question whether Red Bull drivers are any good on the whole, because they are "brought up in isolation" and do not have exact match-ups against the rest of the field. I think they are pretty good in the grand scheme of things as well. Also highlighted by the fact that they are usually beating the rest of the field in feeder series, be it F3 or WSR.

[Hanzo]

I can not wait to see what Carlos Sainz jr. can do in a F1 car. Sorry for JEV, but there are plenty of examples of drivers in his same situation. Many of them ex Toro Rosso drivers. 

Now, in the very very unlikely situation of Vettel going to Mclaren or Mercedes soon...

Edited by Hanzo, 23 July 2014 - 17:53.

[DutchQuicksilver]

He's a good driver which he's proven in junior categories. Anyone saying he got demolished by Ricciardo is just blind. Ricciardo only really beat him, because he's so much better at qualifying. In wet races Vergne clearly has the advantage.

 

Funny by the way, last year I was one of the few who said Vergne was a good driver. He got beaten by Ricciardo, everybody said he was crap. Now Ricciardo is showing how fast he is, and suddenly everyone says Vergne is a good driver.

[Risil]

That is an interesting observation. I applaud Red Bull for giving so many drivers a chance but the only way seems up... or out. While drivers that were 'out' of McLaren or Williams (for example) could still have nice careers...

 

Red Bull put Speed in their NASCAR team, Liuzzi raced for another F1 team, Buemi's helping vanquish everyone in the WEC, and Bourdais's post-F1 CV takes in Indycar, Le Mans and A1 Football GP. Klien and Alguersuari appeared to adopt an F1-or-nothing approach which isn't helpful when your results in F1 have not been stellar.

 

Da Costa drives in DTM and Hartley gets paid to drive Porsche prototypes. I'm not sure I understand the Red Bull Curse. I suspect a lot of it comes down to Alguersuari's failure to drive anything post Toro Rosso, as he's very popular round here for some reason.

 

In Ricciardo's case it's weird how the occasional sixth and seventh for Toro Rosso translates to Vettel-beater when he's put in a better car. Sort of throws the whole past performance predicts future results thing into question.

Edited by Risil, 23 July 2014 - 20:34.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I concur, I'm not sure anyone has been worse off because Red Bull came along.

 

Vergne seems like he's doing a good enough job but with the Red Bull Juniors assembly line he has to move on eventually. But even then it's better than the alternatives. Which most likely would have been bouncing around GP3/WSR and then experiencing the thrill of winning an ELMS race.

[Risil]

I'm going to hold you to that when you and Hope become millionaires off a tenderloin-flavoured energy drink and you buy your way into GTE-Am.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Screw that. I'm spending 1/10th the money and doing Pirelli World Challenge with a GT3 car.

[Exb]

I suspect a lot of it comes down to Alguersuari's failure to drive anything post Toro Rosso, as he's very popular round here for some reason.

That is soon change as well 

[sibakruom]

That is an interesting observation. I applaud Red Bull for giving so many drivers a chance but the only way seems up... or out. While drivers that were 'out' of McLaren or Williams (for example) could still have nice careers...

 

As harsh as it seems, I'd consider that the driver's fault, not Red Bull's. The Red Bull program look after its own interest first, and this is normal. Looking after the driver's interest, building up connections and even finding personal sponsors if needed, is the driver's job (or, more likely, their manager's).

 

With the situation at Red Bull right now, JEV's priority should be searching for a seat in another team before he get pushed out by one of the younger driver. Sure, Red Bull may decide to shun him if he go elsewhere, but it would simply mean they didn't consider him worthy in the first place.

[Thomas99]

As harsh as it seems, I'd consider that the driver's fault, not Red Bull's. The Red Bull program look after its own interest first, and this is normal. Looking after the driver's interest, building up connections and even finding personal sponsors if needed, is the driver's job (or, more likely, their manager's).

e.

I guarantee you neither Ricciardo not Vettel would have any trouble finding seats at a top team. So the program clearly works

[Zippel]

F1 is very bizzare at times with who is considered a decent talent and who is not. Vergne is sitting in the same place as what Heidfeld did in 2003. Heidfeld beat Raikkenon in 2001 and yet by the end of 2003, Kimi had competed for a championship in an inferior car and was looked at as a huge talent while Heidfeld would have been out of F1 had it not been for the last minute save from Jordan. Why? It seemed to be based on connections, marketing, and commercial appeal. At the moment, Ricciardo is in the lime light with his beating Vettel while Kvyat is perceived to have more potential due to his youth and a few decent performances. Vergne, like Heidfeld before him, has become old news, even though his comparison with other drivers would suggest he would be very good behind the wheel of a decent car.  

[Jimisgod]

In Ricciardo's case it's weird how the occasional sixth and seventh for Toro Rosso translates to Vettel-beater when he's put in a better car. Sort of throws the whole past performance predicts future results thing into question.

