139 replies to this topic

[Lazy]

 

https://twitter.com/...087863962357760

 

Will Buxton

My colleague @IcoF1 reporting that Boullier asked FIA to withdraw credential of journalist who asked team bosses if they'd race in N Korea.

6:38 PM - 26 Jul 2014

 

Reading AUTOSPORT's transcript, this appears to be referring to Ralf Bach from BILD.

 

 

 

 

 

Check out @willbuxton's Tweet: https://twitter.com/...094753211518977

Didn't happen.

 

 

Man who makes living reporting on F1 denies story that's harmful to F1.

 

 

If that's his motivation, why put the story out there in the first place?

[ensign14]

Because someone else was reporting it already.  Don't want to be scooped.

[Lazy]

Because someone else was reporting it already.  Don't want to be scooped.

I see, so he puts a story out there that's harmful to the reputation of F1 to enhance his reputation, then retracts it because it's harmful to F1 taking his reputation down below where it was before, whilst the damage to F1 has already been done?

 

[Lazy]

McLaren Soul ‏@McLaren_Soul  14h

(Re Boullier) Journalists who hear a rumour, spread it like fire, and later have to retract themselves from what they said. Hilarious.

Expand

[santori]

Seems about right to me. These guys have limited time and should be used to promote and discuss the sport. It isn't a playground for hippies.

 

Every 'developed' nation has a hand in war. Directly or indirectly.

The journo should be sacked for simply being stupid.

 

Of course every nation has a hand in war, and I'm no great fan of any Western government, but  there are degrees of horror and to use Western failings as a reason to not care about anything is absurd. But not as absurd as dismissing concerns about the ways F1 is being used as hippy childishness (especially when Bernie Ecclestone has been open about his admiration for Putin.)

 

That doesn't mean the Boullier allegations are true, of course.

Edited by santori, 27 July 2014 - 08:51.

[HP]

It is interesting, how touchy journos can be about their freedom of expression, while more often than not they have a profound impact on other peoples freedom with their reporting. Just as a starter. Why using North Korea as a talking point? Why is it that North Korea is being vilified, when I met some OK North Koreans (outside of their country?). Most of peoples ideas about certain countries are made not from personal experience, but from media here-say.

 

 

A lot of modern day press is out for headlines, and to antagonize. I understand the frustration. I understand why Horner lost his cool as well. F1 is losing popularity and viewers. Bernie is not helping the situation, for sure, he's probably making it worse. But the media continuously portraying in a negative light is extremely frustrating. It's not just about sport, this is an industry, just like many others, and lots of livelihoods are at stake.

 

The complaint is that races are taken away from "deserving" countries, and given to countries with "No fanbase or interest", and then Hockenheim has record low attendances. I don't understand it. 

 

How about trying to promote the sport. The old man is about to croak anyway. 

Someone should then ask Horner what his team is doing to promote "feel good" F1. Austria was certainly good, but why would he not have mentioned that as positive example? Missed opportunity that. And if I would have been Horner I'd take the opportunity to show what's being done. (That is if there anything is being done)

 

As for Boullier, what did Ron Dennis say about that?

 

I prefer the attitude of Monisha Kaltenborn who felt F1 was acting like a 'lame duck' in Germany. She appears to be self critical enough. Hopefully something positive will grow out from that.

[ensign14]

It is interesting, how touchy journos can be about their freedom of expression, while more often than not they have a profound impact on other peoples freedom with their reporting. Just as a starter. Why using North Korea as a talking point? Why is it that North Korea is being vilified, when I met some OK North Koreans (outside of their country?). Most of peoples ideas about certain countries are made not from personal experience, but from media here-say.

 

I might be the only person on this BB who has been to North Korea.  We were not allowed to fold the Pyongyang Times if doing so would crease the picture of Kim Jong-Il on the front page.

[Nustang70]

I understand the desire to keep politics out of F1, but in this case it's already political.  Countries like Russia or Bahrain sought F1 races for the legitimacy that such international events bestow.  

