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Hockenheim 52,000 - Nürburgring 170,000


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#1 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 20:52

Well, that's not a comparison between now and then, it was both last weekend: I was rather surprised to learn that the Nürburgring scheduled its Truck Grand Prix for the same weekend of the German Grand Prix at Hockenheim, and even more so when I learned that they attracted more than three times as many people! Discuss?



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#2 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 20:59

I've seen this figure mentioned a few times, is it reliable? Is it a race day or combined weekend figure? Is it typical for truck races or the exception?



#3 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 21:13

I think it's the weekend figure, and it's not the racing alone - there are concerts as well, it's a huge C&W spectacle in effect. Still, an impressive figure I'd say. Hockenheim's not - has there ever been a Großer Preis with such a dismal crowd?



#4 D-Type

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 22:04

Historically, German race fans have the reputation of being extremely nationalistic.  Perhaps the German public don't consider Niko Rosberg to be as German as Jochen Hahn, or the Mercedes-Benz F1 car to be as much a product of German engineering as the MAN truck.



#5 Les

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 22:21

Its the modern day equivalent of the Ostrich Race outselling the Phoenix GP. 



#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 22:28

Historically, German race fans have the reputation of being extremely nationalistic.  Perhaps the German public don't consider Niko Rosberg to be as German as Jochen Hahn, or the Mercedes-Benz F1 car to be as much a product of German engineering as the MAN truck.

While you're right up to a point there, Duncan, I'm not sure blind nationalism explains the 210000 weekend figure for the bike GP at the Sachsenring - given that the number of potential German winners in Moto GP can currently be counted on the fingers of fewer than one hand.

 

Daniel Johnson had - for once - a pretty good piece on this in the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph...Hockenheim.html



#7 arttidesco

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 22:35

First time I saw trucks race at Brands Hatch in 1990 I could not quite believe my eyes 'it's racing Jim, but not as we know it.'

 

One thing I do remember is that the meeting was sponsored by a Daily red top rag and I got the feeling many of the spectators were in on a heavily discounted rate if not completely free of charge with the correct number of coupons.



#8 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 23:27

Across F1, MotoGP, and Truck racing; I imagine are widly diferent demographics and more importantly, ticket prices.



#9 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:42

Bernie and co have priced F1 fans out of attending. 

That and the cars they are racing that have no great appeal.

These days I would not bother to attend even if it was back in Adelaide where I am 6km from the track. 



#10 Hamish Robson

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:56

I went to the GP at Hockenheim in '86 and the place was rammed full on race day. Last weekend looked faintly embarrassing. Mind you, when I went the weekend ticket cost was £30...



#11 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:09

Spectator figures quoted for any Nürburgring meeting always need to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

 

Michael, I suggest you read these blog entries by Mike Frison of 20832.com: http://mikefrison.com/2691 and http://mikefrison.com/798 (the blog is in German, but the chart in the second link speaks for itself).

 

By the way, for most meetings other than the German Grand Prix, 52,000 people on race day and 92,000 for the weekend would be terrific, IMHO. Ask IndyCar.



#12 D-Type

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:45

Ross mentioned an obvious point - Does anyone know what the differenty ticket prices were?



#13 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 15:27

Times 10.



#14 BRG

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 15:47

Well it certainly wasn't the noise, despite all the claims otherwise.  A silenced turbo charged truck diesel engine is hardly the stuff of dreams.

 

I'd say it was about euros, and a very poor support programme for F1



#15 uechtel

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:33

I went to the GP at Hockenheim in '86 and the place was rammed full on race day. Last weekend looked faintly embarrassing. Mind you, when I went the weekend ticket cost was £30...

In 1986 there was no full free TV coverage in Germany I think. Also maybe it was still possible to get access to the pit area then.

 

Today you have to pay ten times the money without any chance to get really close to a car or driver. Also from your seat on the tribune you can watch possibly one corner of the track and the rest of the race on a big screen. So you can have almost the same at home for much less money.



#16 uechtel

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:09

Also in German fan culture I see a massive change towards what we call 'event fans' over here. Means they are not interested in a certain sport but looking for the best 'party'. So maybe they were still 'well fed' from the football championship.

