28 replies to this topic

[spacekid]

It's slightly off the Nico v Lewis topic, but could someone please help me out with the brake issue?

What actually happened to Lewis' brakes? I can understand a hydraulic or even software failure at any time. I can understand worn pads or discs. But what happens to a new pad or disc to cause a failure? And how can it be manufacturer dependant?

[TomNokoe]

It's slightly off the Nico v Lewis topic, but could someone please help me out with the brake issue?

What actually happened to Lewis' brakes? I can understand a hydraulic or even software failure at any time. I can understand worn pads or discs. But what happens to a new pad or disc to cause a failure? And how can it be manufacturer dependant?

This doesn't answer your question, but "a sudden and catastrophic failure".... It just didn't work? It didn't explode a la Canada, there were no flames. Just didn't want to be a brake disc anymore.

[peterweatherall]

Your guess is as good as mine 

 

I would suggest they would go with the safer option.

 

Actually, this will go back to the technical people at Brackley.  They will demand fresh test data from the brake manufacturer before they put another disc on the car for FP1 or 2.  Some of the other teams using Brembos may do the same.

 

The long-term effect will likely be that the "late-braking" advantage associated with the disc will be discounted from now on, and teams and drivers will all be inclined to a conservative choice.  It may even be that Brembo will have to compete with their competitor for "most conservative"!

[EvilWarMachine]

All brake failures for Mercedes happned with Brembo brakes.

 

That was the reason they moved to CI after Rosberg's brake failure at the beginning of the year. it was Hamilton's decision to move back to Brembo this weekend.

 

As you are obviously privy to this information, could you please give me a breakdown of the manufacturer of the brakes used each race, the wear of the brakes, and the fail rate of the brakes. OR Provide a link to the information you just posted. Ta muchly.

[krea]

As you are obviously privy to this information, could you please give me a breakdown of the manufacturer of the brakes used each race, the wear of the brakes, and the fail rate of the brakes. OR Provide a link to the information you just posted. Ta muchly.

 

http://www.auto-moto...es-8480688.html

 

Die Branche ist alarmiert. Nicht nur Mercedes ist von Bremsdefekten betroffen. Auch Toro Rosso, Sauber, Marussia und Caterham hatten in diesem Jahr mit Bremsscheibenbrüchen zu tun. Toro Rosso drei, Sauber und Marussia je zwei Mal. Das Problem liegt im Material. Der Scheibenlieferant von Brembo hat sich in die Luftfahrtindustrie verabschiedet. Bei den kleinen Mengen in der Formel 1 lässt sich zu wenig verdienen.

Brembo musste einem neuen Fabrikanten vertrauen, der offenbar noch Schwierigkeiten hat, durchgehend gutes Material zu liefern. Es sind aber nicht alle Brembo-Kunden von dem Problem betroffen. Von Ferrari und Red Bull kommen keine Klagen. Bei Ferrari kennt man den Grund. Die Italiener haben ihr Lager klugerweise noch rechtzeitig mit den Scheiben aus dem letzten Jahr aufgefüllt.

[EvilWarMachine]

http://www.auto-moto...es-8480688.html

 

Die Branche ist alarmiert. Nicht nur Mercedes ist von Bremsdefekten betroffen. Auch Toro Rosso, Sauber, Marussia und Caterham hatten in diesem Jahr mit Bremsscheibenbrüchen zu tun. Toro Rosso drei, Sauber und Marussia je zwei Mal. Das Problem liegt im Material. Der Scheibenlieferant von Brembo hat sich in die Luftfahrtindustrie verabschiedet. Bei den kleinen Mengen in der Formel 1 lässt sich zu wenig verdienen.

Brembo musste einem neuen Fabrikanten vertrauen, der offenbar noch Schwierigkeiten hat, durchgehend gutes Material zu liefern. Es sind aber nicht alle Brembo-Kunden von dem Problem betroffen. Von Ferrari und Red Bull kommen keine Klagen. Bei Ferrari kennt man den Grund. Die Italiener haben ihr Lager klugerweise noch rechtzeitig mit den Scheiben aus dem letzten Jahr aufgefüllt.

Touche.

 However, this is nothing at all to do with what you said. Let me remind you "All brake failures for Mercedes happned with Brembo brakes." This article barely mentions Mercedes let alone attribute ALL brake failures to Brembo. Try again please.

Edited by EvilWarMachine, 20 July 2014 - 16:25.

[krea]

Touche.

 However, this is nothing at all to do with what you said. Let me remind you "All brake failures for Mercedes happned with Brembo brakes." This article barely mentions Mercedes let alone attribute ALL brake failures to Brembo. Try again please.

 

What do you want?

 

Mercedes had two brake discs failures. Rosberg's brake failure in Barcelona and yesterday. Both happened with Brembo discs.

[Ricardo F1]

What do you want?

