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dear bernie and flavio I realised at 8 pm last night why F1 is unpopular


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#1 mariner

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 11:17

Yesterday I went to the Silverstone classic, over 400 photos attest to the quality and size of the grids and I finally got to see group C cars run at dusk, exhausts flashing and brake discs glowing but that’s for the Nostalgia forum, my point here is different.

 

The Classic uses the older national paddock for the morning races and the new international "Bernie wing building” paddock for the afternoon races.

 

The national paddock is nowadays pretty user friendly - permanent cafe, bar, plenty of toilets and even showers. It’s a short walk through the Copse tunnel to the outside grandstands for race viewing.

 

In contrast the international paddock has no access to permanent toilets, no drinking water, and no proper cafe. For all afternoon in 30 degree C weather your only food and drink were four mobile burger and coffee bars, and only portable toilets to use. To get to the grandstands opposite is a nearly one mile walk back through the main circuit entrance.

 

My first instinct was to moan at Silverstone for such a shortage of facilities at the "Bernie" paddock versus the old, national one. Then it dawned on me - the whole Bernie paddock complex built at huge cost to Silverstone is simply not ever intended for public access. The only people who will ever use it are the F1 circus. They can get access to the F1 Paddock club for food and drink. All the teams and corporate guests will use the team’s massive mobile hospitality rigs to eat drink etc.

 

Suddenly I realised that the whole F1 world is now so isolated from the public that they arrive at a circuit and live in a complete bubble world devoid of any contact with the public who pay them. What is more they see it as their absolute right to have £27M spent on facility which only they will ever have access to.

 

Sorry for a rant but it is now so obvious to me why F1 cannot fix its popularity problems - they have become so isolated and pampered as individuals they never even see any race fans. Marie Antionette and eating cake come to mind as the most probably recommendation of the new popularity working group.


Edited by mariner, 27 July 2014 - 11:36.


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#2 spacekid

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 11:31

Good post, I 100% agree. When Bernie threatens established classic races because they need to improve their 'facilities' he is talking about fancy-pants hotels at Abu Dhabi. It has zero to do with the experience for the fans. I certainly share your opinion of Silverstone, I remember being directed to take a leak against a tree as there were not proper toilet facilities (why would I expect that for a £200 ticket). I also remember being at vale looking at a new complex for Celebs or whatever, occupied by people entirely ignoring the racing.

It's obvious that the focus is on F1 as a TV sport. Problem is, for me at least, the fans at the track really do contribute to the atmosphere, vibe, TV picture and my overall enjoyment of the product.

Oh well, at least there's Azerbaijan to look forward to.

#3 Risil

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 11:37

I certainly share your opinion of Silverstone, I remember being directed to take a leak against a tree as there were not proper toilet facilities (why would I expect that for a £200 ticket). I also remember being at vale looking at a new complex for Celebs or whatever, occupied by people entirely ignoring the racing.

 

The right crowd and no crowding indeed. Or as Gloria Steinem might've put it, we're all the wrong crowd now.



#4 hittheapex

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 14:20

Absolutely right. My first race was Korea 2011 and while I enjoyed the race, it was overpriced.Not much of a support race or demonstration program to keep the crowd entertained. Catering was limited to a hot water machine and instant noodles. Went to the Donington Historic Festival last year and for half the price, if that, had a full 3 days racing, can walk through the paddock, proper catering.

 

I understand F1 can't open up the paddock for free to everybody at once (perhaps some kind of lottery could be done in an ideal world), but the point is that F1 has become too expensive proportionate to other events in my opinion. Would I say no to an F1 ticket? Absolutely not, but when it's possible to go get several full days, as opposed to half an afternoon of racing, I won't be giving Bernie another pound of my money.


Edited by hittheapex, 27 July 2014 - 14:21.


#5 chunder27

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 15:40

I thought about going to the Classic, until I saw the ticket prices, which for a group of largely amateur racers going fairly slowly a lot of the time didn't seem good value. I remember going only a few years back and it was a great day out, used to go with me Dad and had great fun cheering the underdog and booing Sytner.

 

When you can go to Brands Masters for half the price and see cars much closer, pretty much the same drivers, just with a few marquee cars missing on a much nicer track, or Donington as earleir mentioned.

 

it is clear as intrallying historic motorsport is the boom category currently, auction prices are through the roof adn these are the poeple racing or being present to think they are racing.

 

Oh and you are not subsidising some halfwit pop star at Brands.

 

But tens of thousands must be right as it seems to get massive crowds, this Classic malarky.

 

I am just in the minority for feeling that it doesn't offer good value.

