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All time greatest Grand Prix drives


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#1 ahw911

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 15:06

I noticed some spirited discussions on the 'Mathematical Model' thread regarding Schumacher's best race vs Senna's.

 

What about all time Best GP drives?

 

I've entitled it GP rather than F1 or WC to embrace pre-war races too.

 

Here are my thoughts on a top 10 in chronological order.

 

1935     Nuvolari      Nurburgring

1957     Fangio        Nurburgring

1961     Moss           Monaco

1961     Moss           Nurburgring

1963     Clark           Spa

1967     Clark           Monza

1968     Stewart        Nurburgring

1981     Villeneuve   Jarama

1985     Senna         Estoril

2008     Vettel           Monza
 

My thought process was to identify races where a driver had demolished the opposition.  In the case of Nuvolari, Moss, Villeneuve and Vettel a driver beat the others whilst driving a notably inferior car.  Clark (Spa) and Stewart both won in the wet by over 4 minutes Clark finishing around 14 km ahead of 2nd placed McClaren having lapped the entire field and then allowing McClaren to unlap himself just before the end.  This in a car which was jumping out of 5th gear forcing him to steer one-handed around the 5th gear corners at 150mph + whilst holding the gear lever in.  For Senna's first win in atrocious conditions he finished over a minute in front of Alboreto and at least a lap in front of everyone else.

 

Clark's Monza race and Fangio's were both incredible recovery drives after losing time in the pits.  Fangio said "I have never driven that quickly before in my life and I don't think I will ever be able to do it again".  Clark's was perhaps more remarkable recovering over a lap on the entire field at pre-chicane Monza where everyone slipstreamed each other and where, 5 years later, the gap from 1st to 4th was a massive 18/100 of a second with 5th a huge 43/100 further back.

 

I'm sure there will be plenty of other opinions and, hopefully, some good arguments!


Edited by ahw911, 23 July 2014 - 15:47.


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#2 ensign14

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 15:38

You've nicked most of mine.  ;)

 

One thing to note about JMF at the Ring was that he was doing a pitstop strategy, and Hawthorn/Collins were too busy chillaxing to note that Fangio was on a rip-snorter, so they threw away some seconds.  But what is amazing is there is footage at the end of the race, of Fangion being congratulated by the Maserati pits, and Hawthorn freewheels through in the foreground - beaming.  You'd think he'd've been mega-annoyed at losing what would have been his third GP victory, but he was delighted at having been in such a battle.

 

I suppose turnabout is fair play though; Hawthorn at Reims in 1953 is definitely right up there.  Nobody had beaten Ascari in a Ferrari for a year and a half, yet Hawthorn did it - and outfumbled Fangio at the death.  Reims was not the hardest circuit in terms of technique, which however made it harder in another respect; make one mistake and it's difficult to recover.  With Ascari and Gonzalez in the mix, Hawthorn took his chance and won.  Had it not been for his kidney problem I wonder how good he would have been.

 

Others of note:

 

1936, Eifelrennen, Rosemeyer.  A fog came down and slowed everyone down by a couple of minutes per lap.  Other than Rosemeyer, who drove as if fog was an illusion. 

 

1929, Monaco, Caracciola.  Rudolf in a bloody ginormous Mercedes SSK around those tidgy streets.  Lost four minutes just filling the thing up with fuel.  Lost the race by 2 minutes. 

 

1933, Monaco, Varzi.  Mano a mano with Nuvolari for the entire race until Nuvolari, beaten, murdered his engine. 

 

1921, France, Murphy.  One of the gutsiest drives.  Everything seemed to be punctured or broken, including Murphy himself after a practice crash.  The French were typically gracious in defeat, declaring Ballot to be the moral winner as the Duesy was a wreck.

 

And going further back, one of the most astonishing drives in history was Fernand Gabriel's run in the Mors at the 1903 Paris-Madrid, stopped at Bordeaux.  In those one-at-a-time starting days, he had no. 168, so had over a hundred cars ahead of him, on narrow, dusty roads; so bad that drivers could only find the route by following the tree-tops.  He had to pass 13 deaths as well as dozens of cars, and was the third to reach Bordeaux, averaging 60mph; you'd struggle to do that today.  It's even more astonishing as it was a total one-off; Gabriel's career lasted another 20 years and he never showed again what he did that day.



#3 PlatenGlass

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 15:50

I don't think Vettel's Monza win was in a notably inferior car. The Toro Rosso's were first and fourth on the grid. I'm not saying it was definitely the best, but the car clearly worked in those conditions on that track.

#4 Collombin

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 15:51

Moss Argentina 1958
Moss Portugal 1959
Rindt Monaco 1970
Prost Suzuka 1987
Brooks Nurburgring 1958

Stewart in the 1968 German GP was clearly awesome, but the margin was flattered a bit by Hill's problems (ie having to get out of his car to turn it round, and then bump start it!)

