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All time greatest Grand Prix drives


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#51 edtheshred

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 19:05

well this is embarrassing

 

1968 gp at the ring after another flat tire (on the opening lap)  dan was doing lap times equal to one Jacky Stewart in what everyone called Jackies best  drive.  what a race that would have been had it not been for a flat tire.

as ever ed

 

i must have miss-remembered sorry for the confusion and thanks to roger clark for the clarification

ed



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#52 AlecHawkins

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:46

Any drive that included J M Fangio,  S Moss and  CAS Brooks ..

 

The rest are debatable ....



#53 ensign14

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 18:34

Rene Dreyfus at Pau in 1938.  Everyone forgets that one - but the Silver Arrows were beaten fair and square. 



#54 William Hunt

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 22:56

I would add Senna's win in the rain at Donington 1993 to the list, well especially his first lap :)



#55 Mohican

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 14:27

Ickx running away from the field winning the German GP at the Nürburgring in 1972. Stewart doing the same the following year (when Ickx was third, in a McLaren M23).
Peterson winning the French GP (remember those ?) at Dijon in 1974, driving a four year old car.

#56 Charlieman

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 17:19

Peterson winning the French GP (remember those ?) at Dijon in 1974, driving a four year old car.

A privateer running a 1970 spec Lotus 72 would have been driving a four year old car. Ronnie, in the factory Lotus, drove a design established and developed over four years.

 

When James Hunt won his Driver's Championship, the essential design was four years old. Every year, the team develops the car and it becomes faster.



#57 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 17:58

The 86 British GP, the last one at Brands Hatch.  OK, Mansell & Piquet had by far the fastest cars that season.  1st corner shunt brought out the red flag. Mansell's car badly damaged, so he jumped into the spare that wasn't set up for him. Took him a while to get used to it but he hunted down and passed team mate Piquet for the lead and won. Prost was 3rd, over a lap down. Mansell's average lap time over the whole race was faster than 1/3rd of the field had done in qualifying..... :)   



#58 Mohican

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 09:30

A privateer running a 1970 spec Lotus 72 would have been driving a four year old car. Ronnie, in the factory Lotus, drove a design established and developed over four years.

When James Hunt won his Driver's Championship, the essential design was four years old. Every year, the team develops the car and it becomes faster.


Yes, of course you are right that the cars were constantly developed - and the McLaren M23 still being competitive in 1977 (Villeneuve at Silverstone, for example) and still being used by privateers as late as 1978 was very impressive. Of course the fact that the engine stayed the same helped.

All the same, I still think that Ronnie winning at Dijon in '74 was special; the Lotus 72 was well past it's peak by then and of course Lotus had tried and failed to replace it with the 76.

#59 George Costanza

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 16:43

Schumacher: Spain 1996 of course.



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#60 George Costanza

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 16:44

I sometimes wonder if that Ferrari was just really good in the wet, but Alesi at Nurburgring and Japan in 1995 were very impressive, partly because they were with slicks in damp conditions rather than standard wet-weather drives. A lot of people remember Nurburgring for Schumacher's comeback, but that was just him in dry conditions doing what he'd done all year. It's just a shame his one win came with an unmemorable inherited win at Montreal.

 

Seriously? The fans in Montreal were all going nuts. Running on the track which is something we don't see much today except at Monza.



#61 George Costanza

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:46

Barry, didn't Graham stay in Clark's slipstream until he retired?

 

As for the others, some I agree with a lot, some less so, but one stands out as ridiculous: Schumacher at Hungary in '98? That was the race where he couldn't overtake all race long despite having a huge car advantage, got ahead only by clever pit stops and even then almost threw it all away by running off the road! Are we talking about great drives, or off days???

 

Michael at Hungary 1998? What car advantage he had? The Macs were the best car that season. The way he push the limit just to make the gap work was nothing short of stunning speed. And overtaking? You expect that at Hungary of all places?



#62 Henri Greuter

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 13:15

One of the most outstanding drives I ever saw was by Gilles Villeneuve in Canada 1981.

That first turbocharged Ferrari was likely the worst or second to worst chassis of the year. Those early generation turbocharged cars of Renault and Ferrari were difficult enough, let olen when it raned like it did in Canada in 1981!

Still, despite losing grip because of a bent front wing and eventually a lost front wing, Gilles still managed to finish third with that car on a wet track in the rain.