 

But then again I thought that about Goodwood a decade ago!!  So clearly this ain't ever going to work!!

 

 

Regarding F1, it will only ever change when cretinous wannabe's find something else to spend their money on. Quite why anyone would spend 200 quid to watch that tripe is beyond me. it's more expensive than a festival, most other sports tickets that aren't in posh seats.

 

But, until folk stop going they will keep doing it, wouldn't you?  I certainly would and be laughing all the way to the bank in the process while working out what I can get away with next year. As fans you only have yourself to blame.

 

remember they charged 30 quid for testing for Christ sake.


Edited by chunder27, 27 July 2014 - 15:45.


#6 Lotus53B

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 15:46

If you look up tickets for the F1 paddock club, they give a series of reasons for buying your $5000 ticket - doing business and networking are top.  I think "watching F1" is about 5th or 6th on the list.

Says it all, IMO.



#7 spacekid

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 18:56

Regarding F1, it will only ever change when cretinous wannabe's find something else to spend their money on. Quite why anyone would spend 200 quid to watch that tripe is beyond me. it's more expensive than a festival, most other sports tickets that aren't in posh seats.

But, until folk stop going they will keep doing it, wouldn't you? I certainly would and be laughing all the way to the bank in the process while working out what I can get away with next year. As fans you only have yourself to blame.

remember they charged 30 quid for testing for Christ sake.


Given that the only post about F1 prices was me, referring to paying £200 for a ticket to watch F1, I can only see this as being enormously offensive.

Who the **** do you think you are?

#8 northanmonkee2

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 19:13

reverting back to free to air and reducing ticket prices so average family doesn't need  to take out a mortgage to watch the event .

Sort this out for whole of Motorsport and  interest will rise and so will revenue through

greater participation and happier sponsors 

the actual racing is fine and needs no interference .



#9 chunder27

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 19:46

You can take offence if you want sir, but the post I made was not referencing you. It was referencing the tens of thousands who for some unGodly reason fork out to watch f1 at Silverstone.

 

And to be honest if I took offence at all the garbage directed at me on here I would probably have killed myself.

 

But take offence if you like, it wasnt aimed at you.



#10 chrcol

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 19:53

yeah this has been obvious for a while, I shiver when I see the normal fans seperated by a mesh fence which is lined with security guards from the pit lane, whilst those rich people who paid 5k a pop walk freely around the pitlane etc.

 

When the podium is done post race and see the crowds cheering below the podium, thats usually team members and corporate guests.

 

That revamp at silverstone was basically just the rich man's paddock area, as I understand the normal facilities have had zilch done on them.



#11 spacekid

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 20:12

You can take offence if you want sir, but the post I made was not referencing you. It was referencing the tens of thousands who for some unGodly reason fork out to watch f1 at Silverstone.

And to be honest if I took offence at all the garbage directed at me on here I would probably have killed myself.

But take offence if you like, it wasnt aimed at you.


If you want to call ordinary race fans who spend their hard earned to watch an F1 race 'cretinous wannabes' I'm not surprised you get garbage directed at you. Nasty attitude you have there.

Edited by spacekid, 27 July 2014 - 20:13.


#12 chunder27

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 21:22

To be brutally honest.

 

If you are spending "hard earned" on that, then in my mind you need your head looking at, when you could probably spend that money on 7 or 8 race meetings of many kinds over Britain and find bettter racing, facilities the same and friendlier paddocka nd accesibility.

 

It has never been what you would call a decent value day out, even back in the day when I used to managed to go to qualifying!

 

It's an event to be seen at for a lot of people, an event to wear your merchandise and not look a complete berk!

 

But for a day out or a week out there are countless better options, festivals, top level sports events where you can see all the action and not sit on aggregate.

 

I do not classify myself as an ordinary race fan as you call it, an ordinary man yes.  And for me and most people like me, 200 qud to watch any kind of sporting event is too much.  My rugby team got to two big finals this year and both times tickets were nearly 100 quid. Half the price, but with travelling etc that was  bit much too.

 

And to be perfectly honest, if folk like you are prepared to spend that kind of money or more on F1 then nothing will change, that is where my frustration is born out. You say yourself how poor it is, yet you still go?  Proves a point huh.



#13 chipmcdonald

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 01:01

If you have a situation, like with the Augusta National where the tickets are *always* sold out... then maybe one can act pompous about ticket prices.

 

When you've got empty seats and you're asking a stupid premium - that is 1%'er cluelessness in action. 

 

"Oh, but a ticket price is no more than pocket change" is probably how the hoi polloi inside F1 think.   "I can imagine why people are not rushing in their private jets to F1 events, fuh fuh fuh fuh"...