It shows the stratification of the cars today. No matter how good a midfield driver is they have almost no hope in hell of beating the best cars of the day without extenuating circumstances. The 2012 car was pretty bad anyway and was clearly at a deficit to all but Marussia, HRT and Caterham.

In recent years the good cars simply scythe through the field when they start at the rear: Vettel at Abu Dhabi in '12, Hamilton several times this year.

And his potential stand out result - Britain '13 - was ruined by unreliablility. He had podium speed that day.

[Brother Fox]

I'm going to hold you to that when you and Hope become millionaires off a [bold]tenderloin-flavoured energy drink [\bold] and you buy your way into GTE-Am.

I have only one question - Do you ship to Australia?

Edited by Brother Fox, 24 July 2014 - 03:17.

[Brother Fox]

What about something similar to what Williams did with Button back in the day (if memory serves me right)

Loan him out, or pay them to take him, to a quality mid field team (say FI or Williams) with an option to bring him back.
Gets another Red Bull logo helmet on the grid, and gives you that wonderful opportunity to pull the rug from under a rival if he shows anything special.
And time to see what Vettel does after 2015 or whenever, as he was a fair match for Ricciardo and that's working out quite well. If Seb moves on, he's experienced enough to step into the big boys cars.

[Thomas99]

What about something similar to what Williams did with Button back in the day (if memory serves me right)

Loan him out, or pay them to take him, to a quality mid field team (say FI or Williams) with an option to bring him back.
Gets another Red Bull logo helmet on the grid, and gives you that wonderful opportunity to pull the rug from under a rival if he shows anything special.
And time to see what Vettel does after 2015 or whenever, as he was a fair match for Ricciardo and that's working out quite well. If Seb moves on, he's experienced enough to step into the big boys cars.

 

Would Williams want a driver on the Red Bull pay roll when they're trying to beat RBR?

[aguri]

Drivers on the grid that JEV is probably better than: Ericson, Kobayashi, Chilton, Maldonado, Gutierrez, Sutil. 

 

TBH I'd be surprised if any of the above list are still on the grid in 2016 on account of an exciting crop of junior drivers coming through (Palmer, Nasr, Ocon, Verstappen, Sainz, Lynn etc.).

[teejay]

Meh.

 

Exactly what I think of JEV in F1.

 

There is nothing to set him apart of above many others.

[HoldenRT]

It's hard to make any comment about him because he seems to be one of the more anonymous drivers on the grid where very little stands out.  It's hard to notice him or remember many stand out performances.  Barely even notice he is there most of the time.

[Thomas99]

Drivers on the grid that JEV is probably better than: Ericson, Kobayashi, Chilton, Maldonado, Gutierrez, Sutil. 

 

TBH I'd be surprised if any of the above list are still on the grid in 2016 on account of an exciting crop of junior drivers coming through (Palmer, Nasr, Ocon, Verstappen, Sainz, Lynn etc.).

He was too close to Ricciardo in race pace for people to write him off completely. It wouldn't surprise me if he's better than drivers like Perez and Massa.

 

For all we know he could be beating Vettel this year.

[GhostR]

I'm going to keep this short but would like to hear your thoughts.

 

JEV in the past 2.5 years have largely been a match to F1's newest star Ricciardo, and is still having the edge over newcomer Kvyat.

 

Qualifying used to be his Achilles heel but this has largely been overturned this season.

 

 

His driving ability in intermittent and to a degree with full wet weather have been generally outstanding, even beating Ricciardo on several occasions.

People would in the past would've referred to him as one of those 'rain masters' and therefore, one of the drivers who would stand above others.

 

The reason he wasn't considered for the RBR ride was that he had some speed issues but also 9 GPs less experience.

Sainz Jr is now a serious threat to his race seat.

 

How has it come to this? Is it attitude? Is it talent better used in a different formula, perhaps a different era? Is his style of driving contributing to the car failures he had this year? What are we overlooking when assessing JEV's performances?

 

Is there also a stigma in general regarding STR drivers? Liuzzi and to a degree Klein have driven for other teams but that's it.

 

JEV more or less matched Ricciardo through the first half of 2012, and then again for a couple of races early in 2013. By the end of 2013 the gap was a gulf. Whatever the cause of that gulf happening (many cite demotivation having been overlooked for the RBR ride), the very fact that it happened undermined his previous reputation as a potential star.

 

Top teams don't want drivers who are brilliant at times, average a lot, and rubbish frequently enough for it to be identified as a dip in form. And that's what JEV was last year. Mostly average, occasionally brilliant, and just a bit rubbish for the season ending races. (Incidentally, I think that's why Button's position at McLaren for next year isn't assured yet - he can be brilliant at times, pretty good most of the time, but becomes mediocre if the car isn't balanced).