[Doughnut King]

 

I prefer the attitude of Monisha Kaltenborn who felt F1 was acting like a 'lame duck' in Germany. She appears to be self critical enough. Hopefully something positive will grow out from that.

 

I suspect that Sauber isn't in the healthiest position, and Kaltenborn looks at the future of F1 with some dread because more successful teams have gone to the wall in more prosperous times.

Edited by Doughnut King, 27 July 2014 - 09:36.

[brr]

I understand the desire to keep politics out of F1, but in this case it's already political.  Countries like Russia or Bahrain sought F1 races for the legitimacy that such international events bestow.  

 

F1 would become political if it started picking and choosing GP venues based on political reasons. Who would they consult on which countries are acceptable? You?

[muramasa]

It is interesting, how touchy journos can be about their freedom of expression, while more often than not they have a profound impact on other peoples freedom with their reporting. Just as a starter. Why using North Korea as a talking point? Why is it that North Korea is being vilified, when I met some OK North Koreans (outside of their country?). Most of peoples ideas about certain countries are made not from personal experience, but from media here-say.

Exactly. I detest this sort of teasing. What an insult to citizens in North Korea.

 

I might be the only person on this BB who has been to North Korea.  We were not allowed to fold the Pyongyang Times if doing so would crease the picture of Kim Jong-Il on the front page.

that's too famous story actually. That symbolizes sth but doesnt tell whole story. In countries like Thailand, you are not allowed to speak ill of the royal family and treat king portrait without respect as well.

From what i hear, people lives in NK are surprisingly "normal".

 

So what is your contribution to making things better for them? Saying how awful, how horrendous North Korea is doent change the situation, forever. I hear the new leader likes basketball and one basket player from US visiting NK sometimes. We need something like that, thrust a hole and keep channels to make them open up more. Someone need to take that role. Of course naive benevolance is harmful so we need to do it carefully, but accusing, mocking and threatening North Korea (or whatever countries for that matter) doesnt help either. To think that ruling class would just succumb to pressure and obey what others tell and open up everything giving up their whole interest is equally naive.

 

Besides, alot of why NK ended up in current situation is down to outsider and circumstantial factors. I dont need to tell which country is mostly responsible, do I? Of course Japan is responsible too.

 

I think racing in NK is completely fine. At least the capital seems safe enough, surely safer than few other F1 venues. Money? Greed? sure but what's different from racing in South Korea for example? Over there there's not enough background to hold F1 race yet but executed nonetheless due to organizers ego, sort of. Also for political minded, holdiing event like F1 can actually be a good leverage to persuade and make them to open up and follow international rule more. Why not? certainly a valid option if you indeed care about people lives and rights there, not about satisfying your sense of justice.

[Henrik B]

I find it hilarious that there are people who don't think F1/sport is political right now.

There are two types of race promoters - private ventures with limited state funding/support and races that in all practical purposes are run by the government. The British GP is a example of one, Bahrain of the other. The race in Azerb...Baku will be a government race, I have been led to believe Russia is also one of those. What type of race it is and how it is promoted/marketed makes a huge difference on how "political" it is.

Now, choosing to cancel a race in a country is no more a political move than choosing to run it in the first place. Going there and in effect endorsing the government IS a political stand. That boat has already sailed.

Edited by Henrik B, 27 July 2014 - 10:59.

[brett_sequeira]

Man who makes living reporting on F1 denies story that's harmful to F1.

 

 

There were differences - the US Navy didn't seek to loot the dead bodies or put the blame on mad Bahrainis or whatever.

no no everything the US does is perfect 

 

To say F1 or any sport is not political is very obtuse. If f1 was apolitical why have national anthems and national flags and ministers of the podium? Bernie is a very political animal and knows well how to play these games. Correct me if i am wrong, but i read an article which stated the Bernie and Putin were good pals and so Russia will happen. And while the teams and team staff may be safe and get some sort of protection for the local government, journalists are never extended such favours.