 

 



#14 alfa1

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 01:07

Would I say no to an F1 ticket? Absolutely not, but when it's possible to go get several full days, as opposed to half an afternoon of racing, I won't be giving Bernie another pound of my money.

 

Bernie doesn't take your ticket money.

 

What everyone here has missed is that the circuit takes the ticket money.  Its about the only way they have left to gain an income since Bernie has the rights to everything else.

 

Bernie would be happy to have races at a circuit with no spectators at all.  He doesnt get income that way.  For him, its all about TV.



#15 Alexis*27

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:23

What is this obsession with 'getting close to the fans'?

 

I have no desire to meet any drivers and they can hardly give thousands of people guided tours around the paddock. The Thursday pit lane walk is fine and I don't care if some toffs fancy paying through the nose to have their tea and not watch the race. 

 

As long as I don't have to witness any interviews with airhead women who have got onto the grid, I'm not fussed.


Edited by Alexis*27, 28 July 2014 - 08:23.


#16 Hans V

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:01

Very good post. I haven't been to an F1 race for over 15 years, as I decided I will not pay through the nose to be treated like cattle, and not getting remotely near the action. I've been to hundreds of race meetings from local hill climds to F1, CART and LeMans (NASCAR is missing on my CV though - I'd love to go to Bristol some time) and getting near the action, walk in the paddock, look at the machines up close, see the machanics work, smell the the atmosphere (Castrol R should be mandatory...) is the experience for me. Or off course driving myself in my old 911 on a track day. I've reached the advanced age where I'm getting obsessed with classic cars and classic racing thus has stronger appeal than contemporary F1. I still love F1 despite all its faults, but don't think going to a race is worth all the money and hassle - and I'd much rather go to LeMans, Indy or a NASCAR race.    

 

It must, however, be painful for Bernie to realise that even in UK, the heartland of F1, the Goodwood Revival Meeting and the Goodwood festival of Speed with an attendance limited to 150.000 are now bigger events than the F1 race.  



#17 LookButDontStare

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:07

To be brutally honest.

 

If you are spending "hard earned" on that, then in my mind you need your head looking at, when you could probably spend that money on 7 or 8 race meetings of many kinds over Britain and find bettter racing, facilities the same and friendlier paddocka nd accesibility.

 

It has never been what you would call a decent value day out, even back in the day when I used to managed to go to qualifying!

 

It's an event to be seen at for a lot of people, an event to wear your merchandise and not look a complete berk!

 

But for a day out or a week out there are countless better options, festivals, top level sports events where you can see all the action and not sit on aggregate.

 

I do not classify myself as an ordinary race fan as you call it, an ordinary man yes.  And for me and most people like me, 200 qud to watch any kind of sporting event is too much.  My rugby team got to two big finals this year and both times tickets were nearly 100 quid. Half the price, but with travelling etc that was  bit much too.

 

And to be perfectly honest, if folk like you are prepared to spend that kind of money or more on F1 then nothing will change, that is where my frustration is born out. You say yourself how poor it is, yet you still go?  Proves a point huh.

80 min of Rugby for £100, 3 days of Motorsport £200................think i would rather be a berk :eek:



#18 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:12

The best crowd and atmosphere I've ever seen at Silverstone was the World Series by Renault event a few years back. And it was free. The only thing that made the GP better was the Red Arrows display centred right above my head at Maggots and the sound of the V10s at the end of the hanger straight. F1 has lost 50% of that appeal and now costs 50% more compared to 2005 when I went.

 

I won't be going back! Until someone offers me celeb PC treatment tickets, hear the new facilities and prawn sandwiches are awesome!


Edited by Tenmantaylor, 28 July 2014 - 12:14.


#19 chunder27

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:01

Good point well made tenman

 

My Dad went ot that too and his only complaint was the queuing!

 

Staggering that it costs 50% more too. I was aware it had gone up a lot, but hells teeth thats a lot.

 

The thing with comparing to rugby or football is wrong, I didnt pay 100 quid for a ticket actually, I watched it on telly thankfully as we lost both times!

 

But, you are investing in a team, you support them. I guess a lot of fans go to Silverstone supporting Lewis, Jenson or a team, but do you get that same feeling of up and down at F1 as you do in team sports like rugby, cricket or football. They are so much more individual.

 

And look at Golf as an example of a three day sport, I wouldn't know off hand but last time I looked it was the same price every day to go to the Open?  And half the field are eliminated after two days.  But it was reasonable value if you like golf.  And I would far rather watch teh pinacle of a sport for the same money as a amateur race meeting.