 

Up until the eighties with no real German top pilot in sight Grand Prix were attended by real hard-core fans, who could have also foreign heroes like Peterson, Lauda, Andretti etc.. The community was maybe small, but with a very stable kernel, and the entrance fees were well adjusted to that.

 

In the Schumacher era this colourful scene became almost all red and the tribunes were filled with people who had never thought of going to a F1 event before. The hype was to celebrate a national hero, like the same had happened with tennis before (Becker, Graf). But ir had the effect, that because of the sheer numbers entrance fees could be risen and TV coverage was massively extended, but at the same time maybe also more focused on glamour than on journalistic competence. I think this development may have disappointed many of the old community. Also more and more regulations were introduced to keep the races and the championship 'exciting', sometimes with a very farcical character (like this year´s double-points-in-the-last-race rule). I think many spectators are intelligent enough to see that this is a development away from 'sport', but with a smell of 'scripted reality'.


Edited by uechtel, 25 July 2014 - 09:09.


#17 funformula

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 11:02

uechtel:

your post is spot on...exactly my thoughts.

 

I remember being in Hockenheim as a boy in 1982, my brother and I standing at the entrance to the pit area trying to get a glimpse of the drivers and the cars.

After some time the security came to us, smiled, opened the door and let us in....we felt like being in heaven.

Over the years we made a challenge out of it on how far we can come without paying a single Deutschmark and it worked well every year although the friendly security were replaced around the mid 80´s by a professional foreign security company. This set the challenge on a new level but it was always great fun...for example we watched the 1994 qualifying from top of the rostrum. It always worked well until around the new millenium. But by then it was not that interesting anymore, all the pits were covered and there was not much interesting left you could watch.

 

I won´t say that the races were more interesting then, but the whole package was far more interesting.



#18 Michael Ferner

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 20:27

Of course, the Truck Grand Prix is much cheaper, and F1 has millions watching TV; also there are probably not many who would consider going to both events - the Nürburgring event is more like a C&W version of Rock am Ring, with a bit of truck racing thrown into the mix. Indeed, an ostrich race vs. F1! But still: German drivers have won 11 out of the 20 most recent world championships, including the last four in a row, and another German driver is leading this year's contest, driving a German car for a German team. Even in 1981, when there was practically zero German input in F1 (just one Swedish pop musician driving an English kit car for an automotive supplier from Bad Dürkheim, a town so exotic for most Germans it might as well be Burkina Faso), the place was packed with people! And now?

 

Editorial comment has focussed in on Vettel's lack of charisma, and Rosberg's suspect ancestry, yet thirty years ago Germany was ready to adopt his father as einer von uns even when he was not winning, just because he had lived here a couple years when driving Volkswagens on steroids. True, he spoke better German than the average F1 fan, but the stereotype of German xenophobia is a red herring anyway: there are, for example, two pugilist brothers from the Ukraine who command attention from the entire TV nation every time they fight, for reasons I have never fully comprehended. And speaking of charisma, Michael Schumacher was never exactly blessed with the stuff, was he. So, what is it, really?

 

I think uechtel is on the right track with his answer: thirty years ago, no promoter would have dared to schedule the Truck Grand Prix (or any other motoring event) on the German Grand Prix weekend, because it was the same fan pool for every event. Nowadays, it's the Dolly Parton and Kenny Rogers fans who head for the Ring, and the "event followers" who pay premium prices for a Rolling Stones concert, the Davis Cup or the Mercedes-Benz tribune at Hockenheim. The core of the racing fans has simply evaporated, it's gone. Forever?


Edited by Michael Ferner, 25 July 2014 - 20:30.


#19 scheivlak

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 22:34

 thirty years ago, no promoter would have dared to schedule the Truck Grand Prix (or any other motoring event) on the German Grand Prix weekend, because it was the same fan pool for every event. 

Thirty years ago maybe - but I've been told that when the German ('F1') GP was relocated to Hockenheim in 1970 (booed by the likes of Jenks though IMHO it was a fantastic race), there was a F2 race at the N'ring at same weekend that drew far more spectators. True or not?



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#20 Michael Ferner

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 13:31

True on both counts, I suppose. But that was a unique situation, wasn't it? Today, it's like the "in-people" stop attending, and the "bottom seed" no longer exists!

I wonder what the new owners of the Ring make of this - will they adjust?

#21 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 21:21

It's a matter of the true enthusiasts being offended by what's on offer...