[Risil]

Exactly. I detest this sort of teasing. What an insult to citizens in North Korea.

 

That's okay. As far as they're concerned F1 has had a North Korean Grand Prix for the past 50 years.

[Fastcake]

That's okay. As far as they're concerned F1 has had a North Korean Grand Prix for the past 50 years.

With the Great Leader holding a 100% win record, after lapping the field 10 times every race.

[ensign14]

that's too famous story actually. That symbolizes sth but doesnt tell whole story. In countries like Thailand, you are not allowed to speak ill of the royal family and treat king portrait without respect as well.

From what i hear, people lives in NK are surprisingly "normal".

 

 

OK then.  A Canadian tourist was locked up for 2 weeks for asking why Kim Jong-Il was so fat.  People join the army because they are guaranteed to get fed.  The only lights visible at night are in Stalin Square and the Juche Tower because everything else is turned off.  Even the traffic lights do not work, hence the traffic police.  We were not allowed to talk to, or photograph, locals.  You can't mention "North" Korea, only Korea, or, in extremis, DPRK.  If you photograph a Kim Il-Sung statue, you have to get the whole body in, otherwise your photo is subject to deletion.  The old do not leave their flats if they are above about the third floor because there is no guarantee that the lifts will work - their tower blocks go up to 40+ floors.  And you can't just choose a flat; you are allocated one. 

 

I was given a 17 page briefing which I had to memorize before going - I could not take it into DPRK because that in itself would be offensive. 

[Nustang70]

F1 would become political if it started picking and choosing GP venues based on political reasons. Who would they consult on which countries are acceptable? You?

Well, that's a separate--and stickier--question.  My point was only that GP venues are sometimes already political, since political factors underlie the decision of some countries to pursue an F1 race.  

[BRG]

OK then.  A Canadian tourist was locked up for 2 weeks for asking why Kim Jong-Il was so fat.  People join the army because they are guaranteed to get fed.  The only lights visible at night are in Stalin Square and the Juche Tower because everything else is turned off.  Even the traffic lights do not work, hence the traffic police.  We were not allowed to talk to, or photograph, locals.  You can't mention "North" Korea, only Korea, or, in extremis, DPRK.  If you photograph a Kim Il-Sung statue, you have to get the whole body in, otherwise your photo is subject to deletion.  The old do not leave their flats if they are above about the third floor because there is no guarantee that the lifts will work - their tower blocks go up to 40+ floors.  And you can't just choose a flat; you are allocated one. 

 

I was given a 17 page briefing which I had to memorize before going - I could not take it into DPRK because that in itself would be offensive. 

Shush!  If Bernie hears this, it will be off to Pyongyang before you know it.  Finally a society that meets his extreme standards of organisation and neatness.

[ensign14]

You could have a brilliant street race in Kaesong.  Mediaeval backdrop, big undulations, broad roads, plenty of overtaking.

[MikeMM]

Do you think it's a good example to follow Mr Ecclestone everywhere he wants? Next question is when he would go to North Korea, would you follow him?

 

 

The funny thing is that all the journalists will follow F1 no matter what country  hosts grand prix.

 

So before asking this question this journalist must explain himself why does he follow Mr Ecclestone everywhere he wants?

Edited by MikeMM, 28 July 2014 - 09:12.

[Murl]

I understand the desire to keep politics out of F1, but in this case it's already political.  Countries like Russia or Bahrain sought F1 races for the legitimacy that such international events bestow.  

 

 

No kidding.

 

"bit keep the politics out of it!" the kiddies cry.

 

 

Well, GTFO of F1 Russia and wherever else has decided to buy a profile with blood money...for politics sake.

