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Deliberate Tampering with regs to gain a sporting advantage?


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#51 SophieB

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 19:15

Just out of interest, how many instances can we remember where a team deliberately fell foul of the regulations to gain a sporting advantage?

I will start

April 2014. Red Bull took issue with the accuracy of the FIA’s fuel flow sensors and proposed its own model for estimating the fuel flow at the season opener. Surprisingly the court of appeal found Red Bull’s own interpretation of its data concurred with the view that Ricciardo’s car had breached the rules. “The appellant’s own estimation of its car number three’s [fuel flow rate] in Melbourne also showed that that car exceeded the [fuel flow limit] during the Australian Grand Prix,” noted the verdict.I t further pointed out Red Bull was not at liberty to choose a system of measurement it preferred.

Nov 2012. Ferrari deliberately broke the gearbox seal on Massa's car at Austin, to put him five places back, and Alonso onto the clean side. The Brazilian was set to line up sixth on the grid, two places ahead of his team-mate Fernando Alonso. Their positions meant they would be starting on the dirty side of the grid - which looked like being a huge disadvantage because of the slippery nature of the track off line. Massa was put down to 11th, while Alonso moved up to seventh spot - crucially on the clean side of the track.

Crashgate. September 2008, on the fourteenth lap of the Singapore race, the Renault R28 driven by Piquet crashed into the circuit wall at turn seventeen, necessitating a safety car deployment. This allowed the other Renault driver, Fernando Alonso, to make an early pitstop and subsequently gain the advantage to win the race after starting 15th on the grid. Piquet described his crash at the time as a simple mistake.

2005. Bar 007. After a routine check of the car's weight, the team was disqualified in Imola and banned for a further 2 Grand Prix', including the GP of Monaco. The Honda engineers had designed the fuel tank so the car would pass scrutineering easily before the race but could run underweight during it. As such, the FIA deemed that the car was illegal as it was designed to use fuel as ballast.


Your first two examples are so different from your second two though. The first examples are examples of a team not making any effort to conceal what they were setting out to achieve. In the first instance, RBR thought they would be found retrospectively to have had a case for having the regulation found to be unfair and thus their actions would be deemed reasonable afterwards. Ferrari obviously were actively counting on being hit with the sporting punishment. Hamilton overtaking the safety car at Valencia in 2010 seems another example in this vein. Even with the penalty applied, it didn't offset the gains from the offence.

The other two just seem to be teams trying to get away with straight up cheating, actively concealing what they were up to. This seems less interesting although maybe only so to me. Tread lightly if you want to supply examples of this one, guys. No libel, please.

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#52 Lotus53B

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 19:20

Tyrell and lead shot, and cooling water that was flammable - 1984...



#53 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 19:33

How about Wales Rally GB 2005 as an example of deliberately manipulating regs for a sporting disadvantage? That was an interesting situation, I thought. I can't find right now what they did exactly to incur the penalty.

 You mean Loeb / Elena...after Beef's fatal accident....didn't want to clinch the World title that event as it couldn't be celebrated properly, so they deliberately clocked into a MTC [Main Time Control] early / late to incur road penalties that dropped them from 1st to 3rd....leaving Solberg / Mills as the winner. Loeb / Elena clinched the title the next round... 



#54 CSquared

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 19:57

 You mean Loeb / Elena...after Beef's fatal accident....didn't want to clinch the World title that event as it couldn't be celebrated properly, so they deliberately clocked into a MTC [Main Time Control] early / late to incur road penalties that dropped them from 1st to 3rd....leaving Solberg / Mills as the winner. Loeb / Elena clinched the title the next round... 

That's the one. I thought it was a MTC check, but the stuff I've looked up said all the stages after Beef's accident were cancelled, so it seemed like there wouldn't be any more time control checks. 



#55 Murraytastic

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 21:51

I've noticed a few occasions when teams have retired a car running out of the points towards the end of a race, for somewhat spurious reasons, and then fitted a brand new gearbox at the next race.

 

Jenson Button's retirement from Malaysia 2013 springs to mind, although there are other examples I can't recall (or be bothered to google for)



#56 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 21:59

The following could be classed as gaining an advantage, but its not in F1 or WRC ....it's in the British Touring Car Championship. Each meeting has multiple races, currently 3, the last of which is reversed grid based on the results of the preceeding race.In the early days of this happening, teams and drivers used to know that whoever finished  6th / 7th / 8th would be on pole for the last race......Jason Plato, I think it was, cottoned on to this quickly, came through the field to 8th, then held station, deliberately didn't overtake anyway after that, thereby ensuring he got pole for the last race. After that, other drivers copied him.....so they introduced the "number out of a hat" scenario whereby the winner of the preceeding race [or a visiting celebrity] drew a numbered ball out of hat....the balls being numbered 6 - 10. 



#57 midgrid

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 22:00

In 2004, qualifying consisted of two sessions with a single lap for every driver in each.  The first session was run in the championship order and in turn set the running order for the second session, with the slowest cars in the first session running first in the second.  This was all well and good as it was almost always advantageous to run right at the end of the second session, when the track was fully rubbered-in.  However, the weather forecast for the Saturday of the British Grand Prix predicted rain during the second session, so several drivers deliberately slowed down whilst on their laps during the first session.  Most simply eased off on the start-finish straight, but Michael Schumacher had a highly suspicious spin at Brooklands.



#58 midgrid

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 22:05

The following could be classed as gaining an advantage, but its not in F1 or WRC ....it's in the British Touring Car Championship. Each meeting has multiple races, currently 3, the last of which is reversed grid based on the results of the preceeding race.In the early days of this happening, teams and drivers used to know that whoever finished  6th / 7th / 8th would be on pole for the last race......Jason Plato, I think it was, cottoned on to this quickly, came through the field to 8th, then held station, deliberately didn't overtake anyway after that, thereby ensuring he got pole for the last race. After that, other drivers copied him.....so they introduced the "number out of a hat" scenario whereby the winner of the preceeding race [or a visiting celebrity] drew a numbered ball out of hat....the balls being numbered 6 - 10. 