Edited by chunder27, 28 July 2014 - 13:02.


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#20 Kraken

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:14

Personally I don't understand why people are so hung up on F1. It's been all about money for decades and is nothing to do with the average Joe. The older I get the more the money that is spent by the teams on needless areas and the money grabbing by FOM makes me feel sick.

 

I'd much rather spend £13 to watch a day of mixed classes at a club event.



#21 D28

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 14:11

 I'd love to go to Bristol some time) and getting near the action, walk in the paddock, look at the machines up close, see the machanics work, smell the the atmosphere (Castrol R should be mandatory...) is the experience for me. 

 

That's it exactly.

 

What is this obsession with 'getting close to the fans'?

 

I have no desire to meet any drivers and they can hardly give thousands of people guided tours around the paddock. The Thursday pit lane walk is fine and I don't care if some toffs fancy paying through the nose to have their tea and not watch the race. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

F1 managed it nicely in the past, as any number of photos from the 60s-80s will attest. The pre-night walk through the garage/paddock at Watkins Glen or Mosport was a must for serious enthusiasts.I never did see or meet any drivers, but closeness to the cars and mechanics was priceless. I attended my last GP when all access to cars and preparation was sealed off.

This is where NASCAR and possibly Indycar have such a huge advantage over F1 in the American market. Whatever one thinks of the racing, NASCAR has been brilliant at marketing. They have pitched there series to average family demographic, highlighting  reasonable prices, RV camping, music, driver access tailgate parties and plain fun. Most of these are anathema to Bernie and friends of course, but that is where the competition is.


Edited by D28, 28 July 2014 - 15:09.


#22 tifosi

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 14:24

Formula One is no different than other major entertainment activities.

A Washington Capitals hockey game, cost $125 for any type of decent seat.  Then you have the $11 (flat) beer, the $15 Chicken Fingers. 

I wanted to go to Fleetwood Mac's current tour but as the cheapest tickets I can find (that offer a reasonable seat) are north of $350 I better be sleeping with Stevie Nicks.

 

 

Just isn't worth it anymore.  I'll stick to the ponys for my entertainment. 



#23 hittheapex

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 15:17

Bernie doesn't take your ticket money.

 

What everyone here has missed is that the circuit takes the ticket money.  Its about the only way they have left to gain an income since Bernie has the rights to everything else.

 

Bernie would be happy to have races at a circuit with no spectators at all.  He doesnt get income that way.  For him, its all about TV.

 

You are right of course alfa1, but is it not indirectly giving Bernie money for if the circuit did not have punters on the gate, it would be harder to justify the fee?



#24 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 15:43

Very good post. I haven't been to an F1 race for over 15 years, as I decided I will not pay through the nose to be treated like cattle, and not getting remotely near the action. I've been to hundreds of race meetings from local hill climds to F1, CART and LeMans (NASCAR is missing on my CV though - I'd love to go to Bristol some time) and getting near the action, walk in the paddock, look at the machines up close, see the machanics work, smell the the atmosphere (Castrol R should be mandatory...) is the experience for me. Or off course driving myself in my old 911 on a track day. I've reached the advanced age where I'm getting obsessed with classic cars and classic racing thus has stronger appeal than contemporary F1. I still love F1 despite all its faults, but don't think going to a race is worth all the money and hassle - and I'd much rather go to LeMans, Indy or a NASCAR race.    

 

It must, however, be painful for Bernie to realise that even in UK, the heartland of F1, the Goodwood Revival Meeting and the Goodwood festival of Speed with an attendance limited to 150.000 are now bigger events than the F1 race.  

 

Very similar to my feelings.....I went to every British GP from 71 - 86, but always preferred Brands to Silverstone, as.I could see more of the action. At Silverstone, I was watching nearby speccies portable TV(s) then looking up as the cars went by then back to TV again. Decided not to go in 87 and haven't been back...apart from qualifying in 1999 as I'd got free tickets for that :) !!

I also liked the support races at those early GPs....touring cars, F3, historics etc. The CART race program at Brands in 2003 brought back memories of those early GPs and support races.

I still attend many historic race meetings, rallies, hillclimbs, rallycross, etc but don't bother with the modern stuff apart from DTM.....


Edited by Dick Dastardly, 28 July 2014 - 16:37.


#25 chunder27

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 16:28

Am not sure about the NASCAR pitching their sport to the family demographic.

 

I went on the nascar site earlier to see ticket prices.

