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Turbo F1 engines - How they started - well, started...


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#1 Nemo1965

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 11:13

An out-dated but very detailed documentary about the Ford F1 turbo:

 

 

Most interesting I think is the part where the foetus Ford turbo-engine gives the ghost on the dyno. Skip to 15:55 or so. The engineer is reading out numbers, and in a mid of sentence the engine says: 'BRRR-broem.' Deadly silence. And the engineer says: '95.' The look on their faces!

 

The first time I saw an engine die on the dyno in real time!


Edited by Nemo1965, 24 July 2014 - 15:42.


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#2 nmansellfan

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 11:36

Good documentary, it was part of a 3 part series - i'm waiting for someone to upload the 3rd part onto Youtube, where they follow Benetton's fortunes in '87 with the Ford V6 turbo after the Haas team closed at the end of the previous season.  Haven't seen it since it was first shown.



#3 chunder27

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 15:12

It is a great doc, especially when you consider wht they were iorginally plannign with the 4 cylinder!!  Until it welded itself to pieces!

 

Such a shame more of these are not about.

 

Was instantly added to faves when I watched it, these cars in my eyes are the pinnacle of old school engineering along with the pre war German stuff, totally out powering the available tech.

Also fascinating to witness the ECU stuff that now is taken for granted by even your nearest rolling road!



#4 Nemo1965

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 15:41

It is a great doc, especially when you consider wht they were iorginally plannign with the 4 cylinder!!  Until it welded itself to pieces!

 

Such a shame more of these are not about.

 

Was instantly added to faves when I watched it, these cars in my eyes are the pinnacle of old school engineering along with the pre war German stuff, totally out powering the available tech.

Also fascinating to witness the ECU stuff that now is taken for granted by even your nearest rolling road!

 

Dito for both counts. I was really raising my eyebrows in the beginning, when they started talking about the 4-cylinder in line Ford engine. "Hang on," I said, "I thought...'

 

And then came the explanation.

 

On a interesting note: I've understood that the BMW block was so reliable because they only used cylinderblocks that were more ten year old and had proven to be near indestructable. I've heard that the technicians at BMW used to pee over the block the first ten times it had gotten hot and cooled off again! The cadmium (?) in the urine made the metal strong, or something like that...


Edited by Nemo1965, 24 July 2014 - 15:41.


#5 MatsNorway

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 16:11

Its not about them being proven indestructable by being old. Its about them being old and have not internal stress left in them and thus being strong, stiff and dead under heat. Its the same thing that gets done with big lathes. They stay outside for say a year in all kinds of weather. It takes the stresses out of them.


Edited by MatsNorway, 24 July 2014 - 16:12.


#6 chunder27

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 20:32

Indeed that BMW block was perhaps one of the strongest around.

 

I tend to disblieve some of the power figures bandied around as stuff of myth and legend.

 

I can't see how even with sticky tyres 1300hp was at all possible.

 

But, the engine at Monza was certainly built to do only a few laps so I guess it is possible.

 

Would have loved to have been an engineer in thise days, doing your time in the shop and then perhaps getting to work on F1 engines. Would ahve been awesome, was all a little bit before my time sadly.



#7 Nemo1965

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 20:49

Its not about them being proven indestructable by being old. Its about them being old and have not internal stress left in them and thus being strong, stiff and dead under heat. Its the same thing that gets done with big lathes. They stay outside for say a year in all kinds of weather. It takes the stresses out of them.

 

Of course I could have switched cause and effect around...

 

:up:



#8 7MGTEsup

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 11:11

 

I tend to disblieve some of the power figures bandied around as stuff of myth and legend.

 

I can't see how even with sticky tyres 1300hp was at all possible.

 

 

If you have the airflow data and the fuel data working out power should be possible. I have a spread sheet that does rough fuel airflow power calcs and at 11500rpm and 5.5 bar boost 1200+ hp isn't out of the question. But the 1500hp some people claim is a total myth.



#9 chunder27

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 11:20

Well, if you have a spreadsheet!!!

 

The bar was incredible on these engines, i remember talking to John Welch abotu this opel Astra supercar, and he basically used the turboa nd induction from a Megatron F1 engine pretty much, and they only ran up to about 3 I think.

 

What with basically using pure toluene, you cna see why these things were so crazy.



#10 George Costanza

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 22:09

If you have the airflow data and the fuel data working out power should be possible. I have a spread sheet that does rough fuel airflow power calcs and at 11500rpm and 5.5 bar boost 1200+ hp isn't out of the question. But the 1500hp some people claim is a total myth.

 

Didn't Honda have a 1250 BHP in 1985, 1986,1987 for qualifying?



#11 MatsNorway

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 08:23

5.5bar is... probably not real either.



#12 chunder27

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:32

The boost was limited in 87 and I think to some extent in 86 aswell not sure.

 

85 was the full power era really. And 86

 

But 87 the cars were limited to 4 bar I think



#13 MatsNorway

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 13:49

Still doubt the 5.5bar..  Even the most extreme Pikes peak cars ive ever read about ran 3bar

 

http://www.saabnet.c...ess/020702.html

 

750hp and actually a very high compression with 9:1



#14 chunder27

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 14:20

I would think Loebs Peugeot was running fairly high boost as it was a works entry, Per's Saab was works to a point, but all built by him and Trollspeed.

 

Actually the mst powerful car at Pikes Peak was Dallenbachs twin turbo sprint thing

 

Also, the Ford cars of Gronholm and Eroksson were very high power when they ran the Fiesta's?

 

No idea what Millen in the Toyota's and Monster's Escudo cars were running boost wise?

 

Again, check out the boost levels in tractor pulling, the diesels are running insane pressures like 13 bar.  OK they are diesels, but these things run to 6000rpm and over 3000hp.



#15 MatsNorway

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 15:24

Not a chance that Peugeot where running higher boost. He had only some 100horses more from a 3.2L V6.

 

Tractorpulling does not worry about response and thus use turboes in stages as well as diesels got more exhaust to work with.


Edited by MatsNorway, 26 July 2014 - 15:31.