It was Plato!  It was 2004 and at the Thruxton season-opener.  In fact, the grid reverse initially applied to Race 2, so it was more important than it is now.  Plato used this tactic to win more races than anyone else that season in Seat's comeback season, although he was not a contender for the championship.  In 2005 the grid reverse was moved back to Race 3 (although it was still the top ten every time), and the number of positions to be reversed was randomised in 2006.

 


Edited by midgrid, 28 July 2014 - 22:05.


#59 R Soul

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 22:43

I think the example of the Ferrari gearbox change is the sort of thing that best matches the thread title. The Jason Plato thing above is also a good one. What these have in common is that a deliberate hit was taken to gain an advantage later on.

 

Another type of tampering is when a midfield F1 driver scrapes in to Q3 and then doesn't run, thus saving a set of tyres. I'm sure Force India have done it in the past but I can't think of any specific examples. Again, there's no attempt to conceal it, and no protest of innocence because 'not trying their best' gave them an advantage.

 

Another one that springs to mind is a British GP qualifying session when the one-shot system was being used, with the drivers first doing laps to determine the one shot order. The fastest driver in round 1 went last in round 2. In dry conditions going last was clearly what they all wanted, but I think rain was predicted for the end of round 2 so every driver tied to go slowest in round 1 to go first in round 2. :stoned:

The two Ferrari drivers deliberately spun after Bridge.



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#60 PlatenGlass

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 22:57

I've noticed a few occasions when teams have retired a car running out of the points towards the end of a race, for somewhat spurious reasons, and then fitted a brand new gearbox at the next race.
 
Jenson Button's retirement from Malaysia 2013 springs to mind, although there are other examples I can't recall (or be bothered to google for)

I think the BARs quite blatantly pulled out on the last lap at Australia a number of years ago when Button was driving for them to get a free engine change or something. I don't think it was illegal though.

In 2000 at Montreal, McLaren carried on working on Coulthard's car on the grid after the last time allowed (a safety rule) because the 10 second stop/go wasn't as bad as starting from the back or the pitlane, wherever he would have had to start.

Possibly slightly tangential, but I think there were suspicions that both Renaults were running with half fuel at the 1985 Dutch GP just to look good, and both had to pull out mid-race. On a similar note, when most of the drivers came into the pits at the end of the warm-up lap at the 2005 US GP to retire, I think Trulli was due in for fuel anyway.

Also at Spa in 2005, when the McLarens were 1-2 behind the safety car, one of them dropped back to give the other one space to make a free pitstop. That seemed a bit dubious at the time. But you are allowed to overtake under the safety car if the car in front has a mechanical problem, and I thought at the time that it would have been reasonable grounds for that assumption. I wonder what would have happened.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 28 July 2014 - 23:00.


#61 Collombin

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 06:31

Possibly slightly tangential, but I think there were suspicions that both Renaults were running with half fuel at the 1985 Dutch GP just to look good, and both had to pull out mid-race.


Now I wonder which of their drivers gave them that idea?!

#62 skid solo

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 21:52

I don't think there have been many Ferrari/Massa style incidents where a team looks to get a penalty on purpose. I guess we are looking for deliberate acts where teams are knowingly breaking the regulations. Not grey areas as such. I believe red bull felt the systems in place were unreliable but still they knowingly broke the rules.

#63 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 23:13

Back to the WRC.....there have been many instances of drivers slowing on the last stage of a day / stopping to change a wheel etc to ensure they wouldn't be leading at the end of that day, so wouldn't be running 1st on the road the next. The time they lost would easily be regained if they ran 4/5th on the road as the earlier cars would sweep the gravel / stones from the stages... ):



#64 ensign14

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:16

Sportscar racing in 1982.  Because Group C was a new thing, the world drivers' title was open to drivers of all cars, not just the Group C ones.  So Lancia built a car that did not comply with the Group C regs so Patrese could win it.  Didn't work...



#65 PlatenGlass

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 13:04

Now I wonder which of their drivers gave them that idea?!

I'd forgetten - Warwick had the same at Brands in 1982 didn't he?

#66 PlatenGlass

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 13:05

Back to the WRC.....there have been many instances of drivers slowing on the last stage of a day / stopping to change a wheel etc to ensure they wouldn't be leading at the end of that day, so wouldn't be running 1st on the road the next. The time they lost would easily be regained if they ran 4/5th on the road as the earlier cars would sweep the gravel / stones from the stages... ):

Does that still go on? You'd think they'd have somehow worked out how to fix it by now. It's moronic.

#67 Nemo1965

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 19:10

To the topic-starter:

 

If you are interested in this subject, I would really advise to read 'The secret advantage' by Mark Donohue. It is very technical sometimes, but it shows fantastically how Penske and his buddies (including Mark) could often beat bigger teams by being more prepared... and often a bit cheeky!

 

But the nice thing is that all the examples of this book are not cheating the regs, but exactly 'tampering', playing with them. Not like the team that build an exact replica of a roadcar (to be allowed to a roadcar-series), in the scale of 9/10...

 

:rotfl:



#68 ElDictatore

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 21:58

 

Also at Spa in 2005, when the McLarens were 1-2 behind the safety car, one of them dropped back to give the other one space to make a free pitstop. That seemed a bit dubious at the time. But you are allowed to overtake under the safety car if the car in front has a mechanical problem, and I thought at the time that it would have been reasonable grounds for that assumption. I wonder what would have happened.

 

Ah yes i remember that