 

Now I know Bristol is popular, but the cheapest ticket I could get was 95 dollars with the most expensive being over 130 dollars, I think I found general admission to Watkins Glen was about 80 dollars too.

 

That ain't family.

 

Not sure on other venues, but that is not at all cheap.

 

What is being called premier sport is now out of reach or considered non value for people with any sense.

 

But, until the people that are happy to pay it, stop, nothing will change.

 

It is them that need urging to stop, not people like promoters, tracks and Bernie. They are in business to make as much money as humanly possible for their shareholders year after year, and the only thing that will stop that is if people bite the bullet and say no.

 

And they won't, because they are too eager to go along, and that's the shame of it. It is fans that have contributed to this issue, not just tracks, owners and promoters.



#26 chipmcdonald

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 16:35

Bernie doesn't take your ticket money.

 

What everyone here has missed is that the circuit takes the ticket money.  Its about the only way they have left to gain an income since Bernie has the rights to everything else.

 

Bernie would be happy to have races at a circuit with no spectators at all.  He doesnt get income that way.  For him, its all about TV.

 

 

The venue is in hock for about $31 million before the event sells, because they have to pay a "hosting fee" to FOM. 

 

Get rid of the hosting fee, ticket prices could be a lot lower, you'd have a LOT more people going and a LOT more interest and a LOT more eyes LOOKING AT ADVERTISING.....

 

... which is where the actual money is being made. 



#27 jonpollak

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 16:36

We are The Great Unwashed

 

...always have been.

 

Jp



#28 chipmcdonald

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 16:47

For half of $31 million, you could put on a festival featuring U2, the Rolling Stones, Coldplay, Dave Matthews, Metallica and probably 10 other name acts and have money left over, have twice or more as many people show up, charge less than $100 a ticket - and still make a bigger profit and have saved $15 million.

 

It was incredibly stupid that when the race was at Indy, there was zero strategy by FOM to cooperate to enable every last seat to be filled ala the 500.  Indy is the nexus of racing in the States; the attitude should be "fill the seats whichever way possible", try to gain a foothold in popularity, and THEN ....

 

THEN, when your PRODUCT warrants increasing the price... then you increase your price.

 

Modern corporations/CEOs operate not under a philosophy of capitalism, but of "legal flim flam schemes".   "How can we maximize profit without having to do anything?". 

 

*THAT* is the reason 'Murica is failing, and the west in general: that is not capitalism, that is greed creating an end result that masquerades as "capitalism", that inevitably acts as a vampire to the system and itself.  CEOs take golden parachutes while the used up company fails.

 

In turn, while Bernie has grown the sport based on his procedures, that occurred during an expansionist popularity of F1 racing.  There is zero expansion now, it's in contraction.  CVC's CEO's are most likely "thinking", like any CEO today - "what can we do for maximum profit TODAY?". 

 

Circuit owners are paying the money out, they're taking it, ticket prices are incredibly stupid.  When F1 falters, the CEOs will bail, life will go on quite rosy for them personally while the infrastructure of F1 evaporates.  There is no reason to think F1 is special in any way, in a financial sense, than any other company that has been eviscerated internally by this "neo-capitalism". 

 

I do not see a successful future for "Formula One" as we know it under the vague corporate bureaucracy without radical changes.

 

 

/ I could be wrong, things might be just great.  In that case, move along, nothing to see here.



#29 chipmcdonald

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 16:49

We are The Great Unwashed

 

...always have been.

 

Jp

 

Rabble gotta rouse.  It's all we've got.



#30 chipmcdonald

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 16:56

 

Now I know Bristol is popular, but the cheapest ticket I could get was 95 dollars with the most expensive being over 130 dollars, I think I found general admission to Watkins Glen was about 80 dollars too.

 

That ain't family.

 

Not sure on other venues, but that is not at all cheap.

 

 

NASCAR is in for a big awakening as well, they think it's 2003 or so.  Lots of empty seats.  Expensive tickets isn't what brought them to their ultimate popular height, they're one step ahead of what I've mused about in my post above - they started jacking up ticket prices pre-2008, and are ignoring that we are living in a post-2008 economy.

 

1%'ers in action.  If you read all of the post-2008 blatherings by the NASCAR hoi polloi, you'll see that while acknowledging "this is a new economy", "it's because of the economy", they then immediately talk about "improving the fan experience"...

 

Exactly like what the 1%'ers are saying in F1 right now (a little too much late braking for that 2008 apex, but....)

 

The problem is, adding to the "fan experience" does make the ticket cost to the fan any cheaper.

 

CEO's don't think in the long view, it's about the fiscal year.  Period. 