[muramasa]

OK then.  A Canadian tourist was locked up for 2 weeks for asking why Kim Jong-Il was so fat.  People join the army because they are guaranteed to get fed.  The only lights visible at night are in Stalin Square and the Juche Tower because everything else is turned off.  Even the traffic lights do not work, hence the traffic police.  We were not allowed to talk to, or photograph, locals.  You can't mention "North" Korea, only Korea, or, in extremis, DPRK.  If you photograph a Kim Il-Sung statue, you have to get the whole body in, otherwise your photo is subject to deletion.  The old do not leave their flats if they are above about the third floor because there is no guarantee that the lifts will work - their tower blocks go up to 40+ floors.  And you can't just choose a flat; you are allocated one. 

 

I was given a 17 page briefing which I had to memorize before going - I could not take it into DPRK because that in itself would be offensive. 

yeah. So? These are exactly what those books say about North Korea published like in mid 00s, some of them right, some of them wrong or exaggeration.

I know these and I know some of these are not fact, or at lease eased in the past 5 years or so, like taking photograph and travel. They choose visitors but after 2010 or so those visitors are allowed to walk around city, talk to citizens and take photos rather freely.  Yeah people's lives and customs should be quite different, but that's no wonder.

Canadian tourist locked up? like foreign national sometimes get jailed and deported in Thailand for insulting King? Join the army cos they are get fed, exactly same as USA. No lights at night, like many of underdeveloped countries. No traffic lights, yeah Nepal had no traffic lights as well when I been there in mid 00s. Many of those things are not special to North Korea.

 

So what's your point? Again what you can contribute for the better of the country? Just write negative things like this doesnt change anything, i'm telling you. Just keep satisfying yourself. You as a visitor should experience strange things as they require condition and  choose who to visit and what to show. Everything is propaganda there. Those things should be totally within expectation.

Surely less freedom there. but if you try to change everything at once, there would be catastrophe. Learned lessons from Iraq etc? It will cause turmoil for ordinary people. Maybe dethroned ruling class and army lose sanity in fear of their lives and status destroyed and push those missile buttons, who knows. Can you take responsibility for the consequence?

[ensign14]

muramasa, I never really like the argument that "you have to experience it to comment", that would make e.g. history impossible, but in the case of DPRK you do have to go. The hotel at which Pyongyang tourists stay is on an island in the Taedong so you can't get off an wander around.

And the difference with joining the army in the USA is that you can get fed if you don't join the army. In DPRK...not so much.

[ardbeg]

F1 would become political if it started picking and choosing GP venues based on political reasons. Who would they consult on which countries are acceptable? You?

Well, they are doing just that, in case you missed it. Politics are the reason countries like Bahrain give Bernie plenty of dough to promote their country. Money has a tendency to cover politics though, there's no transparency.

[PayasYouRace]

Granted, although technically that was the USSR. And there's been a pretty radical change not only in the political leadership, but the whole political and economic system in Russia since then, so of course the events of 31 years ago really don't have much to do with modern-day international relations involving Russia, and it's not an issue for F1 since it would have been considered unthinkable for a race to be held in Russia in 1983, either before the shoot-down or after it.

 

The early 80s was the high point of Bernie trying to get a race to happen in Moscow, or at least in Russia, but in the end it wasn't workable so the first Grand Prix beyond the Iron Curtain was in Hungary. It wasn't unthinkable, it was actually on the agenda.

[hittheapex]

It was a perfectly valid question, in essence it was asking if there was a limit to where F1 would go. I don't see it as singling out North Korea unfairly as such, a more brutal dictatorship, in my opinion, does not exist on this earth, even though the reporting on NK can resemble hysteria at times. I know that you wrote about the North Korean people ensign, they are, to an extent, separate from the government. I think there was certainly a public interest in asking the question, given the reaction over Bahrain.

[MikeMM]

First Horner and now Boullier think they should be able to control what the press talk about?  What next, hire a minister for propaganda? 

On the other hand journalists think they can decide in which country F1 should go?

What next, journalists give to mr Ecclestone a list of countries which they accept?

[Lemans]

Do you think it's a good example to follow Mr Ecclestone everywhere he wants? Next question is when he would go to North Korea, would you follow him?