Edited by E.B., 23 July 2014 - 15:52.


#5 ahw911

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 15:54

You've nicked most of mine.   ;)

 

One thing to note about JMF at the Ring was that he was doing a pitstop strategy, and Hawthorn/Collins were too busy chillaxing to note that Fangio was on a rip-snorter, so they threw away some seconds.  But what is amazing is there is footage at the end of the race, of Fangion being congratulated by the Maserati pits, and Hawthorn freewheels through in the foreground - beaming.  You'd think he'd've been mega-annoyed at losing what would have been his third GP victory, but he was delighted at having been in such a battle.

 

I suppose turnabout is fair play though; Hawthorn at Reims in 1953 is definitely right up there.  Nobody had beaten Ascari in a Ferrari for a year and a half, yet Hawthorn did it - and outfumbled Fangio at the death.  Reims was not the hardest circuit in terms of technique, which however made it harder in another respect; make one mistake and it's difficult to recover.  With Ascari and Gonzalez in the mix, Hawthorn took his chance and won.  Had it not been for his kidney problem I wonder how good he would have been.

 

Others of note:

 

1936, Eifelrennen, Rosemeyer.  A fog came down and slowed everyone down by a couple of minutes per lap.  Other than Rosemeyer, who drove as if fog was an illusion. 

 

1929, Monaco, Caracciola.  Rudolf in a bloody ginormous Mercedes SSK around those tidgy streets.  Lost four minutes just filling the thing up with fuel.  Lost the race by 2 minutes. 

 

1933, Monaco, Varzi.  Mano a mano with Nuvolari for the entire race until Nuvolari, beaten, murdered his engine. 

 

1921, France, Murphy.  One of the gutsiest drives.  Everything seemed to be punctured or broken, including Murphy himself after a practice crash.  The French were typically gracious in defeat, declaring Ballot to be the moral winner as the Duesy was a wreck.

 

And going further back, one of the most astonishing drives in history was Fernand Gabriel's run in the Mors at the 1903 Paris-Madrid, stopped at Bordeaux.  In those one-at-a-time starting days, he had no. 168, so had over a hundred cars ahead of him, on narrow, dusty roads; so bad that drivers could only find the route by following the tree-tops.  He had to pass 13 deaths as well as dozens of cars, and was the third to reach Bordeaux, averaging 60mph; you'd struggle to do that today.  It's even more astonishing as it was a total one-off; Gabriel's career lasted another 20 years and he never showed again what he did that day.

 

I've only joined this forum in the last couple of days but knew that you'd be the first to reply!

 

I particularly included pre 1950 stuff to see what gems you'd come up with.



#6 911

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 15:54

1993 European GP - The McLaren was no match for the Williams in the dry, but the rain helped Senna produce one of his best drives, if not the best drive of his career.



#7 ahw911

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 15:56

Moss Argentina 1958
Moss Portugal 1959
Rindt Monaco 1970
Prost Suzuka 1987
Brooks Nurburgring 1958

Stewart in the 1968 German GP was clearly awesome, but the margin was flattered a bit by Hill's problems (ie having to get out of his car to turn it round, and then bump start it!)

 

Brooks Nurburgring '58 almost made it onto my list in place of Vettel - I just felt that I had to have something reasonably current but, then again, maybe not.



#8 911

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 15:57

Another one I would add to the list is Damon Hill's drive in the Arrows in Hungary, 1997.  I'm not a big fan of DH, but I was really rooting for him that day to win, and he nearly did...



#9 ahw911

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 15:58

1993 European GP - The McLaren was no match for the Williams in the dry, but the rain helped Senna produce one of his best drives, if not the best drive of his career.

 

Although Senna himself thought Estoril '85 was a better drive.  The '93 McClaren had traction control.



#10 BobbyRicky

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 15:59

Since i didnt follow F1 in the 30'ies, im gonna pick one race from recent memory:

Kimi, Suzuka 2005.



#11 TomNokoe

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:02

Hamilton Fuji 2007. His first ever F1 race in full wet conditions.

#12 ApexMouse

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:03

omg like every lewis race yay



#13 CoolBreeze

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:05

Spa 1998. Hungary 1997. Spain 1996. Malaysia 2001. M Schumacher



#14 911

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:10

Although Senna himself thought Estoril '85 was a better drive.  The '93 McClaren had traction control.

 

Weren't you asking for an opinion?



#15 7MGTEsup

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:11

1993 European GP - The McLaren was no match for the Williams in the dry, but the rain helped Senna produce one of his best drives, if not the best drive of his career.