It's doubtful many will ever come back.

#22 Tuboscocca

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 21:27

True on both counts, I suppose. But that was a unique situation, wasn't it? Today, it's like the "in-people" stop attending, and the "bottom seed" no longer exists!

I wonder what the new owners of the Ring make of this - will they adjust?

Michael,

 

calm down, BRIATORE is now involved to make current F1 more attractive... :clap: :clap: :clap: More staged races or c®ashes???

 

regards from (another) Michael


Edited by Tuboscocca, 26 July 2014 - 21:29.


#23 Michael Ferner

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 08:25

Michael, thanks, but I'm not worried. I haven't followed the sport for nigh on fifteen years now, and don't plan on changing that anytime soon. I have also stopped reading the sports pages long ago, and am making my observations from browsing the business sections of newspapers, believe it or not. I just thought these snippets of news might be interesting to TNF readers.

Another aspect I thought was interesting, but hasn't prompted comment so far, is that F1 has seemingly become a TV sport, exclusively. For decades, motor racing lived by its exciting mix of sensual experiences, "sensations" in the truest sense of the word. TV was certainly a blessing for road racing fans, but has it now taken over for good?

I can well remember when, as a young lad, I was excited by the prospect of live coverage of the 1978 Long Beach Grand Prix in full length, something you didn't expect at the time. There was usually live coverage of the German Grand Prix, and between ten to fifteen minutes of the other F1 races - if you were lucky! On some occasions, there was no coverage at all, or the dreaded 2'59" reports (or was it even 1'59"?) that were free of cost to the TV stations. The Long Beach GP was aired live because it happened late at night in Germany, and fitted into a hole in the programme one suspects. Anyway, I was in hog heaven, and was proud that I knew the name Gilles Villeneuve already before he entered the limelight for the first time, but I digress.

That was, I believe, the first time for full-length coverage of an F1 race other than the German GP in Germany. Come to think of it, I believe the first TV coverage of the German GP was in 1966, barely a year before I was born. It would be interesting to know the exact figures, but I can imagine that there were almost as many souls present at the Ring as were watching the race on TV back then! And now? Can F1 really exist without trackside spectators?

#24 Allan Lupton

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 09:02

BRIATORE is now involved to make current F1 more attractive... :clap: :clap: :clap: More staged races or c®ashes???

As I wrote in another place, when BBC TV showed the film "Grand Prix" immediately before the "highlights" of the German effone GP, I preferred the former.
Lots of footage of the pre-Tilke versions of circuits we know and used to love; the racing was better and even the accidents were more believable - if you wrote something in a film script like Massa's first lap inversion with the car using its last bit of kinetic energy to pop back upright you'd be laughed out of the job.

I'd say the fire in the Mercedes during practice in Hungary had the same scriptwriter - don't those cars even have the plumbed-in fire extinguishers that club racers have?


Edited by Allan Lupton, 27 July 2014 - 09:06.


#25 Tuboscocca

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 18:43

Michael F.

 

That was, I believe, the first time for full-length coverage of an F1 race other than the German GP in Germany. Come to think of it, I believe the first TV coverage of the German GP was in 1966, barely a year before I was born. It would be interesting to know the exact figures, but I can imagine that there were almost as many souls present at the Ring as were watching the race on TV back then! And now? Can F1 really exist without trackside spectators?

 

 

..I think there was already a thread in which this was discussed (first full TV coverage of an GP-countrywise??).

 

I agree mostly with what you said..I'm following still every GP, but with much distance!! The last one we saw in reality was Monaco 1998 (an invitation from my wife ). This was a very interesting race!!

I turned to Historics and Endurance racing (Tudor ,Blancpain..WEC). And I'm happy with that...

And on the otherside we have our memories...(I started visiting races in '62...)

 

Best regards Michael


Edited by Tuboscocca, 27 July 2014 - 18:44.


#26 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 19:30

How does the perception of F1 'entertainment' stand within this community if anyone here watched today's Hungarian GP...?

 

DCN



#27 chunder27

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 19:49

Watty had it right donkesy years ago

 

A bit of rain always make the racing better when the track dries and stuff.

 

It is a fallacy really, but you cant argue with his logic



#28 uffen

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 23:57

The Hungarian race was a good one. I enjoyed it.