 

 

The funny thing is that all the journalists will follow F1 no matter what country  hosts grand prix.

 

So before asking this question this journalist must explain himself why does he follow Mr Ecclestone everywhere he wants?

 

Again, what the reporter thinks or does is not the issue. It's not about him. The issue is what F1 and Ecclestone think and do.

[HP]

I might be the only person on this BB who has been to North Korea.  We were not allowed to fold the Pyongyang Times if doing so would crease the picture of Kim Jong-Il on the front page.

Ok, tell me the good things about NK. There must be bright things as well. Just focusing on the negatives isn't healthy. No country should be defined by politics alone.I'm sure with the requirement they gave you, I probably wouldn't have bothered to go there. I've had enough of going to it's bigger neighbour in 1989. However I got to know people, their culture, and understanding why they act they way they do. It's still sometimes foreign to me, but  I found I am a stranger wherever I go, except when I am home. See I was in the UK too, and found it a strange place as well. Because of politics I can move around more freely there which is nice, but again, politics isn't everything. Sure politics will creep into sport. U.S.A not going to Olympics in Russia during cold war. But what did change? Nothing.

 

And all I remember from that time is a little joke. Maybe that little joke helps to gain appreciation for looking at things differently. The US and Russia (UDSSR) had a sport competition between them. The US won. The next day the Russian newspaper stated. We finished glorious 2nd, the US only managed to come 2nd to last.

 

Back to F1. Quite obviously F1 would have a huge challenge in NK and I seriously doubt that even BE could hammer out a deal that is agreeable. But then the entire world went to Berlin under Hitler doing Olympics in 1936. So in the end who knows, besides my doubts, it would be quite a thing if politics could take a backstage (even just for appearances) over a sporting event. Besides, what would change for anyone in North Korea if there was a F1 race? Not much. So then why are some people outside of NK so negative? You might not like the answer, but here it is my take. Because for some people politics is more important than people in general, and for those people it doesn't matter if they reign in NK or in a so called free nation. In connection, it's quite fascinating the tools the NSA owns to manipulate politics, even voting, etc... That's not a dig at the US, but it just shows what free governments are all about. Certainly not about the freedom of the individual.

 

Here on this BB we often have conspiracy theories, most of them have their roots in F1 politics. Funny that, it appears very few people trust in politics and by extension in any form of government. So then for all it's worth let them race in North Korea. Coming to think of it, I'd be even willing to do the same things you were asked of, to be able to enter the country, just to attend the race. I have learned to adjust to other peoples cultures and customs, so I am sure I can handle that too. I'm living under a king, so what?

[MikeMM]

It was a perfectly valid question, in essence it was asking if there was a limit to where F1 would go. I don't see it as singling out North Korea unfairly as such, a more brutal dictatorship, in my opinion, does not exist on this earth, even though the reporting on NK can resemble hysteria at times. I know that you wrote about the North Korean people ensign, they are, to an extent, separate from the government. I think there was certainly a public interest in asking the question, given the reaction over Bahrain.

First Mr Ecclestone has never expressed desire to bring F1 in NK.

Journalist just made it up.

Second why didnt he ask Mr Ecclestone himself?

[MikeMM]

Again, what the reporter thinks or does is not the issue. It's not about him. The issue is what F1 and Ecclestone think and do.

Why ask team principles then?

That is why Boulier was upset in the first place.

This journalist had issues with Ecclestone but he decided to annoy other people who has nothing to do with  this.

Edited by MikeMM, 28 July 2014 - 13:08.

[ardbeg]

On the other hand journalists think they can decide in which country F1 should go?

What next, journalists give to mr Ecclestone a list of countries which they accept?

You are a bit unlucky when you're thinking. Or maybe you do not really know what a 'journalist' is and kind of job he is supposed to do?

[Lemans]

Why ask team principles then?

That is why Boulier was upset in the first place.