An absolutely incredible performance that is often overlooked or downplayed because it wasn't a race winning performance.

 

 

Henri



#63 Michael Ferner

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 18:50

Michael at Hungary 1998? What car advantage he had? The Macs were the best car that season. The way he push the limit just to make the gap work was nothing short of stunning speed. And overtaking? You expect that at Hungary of all places?


Yes, over a season the McLarens were better, but due to the ongoing tyre war things changed dramatically from race to race. At Hungary, Ferrari had a field day, so much that Eddie Irvine held the fastest race lap when he retired early on - when has that ever happened? And, yes, overtaking, I very much expect that, even in Hungary - you know, I grew up watching F1 before 1994.

#64 CSquared

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 00:16

Yes, over a season the McLarens were better, but due to the ongoing tyre war things changed dramatically from race to race. At Hungary, Ferrari had a field day, so much that Eddie Irvine held the fastest race lap when he retired early on - when has that ever happened? And, yes, overtaking, I very much expect that, even in Hungary - you know, I grew up watching F1 before 1994.

If you really care to learn more about it, a quick web search will take you to several articles which will explain why that drive was impressive. You'll find that Schumacher built a gap of 25 seconds in 19 laps, among other things. One of the articles I found in a similar web search lead me to this: "Irvine briefly held the fastest lap, 1m21.129 on lap 7, but Hakkinen quickly responded the following lap with a 1m20.664." Having followed F1 for so long you'll understand how significant it is to have fastest lap for one lap early in the race. 



#65 kayemod

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:59

If you really care to learn more about it, a quick web search will take you to several articles which will explain why that drive was impressive. You'll find that Schumacher built a gap of 25 seconds in 19 laps, among other things. One of the articles I found in a similar web search lead me to this: "Irvine briefly held the fastest lap, 1m21.129 on lap 7, but Hakkinen quickly responded the following lap with a 1m20.664." Having followed F1 for so long you'll understand how significant it is to have fastest lap for one lap early in the race. 

 

"Argument is an intellectual process, contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says"

 

"No it isn't!"

 

"I'm sorry, is this just the five minute argument, or have you paid for the full half-hour?"

 

More to the point, how did a thread like this escape from Racing Comments?



#66 Henri Greuter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 13:06

"

More to the point, how did a thread like this escape from Racing Comments?

 

 

Easy.

 

Because in the last years we haven't seen real racing anymore that may qualify among the greatest Grand Prix drives.

So you automatically end up with selecting races from years that are more suited for the Nostalgia forum than for "the neighbours" next door....

 

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 06 August 2014 - 13:08.


#67 ahw911

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 13:24

 

More to the point, how did a thread like this escape from Racing Comments?

 

Because the Racing Comments moderator locked the thread when it was on there saying that it did not fit the criteria for that thread!

 

I started a new thread here as a result.


Edited by ahw911, 06 August 2014 - 13:25.


#68 jj2728

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 20:51

Maybe we should re-title the thread "All time greatest GP drives prior to 1990"......that would suffice me thinks.........



#69 ahw911

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 22:01

Maybe we should re-title the thread "All time greatest GP drives prior to 1990"......that would suffice me thinks.........

 

Ok by me :drunk:



#70 E.B.

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 22:05

Sounds oxymoronic to me.

#71 ahw911

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 22:23

Sounds oxymoronic to me.

 

LOL



#72 D-Type

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 09:39

"Argument is an intellectual process, contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says"

 

"No it isn't!"

 

"I'm sorry, is this just the five minute argument, or have you paid for the full half-hour?"

 

More to the point, how did a thread like this escape from Racing Comments?

Remember that the 1990's are now 20 years ago and are therefore nostalgia/history to many, particularly those who are too young to remember the fifties and sixties (and even seventies!).

I think that a rule-of-thumb for cutoff between here and "Racing Comments" is whether the discussion relates to a driver who is still racing.  I know that the line moves when someone introduces Button, Alonso Raikkonen or another veteran into the discussion, but that's the nature of an arbitrary rule.

Put another way: is it far enough back for an element of objectivity to develop?  I say 'an element' as people still express opinions on the relative merits of Caracciola, Chiron, Nuvolari, Rosemeyer etc.


Edited by D-Type, 07 August 2014 - 09:44.