 

 

In turn, they are frozen - nothing will be done to make the cost to the fan cheaper.  They will ride the gravy train until there is no more gravy, then hop off.



#31 D28

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 16:59

Am not sure about the NASCAR pitching their sport to the family demographic.

 

I went on the nascar site earlier to see ticket prices.

 

Now I know Bristol is popular, but the cheapest ticket I could get was 95 dollars with the most expensive being over 130 dollars, I think I found general admission to Watkins Glen was about 80 dollars too.

 

That ain't family.

 

Not sure on other venues, but that is not at all cheap.

 

 

For comparison sake Canadian GP tickets for a good, but not most expensive seat is approximately $485 Cdn, about $446 US.for a 3 day pass. But there is no RV camping anywhere near, so one must add the considerable expense of hotel rooms to the bill. And I understand Canada, with 3 levels of government support, offers one of the lower tickets in F1. A weekend In Montreal will be considerably more expensive than Loudon NH and so on.



#32 jonpollak

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:36

Rabble gotta rouse.  It's all we've got.

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As ya do..

Jp



#33 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:57

Bernie doesn't take your ticket money.

 

What everyone here has missed is that the circuit takes the ticket money.  Its about the only way they have left to gain an income since Bernie has the rights to everything else.

 

Bernie would be happy to have races at a circuit with no spectators at all.  He doesnt get income that way.  For him, its all about TV.

Bernie takes ticket money. The tickets are so expensive because Bernie fleeces all promoters whi try to get their money. There is some control on the prices anyway. No $15 tickets in F!, even if it did pull in another 50000 punters. 

And no, I refuse to go. too bloody expensive. This year I could have been in Melbourne GP week for other reasons. I did not bother.



#34 Hans V

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 11:30

With falling interest and attendance we might see F1 race promoters go bust. Ticket sales, parking and perhaps hot dogs and sodas are their sources of income, as FOM has the rights for trackside advertising, paddock club and everything else. The high ticket prices have been barely enough for most tracks to cover the huge FOM fees. If the attendance drops 20-30% many will be in serious trouble. Bernie dismisses these problems and says that they should get public help, since F1 allegedly is bringing so much business to the locals (as if F1-fans have money left to spend after forking out for F1 tickets…), but that’s not possible in most democratic countries.

 

Currently Bernie is squeezing Monza for more money and threatens to cancel the race.  If he does that and even ditch more classical venues, he will discover the meaning of backfire. Most people don’t care about F1 and abandoning the traditional fan base, especially without having new one (neither geographically nor age-wise) coming in, is a very risky strategy, even if there are dictatorships and banana-republics that will build a Tilke-drome and pay the fees for a few years. The interest, the importance, the image and the long term revenue of the sport will suffer as a consequence. I guess Bernie isn’t all that concerned with the long-term…..



#35 F1matt

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 11:48

Until Bernie leaves, dies, or is forcibly removed from the sport ( over to you German courts) nothing will ever change, the fans and the teams know it yet have no appetite to do anything about it, and when we have declining TV and track attendances and a top team with massive history like mclaren who have no title sponsor it must be a concern for the key players.


When a track like Monza is at risk of losing its race and Baku is ready to take over we are in serious trouble......

#36 Supertourer

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:04

The venue is in hock for about $31 million before the event sells, because they have to pay a "hosting fee" to FOM. 

 

Get rid of the hosting fee, ticket prices could be a lot lower, you'd have a LOT more people going and a LOT more interest and a LOT more eyes LOOKING AT ADVERTISING.....

 

... which is where the actual money is being made. 

 

Silverstone is pretty much at capacity, the environs and infrastrucure can't take anymore people, which probably means ticket prices going up as the FOM is on an escalator each year (5% I believe).

 

And FOM takes all the money from trackside advertising too....


Edited by Supertourer, 29 July 2014 - 12:05.


#37 pdac

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:41

Until Bernie leaves, dies, or is forcibly removed from the sport ( over to you German courts) nothing will ever change, the fans and the teams know it yet have no appetite to do anything about it, and when we have declining TV and track attendances and a top team with massive history like mclaren who have no title sponsor it must be a concern for the key players.


When a track like Monza is at risk of losing its race and Baku is ready to take over we are in serious trouble......

 

No, it also down to all of the tracks to tell Bernie to shove his new contract deal. If they just worked together they could force big changes in the hosting fees. Sadly Bernie knows they are all fools. He just keeps telling them if they don't pay up there are plenty of others to take their places and they pay up. It's no use one circuit calling him up on this (he will find one or two tracks as replacements). But if a significant number of them threatened to pull out en-mass, then I'm sure the fees would start to tumble (and maybe they could get some of the trackside ad money too).