 

Mercedes had two brake discs failures. Rosberg's brake failure in Barcelona and yesterday. Both happened with Brembo discs.

Yet they continue, according to Wolff, try both manufacturers regularly.  Stop making stuff up.

 

Lewis was fantastic today, other then the misjudgment with Jenson.  NIco put in the shade.  Funny about the lack of a safety car with Sutil, only in Germany.

Edited by Ricardo F1, 20 July 2014 - 16:53.

[krea]

Yet they continue, according to Wolff, try both manufacturers regularly.  Stop making stuff up.

 

Lewis was fantastic today, other then the misjudgment with Jenson.  NIco put in the shade.  Funny about the lack of a safety car with Sutil, only in Germany.

 

I trust Paddy Lowe more than Wolff in such technical questions.

Edited by krea, 20 July 2014 - 16:57.

[Ricardo F1]

I trust Paddy Lowe more than Wolff in such technical questions.

Paddy Lowe has said that Nico has never ever tried a Brembo brake since Barcelona?

[krea]

Paddy Lowe has said that Nico has never ever tried a Brembo brake since Barcelona?

 

He said that Hamilton general prefers the Brembo brakes.

 

And even if Rosberg was also using Brembo brakes after Barcelona it doesn't change the main argument. The high failure rate of the Brembo brakes are well known - see the link I posted. So turning the brake discussion into some weird luck discussion doesn't make sense. Hamilton knew the risk but he picked the Brembo brakes anyway - there is no way to turn it into a "Rosberg is so lucky" strawman argument.

[Ricardo F1]

He said that Hamilton general prefers the Brembo brakes.

 

And even if Rosberg was also using Brembo brakes after Barcelona it doesn't change the main argument. The high failure rate of the Brembo brakes are well known - see the link I posted. So turning the brake discussion into some weird luck discussion doesn't make sense. Hamilton knew the risk but he picked the Brembo brakes anyway - there is no way to turn it into a "Rosberg is so lucky" strawman argument.

It's an absurd argument.  There is no risk in picking Brembo brakes, that was a catastrophic brake failure that could have happened to anyone on the grid at any time - it was a faulty part.  It was bad luck for Hamilton, which in turn means it was fortunate for Nico.  He extended his lead in the Championship because his team mate got a faulty part.

[hollowstar]

Don't know if it has been said before
According to this french site, the break failure is the consequence of Hamilton driving.

http://www.toilef1.c...Hamilton-n.html

"La cause de la casse du frein de Lewis Hamilton en Allemagne est selon nous due à une sur-sollicitation faite par le pilote sur le MGU-K, dont le rôle consiste également à assumer une importante part du freinage. L’attribution de la casse peut ainsi être attribuée à une pression sur l’accélérateur exercée par Lewis Hamilton lors du freinage concerné, empêchant le système K d’entrer en action du mode charge et de ralentir à 50 % l’auto (les freins faisant le reste). 50 % d’énergie de freinage a donc été perdue. "


According to them, Hamilton keeps a pressure on the accelerator while beginning to use his breaks, this results in not letting the MGU K switching to "charge mode". In consequence, the car looses 50 % of the breaking from the MGU K.


Some additional explanations from Bill Suserg who consideres it was a driving error from Lewis
http://www.toilef1.c...rotege-par.html

Any word on what Rosberg did to break his gearbox?

[thesham01]

Don't know if it has been said before

According to this french site,  the break failure is the consequence of Hamilton driving.

 

http://www.toilef1.c...Hamilton-n.html

 

"La cause de la casse du frein de Lewis Hamilton en Allemagne est selon nous due à une sur-sollicitation faite par le pilote sur le MGU-K, dont le rôle consiste également à assumer une importante part du freinage. L’attribution de la casse peut ainsi être attribuée à une pression sur l’accélérateur exercée par Lewis Hamilton lors du freinage concerné, empêchant le système K d’entrer en action du mode charge et de ralentir à 50 % l’auto (les freins faisant le reste). 50 % d’énergie de freinage a donc été perdue.   "

 

 

According to them, Hamilton keeps a pressure on the accelerator while beginning to use his breaks, this results in not letting the MGU K switching to "charge mode". In consequence, the car looses 50 % of the breaking from the MGU K. 

 

 

Some additional explanations from Bill Suserg who consideres it was a driving error from Lewis

http://www.toilef1.c...rotege-par.html

 

Quotes from Brembo don't say anything of the sort, and they would have no issue with saying they suspect Hamilton is at fault. The article decided to interpret their quotes as blaming Hamilton. 

Edited by thesham01, 25 July 2014 - 17:06.

[OO7]

Don't know if it has been said before

According to this french site,  the break failure is the consequence of Hamilton driving.