#73 kayemod

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 10:30

Remember that the 1990's are now 20 years ago and are therefore nostalgia/history to many, particularly those who are too young to remember the fifties and sixties (and even seventies!).

I think that a rule-of-thumb for cutoff between here and "Racing Comments" is whether the discussion relates to a driver who is still racing.  I know that the line moves when someone introduces Button, Alonso Raikkonen or another veteran into the discussion, but that's the nature of an arbitrary rule.

Put another way: is it far enough back for an element of objectivity to develop?  I say 'an element' as people still express opinions on the relative merits of Caracciola, Chiron, Nuvolari, Rosemeyer etc.

 

You're absolutely right Duncan, it was the argumentative "My dad's better than your dad" type of fanboy discussion that bothered me, nothing objective about it at all.



#74 ahw911

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 16:25

Sounds oxymoronic to me.

 

I think tautologous is more accurate :yawnface:



#75 Michael Ferner

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 18:55

If you really care to learn more about it, a quick web search will take you to several articles which will explain why that drive was impressive. You'll find that Schumacher built a gap of 25 seconds in 19 laps, among other things. One of the articles I found in a similar web search lead me to this: "Irvine briefly held the fastest lap, 1m21.129 on lap 7, but Hakkinen quickly responded the following lap with a 1m20.664." Having followed F1 for so long you'll understand how significant it is to have fastest lap for one lap early in the race.


Hm. I guess that "quick web search" would only show me how many articles are written with little to no knowledge of the subject. 25 seconds in 19 laps is not that impressive when you have fresh, superior tyres and a damp patch of fuel in the tanks. And the fact remains, that Schumacher ran off the road with victory in sight, and was very lucky to be able to continue at all. Not my definition of "impressive", let alone "greatest drive of all time"!

But anyway, I don't care much about discussing post-1993 F1 events. Grand Prix racing pretty much died for me with the introduction of the fuel stop circus. Not my cuppa tea.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 07 August 2014 - 18:58.


#76 Gabrci

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 05:58

Hm. I guess that "quick web search" would only show me how many articles are written with little to no knowledge of the subject. 25 seconds in 19 laps is not that impressive when you have fresh, superior tyres and a damp patch of fuel in the tanks. And the fact remains, that Schumacher ran off the road with victory in sight, and was very lucky to be able to continue at all. Not my definition of "impressive", let alone "greatest drive of all time"!

But anyway, I don't care much about discussing post-1993 F1 events. Grand Prix racing pretty much died for me with the introduction of the fuel stop circus. Not my cuppa tea.

 

Sir, please stop this before you make a total fool of yourself, although this warning is probably coming too late. 



#77 Gary Davies

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 09:35

I've long had good memories of Graham Hill's 1965 Monaco effort. You'll recall that was the race in which the presence of Bob Anderson's retiring Brabham at the chicane on lap 25 obliged Hill to take to the escape road. He was around half a minute pushing the BRM back up the slope to the chicane and rejoining the race. Yet he passed Surtees in one Ferrari by lap 53 and Bandini (whose tactics under pressure from Hill DSJ compared to those of Brabham in similar situations... and didn't disapprove of!) on lap 65.

 

Ultimately NGH won from (a slowing) Bandini by over a minute. In Life at The Limit, Hill rated that race as one of his best, along with the 1962 German Grand Prix.

 

Well played that man.



#78 retriever

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 19:48

I've long had good memories of Graham Hill's 1965 Monaco effort. You'll recall that was the race in which the presence of Bob Anderson's retiring Brabham at the chicane on lap 25 obliged Hill to take to the escape road. He was around half a minute pushing the BRM back up the slope to the chicane and rejoining the race. Yet he passed Surtees in one Ferrari by lap 53 and Bandini (whose tactics under pressure from Hill DSJ compared to those of Brabham in similar situations... and didn't disapprove of!) on lap 65.

 

Ultimately NGH won from (a slowing) Bandini by over a minute. In Life at The Limit, Hill rated that race as one of his best, along with the 1962 German Grand Prix.

 

Well played that man.

 

Well played that man - I second that!

 

My choice - Graham Hill finishing the 1970 South African Grand Prix in sixth place and earning a championship point in Rob Walker's Lotus 49C. Just five months earlier he had been thrown from his Gold Leaf Team Lotus Lotus 49B at Watkins Glen breaking both legs.