This journalist had issues with Ecclestone but he decided to annoy other people who has nothing to do with  this.

 

God forbid we "annoy" the team principals. We wouldn't want to inconvenience those in power with a difficult question. The poor souls.

Honestly, I think you're really missing the point.

[hittheapex]

First Mr Ecclestone has never expressed desire to bring F1 in NK.

Journalist just made it up.

Second why didnt he ask Mr Ecclestone himself?

One of the key points in my post was that the journalist was exploring the limit of where F1 would go to. I know Bernie hasn't expressed a desire to go to North Korea. While it's fair to say why didn't he ask Bernie, I think I'm right in believing that he is not as easy to get hold of as the team principals with their regular press conferences. Further, Bernie can do what he likes but if the team principals decide not to pack the cars on the planes, it becomes a moot point. Bernie still wanted to race at Bahrain, but the teams decided they would not go, shortly after the Foreign and Commonwealth Office changed the travel advice for Bahrain, which had the affect of rendering a typical travel insurance policy invalid.

[mclarensmps]

It is interesting, how touchy journos can be about their freedom of expression, while more often than not they have a profound impact on other peoples freedom with their reporting. Just as a starter. Why using North Korea as a talking point? Why is it that North Korea is being vilified, when I met some OK North Koreans (outside of their country?). Most of peoples ideas about certain countries are made not from personal experience, but from media here-say.

 

Someone should then ask Horner what his team is doing to promote "feel good" F1. Austria was certainly good, but why would he not have mentioned that as positive example? Missed opportunity that. And if I would have been Horner I'd take the opportunity to show what's being done. (That is if there anything is being done)

 

As for Boullier, what did Ron Dennis say about that?

 

I prefer the attitude of Monisha Kaltenborn who felt F1 was acting like a 'lame duck' in Germany. She appears to be self critical enough. Hopefully something positive will grow out from that.

 

I just think the internal politics of F1 work in such a way, that the teams are afraid to lose the status quo, and most likely they feel that if they rock the boat, they may lose their position of strength. I actually agree with you that the teams are probably not doing enough, in order to make the situation better. The fact that FOTA was dissolved showed as much. 

 

I don't actually have a solution to this problem, obviously, but I was just thinking out loud that it can be frustrating to constantly be asked negative questions about your work.

 

Having said that, as much as I dislike the Red Bull F1 team, they did play a good part in making the sport just that little bit more accessible for the fans by adopting social media with open arms, introducing that paddock parody magazine (I forget it's name), and a bunch of other public PR stunts. The other teams basically followed their lead in bringing the sport closer to the fans. 

 

To be honest, I think the on track racing has been great, the past few seasons. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to see a race live this year, so I still don't have a good bearing on how the cars sound in the flesh, however, I've kind of gotten used to the whiney turbo sound on TV.

 

That's not to say everything's fine and dandy, far from it, but I much prefer this to what we had in the heavy Aero era, for example (early-mid '00s)

[Slartibartfast]

On the other hand journalists think they can decide in which country F1 should go?
What next, journalists give to mr Ecclestone a list of countries which they accept?

I didn't realise that it is an "either/or" situation.

Oh, hang on… it isn't.

[Mila]

Ship Flavio off to run North Korea, and recruit Kim Jong-un to head the F1-popularity campaign.

 

Don't forget to sell the story rights to Disney.

 

[Buttoneer]

Please everyone I do appreciate that the issues are all tied in together but the discussion should be about Boullier threatening to revoke the journalists licence (and the truth of that story) and not about how shit or great North Korea is.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Hey, at least North Korea is confirmed to exist.

[AlexS]

I doubt that Boulier did it if there wasn't some story going on before.
It is not like that Boulier has to take the F1 pains or have a job as director of F1 image to go to such extreme.

 

 

.....No country should be defined by politics alone....

 

A totalitarian ideology by definition controls almost everything in a country. So yes North Korea is one of the countries that can be best defined by politics. Because politics control almost everything there.