 

http://www.toilef1.c...Hamilton-n.html

 

"La cause de la casse du frein de Lewis Hamilton en Allemagne est selon nous due à une sur-sollicitation faite par le pilote sur le MGU-K, dont le rôle consiste également à assumer une importante part du freinage. L’attribution de la casse peut ainsi être attribuée à une pression sur l’accélérateur exercée par Lewis Hamilton lors du freinage concerné, empêchant le système K d’entrer en action du mode charge et de ralentir à 50 % l’auto (les freins faisant le reste). 50 % d’énergie de freinage a donc été perdue.   "

 

 

According to them, Hamilton keeps a pressure on the accelerator while beginning to use his breaks, this results in not letting the MGU K switching to "charge mode". In consequence, the car looses 50 % of the breaking from the MGU K. 

 

 

Some additional explanations from Bill Suserg who consideres it was a driving error from Lewis

http://www.toilef1.c...rotege-par.html

Nonsense!  As Lewis lost control of the car, all wheels stopped rotating (were locked due to applied brake pressure) with the exception of the right front because it's disk had failed.

 

As for the other comments, I'd be very surprised if the author knows and understands the intricacies of the Mercedes or for that matter any of the teams electronic braking systems.  The explanation given appears to describe a very simple system, but I would think the complexities of the BBWs operation are far more involved.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 25 July 2014 - 17:25.

[baddog]

So the press conference on Lewis' brake failure consisted of Merc basically apologising to Brembo for saying it was their fault, but not saying what actually happened. Almost intriguing

[OO7]

So the press conference on Lewis' brake failure consisted of Merc basically apologising to Brembo for saying it was their fault, but not saying what actually happened. Almost intriguing

Baddog, where did you see this press conference?

[TomNokoe]

Brembo have come out and said it wasn't a quality control issue on their part, and both parties are a little confused as to what happened

[Lamag]

Mercedes and Brembo Press release

http://www.mercedesa...-disc-analysis/

 

If there were no problem with the brake disc, what caused the failure? A driving error maybe? At this point I don't know what to believe.

[SophieB]

From Autosport Live:

"09:24 AUTOSPORT contributor @adamcooperF1 reports on Twitter that Mercedes have confirmed that they are running Carbone Industrie brakes all round on both cars.
No sign of the Brembos that gave Hamilton so much grief in Germany, then."

[SophieB]

Mercedes and Brembo Press release
http://www.mercedesa...-disc-analysis/

If there were no problem with the brake disc, what caused the failure? A driving error maybe? At this point I don't know what to believe.

They either do not know or they will not say:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/115133

A statement issued by Mercedes said: "There is currently no clear evidence of a single cause of failure and our continuing rigorous analysis will take into account multiple factors which could have contributed to the incident.

"The results of this technical analysis will be communicated as soon as they are available."

(I know you have seen it, just putting the statement out in front.)

[f1fastestlap]

Mercedes and Brembo Press release

http://www.mercedesa...-disc-analysis/

 

If there were no problem with the brake disc, what caused the failure? A driving error maybe? At this point I don't know what to believe.

 

You just can't be impartial, can you?

How can a driver cause that failure? Oh, by braking you mean...

[1Devil1]

Mercedes and Brembo Press release

http://www.mercedesa...-disc-analysis/

 

If there were no problem with the brake disc, what caused the failure? A driving error maybe? At this point I don't know what to believe.

 

What driving error? Did you see it, actually, technical fault, perhaps overheating because of there ERS again. 

[OO7]

Mercedes and Brembo Press release

http://www.mercedesa...-disc-analysis/

 

If there were no problem with the brake disc, what caused the failure? A driving error maybe? At this point I don't know what to believe.

Cheers Lamag.

[baddog]

The one thing it was not was a fault in manufacturing.

 

I would suspect too many cooling holes drilled or not enough air to the disc. Merc pushing envelopes past manufacturer spec.

[SophieB]

Yes SophieB I think is better for us to wait and see what the technical analysis can reveal, at this point everything is very confusing.

I would suggest that includes speculating at this stage that it might be down to the driver, Lamag.

[SophieB]

The one thing it was not was a fault in manufacturing.
 
I would suspect too many cooling holes drilled or not enough air to the disc. Merc pushing envelopes past manufacturer spec.

You said yesterday how it has been confirmed it wasn't a quality control fault. Has this been actively stated by Brembo, or are you (not unreasonably) inferring it from the 'no single cause' stuff?

[TomNokoe]

This weekend in particular, both Hamilton and Rosberg have been warned numerous times of marginal brake temps on the short runs, so there must be some credence in the idea that Merc's brake cooling is bringing this on. Both running CI this weekend as well, so maybe that can put pay to any silly Hamilton/Brembo bad decision making theories.

[SophieB]

A belated answer to this, of sorts:
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/115537

"First of all, both parties can now confirm that the quality of the disc material was not a contributory factor," said a statement issued by the team.

"Instead, extensive analysis and experimentation has demonstrated that the specific interaction between the structure of the brake material in question and the brake mounting on the F1 W05 Hybrid was at the root of the failure."