 

Sometimes you can't wait for someone to die, you have to be proactive youself.



#38 chunder27

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 13:06

Staggering levels of blindness from fans at times.

 

If, as a fan, you are stupid enough to pay prices I have seen quoted:

Over 400 Canadian dollars for a 3 day Montreal ticket

200 quid+ for Silverstone

140 bucks for a Bristol NASCAR seat.

Over 100 quid to watch classic racing at Silverstone.

Lord knows how much for 3 days of MotoGP, and paying to park on a site bigger than a HEathrow parking site!  Have a word!!

 

etc etc etc

 

You only have yourself to damn well blame.

 

I knew it was too expensive 2 decades ago and have never been since.

 

So, the resolution is in your own hands.

 

Same as PPV telly, anything really, the power is in your hands

 

You can blame Bernie all you want, he is only doing what he can get away with, he couldn't give a toss about fans, they don't make him any money at tracks. He would quite happily have behind closed doors races as he could festoon the track with ads and the stands and still make millions.

 

The paying fans are what he offers the tracks for their income, while he makes forutnes from ad revenue and tv.

 

It's up to you as fans to say no, then the races won't be run and the whole thing will cycle down.  I watched an interview with Derek Warwick recently, and they have lost money every year in MotoGP and F1 for 3 years.  That cannot last.

 

I agree that people like Dorna and FOM are bleeding tracks dry, but they will ALWAYS do it while people insist on paying stupid money for entry fees.



#39 chipmcdonald

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 14:39

Silverstone is pretty much at capacity, the environs and infrastrucure can't take anymore people, which probably means ticket prices going up as the FOM is on an escalator each year (5% I believe).

 

And FOM takes all the money from trackside advertising too....

 

But that's obviously not every race.  The stands have been at less than half capacity at a lot of races this year.  And as I referenced earlier, FOM had a chance to show 'Murica by filling all of the seats at Indy (and more) - the greatest thing they could have done for increasing ad revenue and to advertise the sport itself in the States... but they didn't.



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#40 Supertourer

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 14:47

But that's obviously not every race.  The stands have been at less than half capacity at a lot of races this year.  And as I referenced earlier, FOM had a chance to show 'Murica by filling all of the seats at Indy (and more) - the greatest thing they could have done for increasing ad revenue and to advertise the sport itself in the States... but they didn't.

 

This is where the FOM business model rears it's head. BE is paid upfront by the promoters and TV companies, it makes no difference to them financially if no one turns up at the races, it's the individual race promoters problem and some are simply buying a place on the calendar and have no interest if it turns them a profit or costs them a fortune. All of this is underpinned by the 100 year rights that the FIA signed away to FOM, meaning they have no pressure to perform or incentive to reach put to fans or even sponsors. A terms of say 10 years with open tender each time keeps the rights holder sharp and actually fairly sets the price on what F1 is worth at the time.

 

Strangely the FIA does no PR or messaging on the new engine regs/tech and what they are achieving, particularly when one of the FIA Foundation's own campaigns is all about fuel efficiency....!



#41 TheNewStig

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 14:53

Is F1 unpopular?

I like F1.



#42 chipmcdonald

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 15:07

 

With falling interest and attendance we might see F1 race promoters go bust. 

 

 I speculate, as before, that once Bernie is out of the picture (for whatever reason) CVC is going to see the whole proverbial enchilada wanting to renegotiate.  "We had a contract with Bernie" is going to get thrown around at some point I bet. 

 

Without  Bernie, Formula One is an assemblage of tracks that cars race on. 

 

Somewhere, there is a person - not in CVC, maybe not "visible" in the paddock at all - who is a common liason with all of what I'm going to call the "franchise" tracks: Monaco, Monza, Spa, Silverstone, Montreal, Suzuka, Australia, Interlagos.  (Maybe Singapore is a New Franchise Classic..?)

 

This Person turns up post-Bernie representing a consortium of those tracks.   CVC can keep going racing, but not on this consortium's tracks without negotiating as a whole a much better deal.

 

CVC can take it or leave it.  Because Formula One has decided over the past years to play loose and fast with the formula itself, playing corporate games with the cars, it's no longer the cars themselves that are "exclusively" F1. The drivers come and go.

 

*The tracks and Ferrari do not*.  

 

Dietrich goes off and starts a formula with Briatore's Classic F1 Consortium, Ferrari offers to supply customer chassis and engines to get it going.  Real cars and engines, Cosworth allowed in, Dallara, whoever else. They offer tickets prices 1/2 or less than what they are now.   CVC is left with Tilkedromes and a completely devalued and empty name. 