Anyway, the issue was raised about races needing live fans. As I see it without live fans it matters not where the races are. If TV was it they could have them all at one huge facility with multiple options for layouts. Bernie sells the hosts on the publicity their city/country will get by hosting. Is anyone out there going to visit Abu Dahbi, Bahrain, Malaysia, Sao Paulo, Korea, India, or China based solely on what they see on a TV race broadcast? Especially when the stands are empty? From what I see on TV I'd avoid those places.

 

I my opinion this whole thing is becoming a white elephant and Briatore has his work cut out.



#29 scheivlak

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:05

even the accidents were more believable

OT - I beg to differ.....

 

I like the movie despite all the shortcomings (some terrible acting and clumsy racing) but every accident in 'Grand Prix' (Monaco, Spa, Monza) is, let's say, far more unrealistic than a simple run-of-the-mill first corner shunt. 



#30 uechtel

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:48

How does the perception of F1 'entertainment' stand within this community if anyone here watched today's Hungarian GP...?

 

DCN

I did watch it and was quite disappointed when the pace car changed everything. It is not because I support certain drivers (at the moment I press thumbs for Massa and Williams), but as being a traditionalist I don´t like motor racing being combined with a dice game. The racing afterwards may have been still interesting and I know the pace car was needed for safety reasons, nevertheless my feeling was that the final result was not 'authentic' any more.

 

But another thing made me really listen up, when the German commentator announced, that it would really pay out for 'young people' to come to the next race at Spa as there will be a special 'party zone' for them. And I had immediately to think of my last comment in this thread.

 

Think of that, if something like that is necessary - at Spa! Which for me is one of the few remaining 'real' circuits, and probably the most exciting one of them all. So if it´s necessary to try such methods there to get spectator attractions to me it is an indication of how deep the Grand Prix crisis is and how wrong the direction is in which they still want to go. 

 

I think the problem is really the 'success' of the recent era, so in our world it is simply not acceptable if after such a hype something - not only motorracing - falls back to a 'normal' state. It´s simply inherent to the system, that anything is expected for eternal growth and anything else is 'failure'. I know it from some other event scene here, where in the beginning fifteen years ago it was a sensation when we had 150 particiants and now after one or two  successful years we are deeply depressed when we can get 'only' 300 people together any more...



#31 BRG

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:21

How does the perception of F1 'entertainment' stand within this community if anyone here watched today's Hungarian GP...?

 

DCN

I saw some good hard racing in slightly difficult conditions that caught out several drivers.  I saw several drivers demolish the myth of being impossible to overtake at the Hungaroring - and some without the benefit of artificial contrivances like DRS.  I saw an attempt at team orders treated with the contempt it deserved.  I saw a driver in a dodgy red car wrestle it to any improbable second place.  And I saw a young man from down under stake his claim towards becoming a worthy successor to the greatly missed Sir Jack Brabham.

 

I know this is TNF and that therefore it is dogma to decry anything modern, but this was a race that was easily a match for most from the Good Old Days.


Edited by BRG, 28 July 2014 - 09:21.


#32 Peter Morley

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:15

How does the perception of F1 'entertainment' stand within this community if anyone here watched today's Hungarian GP...?
DCN


It was definitely an interesting, possibly gripping event, to the extent that I managed to stay awake and missed my usual Sunday GP afternoon siesta.
But I find it difficult to think of current F1 as racing and can't get excited about the artificial stuff.
Things that are wrong (e.g. turn offs) with F1 include:
Drivers being told how to drive over the radio.
Computers that change gear, adjust brake balance and operate many other systems, reducing a driver's input/apparent skill.
Handicapping them with a duff set of tyres (not to mention why anyone thinks tyre changes are relevant to a sprint).
Power boosts & drag reduction to allow them to 'overtake' (they are not overtaking they are passing).
Ugly cars that are so safe they are driven like stock cars.
And so on...

This season it has been good to see Williams near the front and Ferrari in their traditional (historically) position of failing to meet the hype.
Unreliability is also good, the shame is that it isn't down to the driver's skill (which is generally true of F1 these days).

All in all a huge surprise that it was worth sitting through the Hungarian GP for once.

#33 arttidesco

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:51

How does the perception of F1 'entertainment' stand within this community if anyone here watched today's Hungarian GP...?