 

What a man and what an era.



#79 Victor

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 23:17

What about Stewart wining the 1968 German GP by a margin of 4 minutes?

Also one of my favourite drive ever was Gilles in Montreal in 1981.

Lauda finishing 4th in Monza only a few weeks after his terrible Nürburgring crash is one of the bravest drives I have ever seen.



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#80 George Costanza

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 01:18

Hm. I guess that "quick web search" would only show me how many articles are written with little to no knowledge of the subject. 25 seconds in 19 laps is not that impressive when you have fresh, superior tyres and a damp patch of fuel in the tanks. And the fact remains, that Schumacher ran off the road with victory in sight, and was very lucky to be able to continue at all. Not my definition of "impressive", let alone "greatest drive of all time"!

But anyway, I don't care much about discussing post-1993 F1 events. Grand Prix racing pretty much died for me with the introduction of the fuel stop circus. Not my cuppa tea.

I guess you forgot how fast the Macs were. Superior tires? Really? 1998 season?


Edited by George Costanza, 09 August 2014 - 01:19.


#81 Bloggsworth

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 09:27

Stirling Moss in the 1958 Argentine GP, in which, with one damaged eye (he only had the bandages removed about 30 minutes before the race), he won the race in a Cooper which had bolt on wheels which ruled out the tyre changes that the Ferraris and Maseratis were able to make. This meant that Moss drove the last laps on the canvas as there was no tread left on the tyres. He used the parts of the track with the most oily residue on them as they would wear the tyres less...



#82 Gary Davies

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 09:38

Yes, Bloggs, that was a goodie!



#83 AlecHawkins

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 08:09

People overlook the race Tony Brooks drove  at the Nurburgring in 1958.  Peter Collins's fatal accident drew attention away from a catch-up drive comparable to Fangio's 1957 drive.

About time this was recognised



#84 PlatenGlass

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 15:44

Seriously? The fans in Montreal were all going nuts. Running on the track which is something we don't see much today except at Monza.

The race and drive were unmemorable. It was a boring inherited win, which was a shame given some of his other drives that could have resulted in a win.

#85 ApolloBluecat

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 16:45

Mansell 1987 Silverstone

Stewart 1968 Nurburgring

And the blasts from the back from John Watson



#86 kayemod

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 17:07

Mansell 1987 Silverstone

Stewart 1968 Nurburgring

And the blasts from the back from John Watson

 

Stewart and Watson I'll allow, but Mansell fans raving about his 87 Silverstone win have always puzzled me a little, I'm not denying Nigel's talent, not at all, and some of his other wins were indeed memorable, but apart from some exciting TV coverage, what was so marvelous about this one? New tyres versus worn out ones, and he outcornered Nelson to win by a couple of seconds, is that it? I'm not expecting a huge amount of support for this, but I thought that Nigel drove better at Monaco in 92 to come second to Senna, even though his amateur dramatics after the finish rather took the shine of his performance. Don't take any notice of me though, as I've already posted, I wasn't hugely impressed by Gilles race long blocking act to win in Spain in 81, and I'm probably almost on my own on that one as well..



#87 BRG

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 19:44

Stewart and Watson I'll allow, but Mansell fans raving about his 87 Silverstone win have always puzzled me a little, 

You had to be there I think*.  It was a combination of gritty local hero overcoming his illustrious but foreign team-mate all in a haze of somewhat jingoistic euphoria.  Even I went a bit mad and bought a Goodyear cap to celebrate.  Not a great race by any means nor a specially noteworthy drive , but a great experience on the day.

 

* I am assuming, probably completely wrongly, that you weren't.



#88 ahw911

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 20:20

Stewart and Watson I'll allow, but Mansell fans raving about his 87 Silverstone win have always puzzled me a little, I'm not denying Nigel's talent, not at all, and some of his other wins were indeed memorable, but apart from some exciting TV coverage, what was so marvelous about this one? New tyres versus worn out ones, and he outcornered Nelson to win by a couple of seconds, is that it? I'm not expecting a huge amount of support for this, but I thought that Nigel drove better at Monaco in 92 to come second to Senna, even though his amateur dramatics after the finish rather took the shine of his performance. Don't take any notice of me though, as I've already posted, I wasn't hugely impressed by Gilles race long blocking act to win in Spain in 81, and I'm probably almost on my own on that one as well..