 

I'm not sure why everyone raves so much about Donnington 93? Prost was never much good in the wet and Hill wasn't that great either. Even Senna himself said it was easy because of traction control. It was an impressive first lap but I think Australia 89 was more impressive being 9 seconds in the lead after the first lap. Also Monza 87 was a very impressive drive trying to do the race on one set of tyres he made a mistake and went off at parabolica letting Piquet through he spent the last few laps chasing Piquet down and set the fastest lap on lap 49 (remember these tyres were 49 laps old) he didn't win but it was very impressive.



#16 Andrew Hope

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:12

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#17 ahw911

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:12

Weren't you asking for an opinion?

 

Absolutely :)



#18 Kristian

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:17

Of my era, Schumacher in Hungary 1998 was just astounding. 



#19 ensign14

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:25

I'm not sure why everyone raves so much about Donnington 93? Prost was never much good in the wet and Hill wasn't that great either.

 

Prost was extremely good in the wet when it was worth the candle - Monaco 1984 refers.  And Hill?  Japan 1994, racing a ghost, worthy of inclusion in the list.

 

Mansell, Hungary 1989.  Nobody thought you could win there from below 1st on the grid.  Snookered Senna to take the lead - something hardly anyone ever managed in any formula...

 

Of nearly forgotten drives, Ghinzani, Dallas 1984.  Brutal street circuit that was breaking up throughout the race and sending the great and good into the barriers.  Even more brutal heat from the fires of Gehenna, something like 130 degrees F temps.  Keke was smart and invested in a cooling balaclava, and won.  Piercarlo Ghinzani was a few weeks removed from a Lauda-like inferno that crisped his Osella and nearly took him; even that weekend he was still peeling dead skin away from his hands, when he thought nobody was watching.  And driving a pig of a car with a sow of an engine.  Prost crashed, Lauda crashed, PCG didn't, and scored the only bona fide points Osella ever scored in a decade of potless, hopeless toil.  Chapeau,  Piercarlo.



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#20 KavB

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:31

I can't really say for the really old races but off the top of my head from the past ten years I would say:

 

Kimi and Alonso - Suzuka 05

Alonso - Hungary 06

Hamilton - Silverstone 08 (Although Kimi was matching his pace until that blunder)

Raikkonen - Belgium 09. I know this will cause controversy because of KERS and the start. But I chose this simply because he dragged an average car to victory without having to overtake through the pits via a better strategy. He also made it look easy to hold onto the lead. It's staggering that he was expected to win by all the pundits even though he started 6th and was in a car which hadn't won all season. 



#21 scheivlak

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:32

Hamilton Fuji 2007. His first ever F1 race in full wet conditions.

I thought the 2007 European GP at the N'ring was also full wet for a while  :D



#22 scheivlak

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:34

Moss Argentina 1958
Moss Portugal 1959
Rindt Monaco 1970
Prost Suzuka 1987
Brooks Nurburgring 1958

Stewart in the 1968 German GP was clearly awesome, but the margin was flattered a bit by Hill's problems (ie having to get out of his car to turn it round, and then bump start it!)

What about the margin to 18 other competitiors?



#23 Collombin

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:34

Of nearly forgotten drives, Ghinzani, Dallas 1984.  Brutal street circuit that was breaking up throughout the race and sending the great and good into the barriers.  Even more brutal heat from the fires of Gehenna, something like 130 degrees F temps.  Keke was smart and invested in a cooling balaclava, and won.  Piercarlo Ghinzani was a few weeks removed from a Lauda-like inferno that crisped his Osella and nearly took him; even that weekend he was still peeling dead skin away from his hands, when he thought nobody was watching.  And driving a pig of a car with a sow of an engine.  Prost crashed, Lauda crashed, PCG didn't, and scored the only bona fide points Osella ever scored in a decade of potless, hopeless toil.  Chapeau,  Piercarlo.


A whole paragraph on forgotten drives and Dallas 1984 without mentioning Rene Arnoux. I'm impressed.

#24 Collombin

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:35

What about the margin to 18 other competitiors?


They can provide their own excuses!

#25 George Costanza

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:45

Schumacher 2000 Japan and Spain 1996. Spa 1997. Moanco 1997. European GP 1995, Spa 1995... Many more.



#26 Henri Greuter

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:47

Other that the overrated Donington '93 I've read a lot of suggestions that I can agree with.

 

Events I've missed

 

- Schumacher at Barcelona 1996 with a misfiring Ferrari in pooring rain.

- Gilles Villeneuve at Canada 1981 finishing third in that hopeless bad first turbocharged Ferrari 126CK, driving part of the race with his view blocked by the front wing bent upwards and eventually gone. Can anyone imagen how difficult that first generation turbocharged F1 engnes were to drive and then on a wet track? Finishing on the podium with such a car in those conditions and such handicaps.

 

 

Henri



#27 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 16:51

From the description of this forum:
 
The place for debates on the current affairs of Formula 1, rallying, MotoGP, NASCAR, V8, Indycar, and all other forms of motorsport

 

 
This thread is not appropriate for this forum and is closed.