 

DCN

 

Did I miss anything yesterday while I was recovering from Super Saturday at Silverstone Classic ?



#34 Tuboscocca

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 22:00

Did I miss anything yesterday while I was recovering from Super Saturday at Silverstone Classic ?

Ralph INDEED!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The only 'thing' which rescues an GP today  is WATER !! No OPTION/PRIME/OPTION procession...a case of 'brain-deg'!!..and of course ..'he left the circuit'- tell Charlie--oh we have seen it.-.stuff

 

Regards Michael



#35 BRG

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:27

The only 'thing' which rescues an GP today  is WATER !! 

 

Really?  I don;t remember much water at the generally lamentable Bahrain GP this year, yet many people thought it was one of the best bits of motor RACING seen in F1 for very many years.



#36 Tuboscocca

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:13

Really?  I don;t remember much water at the generally lamentable Bahrain GP this year, yet many people thought it was one of the best bits of motor RACING seen in F1 for very many years.

BRG agreed!!  But there was a safety car plus a restart......The European laugh always about the US-deployment of Pacecars...

 

Michael



#37 AdrianThompson

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 14:34

I’m truly stunned at the negativity on this forum.  I may be a mere whipper snapper at only 45, but I’ve been an avid fan since 1979.  The first race I recall watching on TV, although I know I was watching for a couple of years prior to that, was Alan Jones winning at Brands in 1980.  I don’t think I missed a GP for the next 15 years.    I’m not some F1 driver deJour fan boy, I love motor racing in all forms.  F1, sports cars, historic, rallying, Indy car.  I’ve club raced, done hillclimbs, sprints, drag races, autocross, road rallies.  I’ve built, raced and broken cars.  I love Motorsport. 

 

I may only have attended a half dozen or so GP’s in person, but I’ve been to literally hundreds of other events, mainly hillclimbs and club races.  I lost touch with F1 from 94 to the mid naughties as getting TV coverage when I emigrated to the US in 94 was hard, but I still followed from a distance and went to a few of the F1 races at Indy.  I’m sorry guys, but some of the racing, yes the racing today is the best there’s ever been.  Forget the ‘spectacle’ or the ‘show’, the actual on track racing is outstanding.  I don’t even have an issue with the Seb / Red Bull 4 in a row as behind Seb there were some great races through the field during that era.  Go back and watch some races from the 80’s and many were far more processional with half the field dropping out and not a patch on what’s happening today. 

 

Yes Double points for the last race is stupid and hopefully will go away.  Yes last year’s tire debacle was terrible, but this year they seem to have it right.  I’m even one of the few who, while not liking the need to DRS, doesn’t loath it with a passion.  Right now they seem to have it dialed it in to the point where it helps overcome the dirty air to give the following driver a chance at setting up a move rather than a simple push to pass.  And despite the fact that the cars are ugly, I honestly never notice it when I’m on the edge of my seat seeing a series of great battles like we’ve seen over the last few races.  As for the noise, or lack of it, again, no problem.  Yes the howl of a naturally aspirated V8, 10, 12 is wonderful, but it’s tough to take with 20+ cars going past you for up to 2 hours.  A few one off demo laps, a 10 – 20 lap historic event, a hillclimb, wonderful.  But from flag to flag races I’ve attended in person over the last 15 years you can’t hear a thing.  Also it hasn’t affected the TV spectacle at all.

 

I really don’t’ understand the vitriol.  Is it perfect?  No, but was it perfect 10, 20, 30 or 40 years ago?  Hell no.  Right now we have some truly outstanding drivers, in a variety of cars putting on some amazing, non-contrived races.  What’s not to love?  So TV viewership and track attendance is down.  So what?  Maybe the sport and it’s fans will right size over the next few years, CVC  capital will lose interest and things will become more affordable to watch again.  But right now the on track action is outstanding.

 

If you really want the ultimate Motorsport experience short of taking part yourself, get out into the forests at night and watch a rally.  Don’t bitch about ugly cars, live the noise, the tension the feeling of being there.  Over here in the US we still have 4WD turbo cars and standing in the snow, hearing the crack crack of anti-lag, catching the odd glimpse of lights though the trees in the distance, then the riot of noise, light and action as the car comes past you before fading into the distance as a red glow and more popping and banging.  That’s ‘feeling’ motorsport, try it and stop crying about it.