 

Going back to Ricciardo and JEV. I almost feel like where these two have ended up now is illustrated brilliantly by the very first race they ran in F1 as team mates. They were closely matched through the 2012 Aussie race. JEV managed to get the upper hand briefly, only for Dan to steal the points paying position with some opportunistic passes on the final lap. Dan that day showed what we've seen more of many times since (and a brilliant demonstration of during the German GP) - a desire to fight to the end, and an ability to translate that desire onto the track with clean and effective racing. Dan's gone on to more and more impressive things ever since. JEV, on the other hand, let it all slip away from him at the end of that race - and has repeated that trend since, with the second half of 2013 being a grand scale disaster for him.

[Miggeex]

Also PR wise Ricciardo must've been much more easier option than JEV. Since Webber was leaving, Ricciardo was going to be the only Australian in F1. And the team he'd get into, would get the attention from Australia.

 

But yeah JEV looks like a solid performer even though he's not getting too much attention. That counts for top teams when they're picking drivers. That's the thing with the young-driver programs that only very few gets all the way to the top :/ And if you happen to have really equal guy with you fighting for the main-team seat, then other stuff starts to matter more and makes the difference.

[Thomas99]

Also PR wise Ricciardo must've been much more easier option than JEV. Since Webber was leaving, Ricciardo was going to be the only Australian in F1. And the team he'd get into, would get the attention from Australia.

 

But yeah JEV looks like a solid performer even though he's not getting too much attention. That counts for top teams when they're picking drivers. That's the thing with the young-driver programs that only very few gets all the way to the top :/ And if you happen to have really equal guy with you fighting for the main-team seat, then other stuff starts to matter more and makes the difference.

He seems to be likable by the entire F1 population too. I was quite skeptical to begin with of him but as a non Australian hes won me over.

[GoGro]

To be honest with JEV, He has been deprived of brilliant results because of an unreliable car. Monaco this year is the typical example. He was fighting fot the top 6, he ended in the pits.

[sibakruom]

I guarantee you neither Ricciardo not Vettel would have any trouble finding seats at a top team. So the program clearly works

 

I never said it didn't.
The program's aim is finding top drivers for Red Bull, and it's clearly been successful. However, securing the motorsport career of each driver that joins it is not its goal, nor should it be. Ricciardo secured his career himself by being given a big opportunity with his Red Bull seat and making the most of it, and Vettel pretty much secured his after Monza 2008.

But once the Red Bull program gives a driver a chance at Toro Rosso, their objective shouldn't be driving there until there's an opening at Red Bull. They should also actively try to create other opportunities for themselves, even if this means leaving for a mid-field team on their own. By staying at Toro Rosso, they remain entirely dependant on Red Bull's decisions, and it's not a good position to be in.
 

[Jimisgod]

I figured he'd go Lotus in 2015, but they chose Crashtor Smashdonaldo.

I think he'd be a useful midfielder, but he'll probably only scrape a backmarker role in one of the 2 new teams or the 2 typically bad ones.

[JamesRaynor]

F1 is very bizzare at times with who is considered a decent talent and who is not. Vergne is sitting in the same place as what Heidfeld did in 2003. Heidfeld beat Raikkenon in 2001 and yet by the end of 2003, Kimi had competed for a championship in an inferior car and was looked at as a huge talent while Heidfeld would have been out of F1 had it not been for the last minute save from Jordan. Why? It seemed to be based on connections, marketing, and commercial appeal. At the moment, Ricciardo is in the lime light with his beating Vettel while Kvyat is perceived to have more potential due to his youth and a few decent performances. Vergne, like Heidfeld before him, has become old news, even though his comparison with other drivers would suggest he would be very good behind the wheel of a decent car.  

 

With Heidfeld being known to carry on like he does below, it is a miracle he had any F1 career at all.

 

[TheUltimateWorrier]

F1 is very bizzare at times with who is considered a decent talent and who is not. Vergne is sitting in the same place as what Heidfeld did in 2003. Heidfeld beat Raikkenon in 2001 and yet by the end of 2003, Kimi had competed for a championship in an inferior car and was looked at as a huge talent while Heidfeld would have been out of F1 had it not been for the last minute save from Jordan. Why? It seemed to be based on connections, marketing, and commercial appeal. At the moment, Ricciardo is in the lime light with his beating Vettel while Kvyat is perceived to have more potential due to his youth and a few decent performances. Vergne, like Heidfeld before him, has become old news, even though his comparison with other drivers would suggest he would be very good behind the wheel of a decent car.  

 

I think there are intangibles that teams see on a daily basis that us fans are not aware or privy to.  Like Ricciardo, he seems like a genuine, charismatic, all-round likeable young lad who already has gelled into the Red Bull team.  Would JEV have fit in the same? I'm sure personality and other attributes are considered for driver choices.