 

Agreed on all counts.  Monaco '92 was a much better drive.

 

I'm sure you're correct in your assessment of your loneliness in not appreciating Gilles' Jarama win.  It wasn't blocking as such.  It was, IMHO, a tremendous demonstration of his skill in manhandling that beast through the braking areas and the corners without letting the quicker cars past, in order to use the immense power advantage to keep them behind him on the straight bits.  Remember that Jarama is quite a twiddly circuit and includes corners where you 'roll it in' rather than simply brake to the apex and then get back on the power.  In addition that model Ferrari consumed its tyres very quickly.



#89 john aston

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 06:54

Objectively there may be  better candidates but as I was in the Stowe Grandstand in 87 it has to be Mansell's move on Piquet. I was and am no fan of the paranoid Brummie (see this week's Autosport for the latest episode of his soap opera ) but in nearly 50 years racegoing the sheer adrenal excitement and near feral tribalism was unparallelled   in my experience. And Villeneuve- I will whisper it but I wasn't a big fan either...sorrry 



#90 chr1s

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 15:37

I think Lauda's Long beach win in 1982 deserves a mention. Coming back after two years away and winning the third race of the season was pretty impressive to me.

 

I also think that Monaco 92' was not only one of Mansell's best perfomances, but Senna's too, the most exciting race of the season.



#91 jj2728

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 19:39

I was at Jarama in '81 and I was mightily impressed by GV's drive.....


Edited by jj2728, 12 August 2014 - 19:42.


#92 arttidesco

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 20:21

All the same, I still think that Ronnie winning at Dijon in '74 was special; the Lotus 72 was well past it's peak by then and of course Lotus had tried and failed to replace it with the 76.

 

Without disagreeing with the sentiment re Ronnie's performances in 1974 at Monaco, in France and Italy, IIRC McLaren had intended to replace the M23 with the M26 in 1976.  ;)



#93 Henri Greuter

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 07:44

I was at Jarama in '81 and I was mightily impressed by GV's drive.....

 

 

Perhaps another drive of Gilles that perhaps was more heroic than remembered. His victory at Watkins Gles in 1979. After a duel with Alan Jones who the had to retire . An inherited win? Yes.

But when you know that he drove his last 25 laps with low oil pressure and thus nursed the car to victory.....

In a manner Gilles was all but known for by the majority of race fans....

No GV-like heroics but a victory snatched away from the jaws of defeat.

 

Henri



#94 garagetinkerer

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 16:13

Hm. I guess that "quick web search" would only show me how many articles are written with little to no knowledge of the subject. 25 seconds in 19 laps is not that impressive when you have fresh, superior tyres and a damp patch of fuel in the tanks. And the fact remains, that Schumacher ran off the road with victory in sight, and was very lucky to be able to continue at all. Not my definition of "impressive", let alone "greatest drive of all time"!

But anyway, I don't care much about discussing post-1993 F1 events. Grand Prix racing pretty much died for me with the introduction of the fuel stop circus. Not my cuppa tea.



#95 garagetinkerer

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 16:21

I guess you forgot how fast the Macs were. Superior tires? Really? 1998 season?

Ferrari thought it wasn't a fair fight given how superior Goodyear tyres were, and decided to use Bridgestone from next year onwards to help us spectators. :well:  Schumacher really does bring out some of the strangest sort of detractors. All yardsticks which were working just fine, they're re-invented suddenly.

 



#96 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 21:38

... and some of he strangest (and stubborn) supporters, too. :lol: Re-invented yardsticks, like being able to stay on the paved bit perhaps? :drunk:

#97 garagetinkerer

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 00:17

... and some of he strangest (and stubborn) supporters, too. :lol: Re-invented yardsticks, like being able to stay on the paved bit perhaps? :drunk:

Thank you for proving my point.



#98 Michael Ferner

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 08:01

... which is what, exactly?

#99 George Costanza

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 17:04

... and some of he strangest (and stubborn) supporters, too. :lol: Re-invented yardsticks, like being able to stay on the paved bit perhaps? :drunk:

 

That you deny how great Michael Schumacher truly was.



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#100 kayemod

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 17:49

That you deny how great Michael Schumacher truly was.

 

That comment tells us that you're on the wrong forum. There's a lot more to "greatness" than driving quickly.