 

Ferrari, and the franchise tracks are the only aspects of "Formula One" that have solitary identity as "F1", like it or not.  By fooling around with silly cars, pay drivers, regs that force out new teams that are willing to make bespoke cars - that is the only thing left, save McLaren possibly and Frank Williams that are similarly "F1".

 

The expense to the fan is what governs the popularity.  It's simply too expensive now, be it television or tickets, or even $55 team caps.  Those that control the franchise grand prix tracks control the future of Grand Prix Racing.  The races must flow! 

 

 

 

 

 

/ o.k., so Flavio might not look like the kwisatz haderach, some of these jokers have to be thinking about "the post-Bernie future". 



#43 chipmcdonald

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 15:25

What is this obsession with 'getting close to the fans'?

 

I have no desire to meet any drivers and they can hardly give thousands of people guided tours around the paddock. The Thursday pit lane walk is fine and I don't care if some toffs fancy paying through the nose to have their tea and not watch the race. 

 

 When they did the "fan press conference" thingy at Indy back in... 200?, there was an enormous crowd gathered and it was very easy to tell it added to the enthusiasm of everyone present. 

 

Personally, I don't care about a signature on a piece of paper, but getting to hear "famous personages you respect for various reasons" muse in front of you about whatever, is a uniquely fascinating thing.  It puts reality as seen in 2D, projected from Very Distant and Practically Ephemeral Places, into YOUR reality.   It's the essence of why one even bothers going to the race in person.  If you think that "real life impression" isn't important - look at the popularity of fan conventions for various movies, television and other sports. 

 

Thousands of people tours - maybe not *guided*, but there is no reason otherwise in reality.  Why the thursday grid walk isn't given the same priority as being able to buy a seat baffles me, in that you *can* allow thousands up close to the cars and vehicles with little to no trouble/expense at all.   That apparently it doesn't happen it's utterly amazing to me, and another example of complete 1%'er elitist ignorance or outright prejudice. 

 

 

The fact that they get so many things so absolutely wrong is somewhat telling in the same way as politics in the States works: it's not because of stupidity things happen that don't make sense, it's because people have agendas that they don't want the public at large to know.  F1 evolved into a quasi wine-and-cheese pseudo-mechanized Augusta National sort of an affair, but the reality is IT'S CAR RACING.  Greasy, dirty, loud (should be), rubber laying (oops, please don't mark up the pitlane, thanks) CAR RACING.

 

Yes, F1 is all rather nice now, isn't it?  Jeeves, would you pull my Gallardo around for me?  Yes, the gold one today, thank you....

 

IT'S NOT FRAKKING GOLF OR POLO.  Eau Rouge might be be my equivalent of Amen Corner, but IT'S CAR RACING! 

 

 

Rule #1 of F1 Club:

 

You are selling RACING CARS and hoping people notice the nice stickers on them and the drivers. 

 

Rule #2 of F1 Club:

 

(see rule #1)

 

 

 

:mad:



#44 chipmcdonald

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 15:37

Staggering levels of blindness from fans at times.

 

If, as a fan, you are stupid enough to pay prices I have seen quoted:

Over 400 Canadian dollars for a 3 day Montreal ticket

 

 

 I agree, people are only to blame for themselves if they buy the tickets.

 

I went to Montreal on General Admission, found I was literally treated as cattle, was not allowed on the Nice People's Side of the Track, and ended up "watching" the race by craning my neck around at an angle to see the hairpin literally THROUGH A TREE.

 

Unlike Indy, I was surprised to find that not only could you basically not see much there with a GA ticket, but that it was almost like they deliberately picked places and positioned barriers and banners to block what you could see.  The one GA place where you can see "something" is a limited cattle pen area, and you can only see the cars for about 3 seconds as they come out of T5. 

 

Which I was relatively happy about at qualifying, except that area was concert-packed on race day. 

 

So what I learned as a Customer of F1 was, "Montreal is not worth the ticket price".

 

Austin, due to hotel prices and the fact that it may as well be Montreal from a distance standpoint, is actually more.  My wife asked me if I wanted to go this year; all I could think of was the expense and effort it took to get to Montreal, to get a *glimpse* of the cars for a moment on each lap during the race.

 

*A sorry glimpse*.

 

Austin looks like GA isn't much better.  Maybe worse?  I don't know, it's wayyyyyyyyyy way too expense to gamble.

 

So I'm not going.

 

Which is utterly ridiculous.  They can "add value" (that should already be there...) - but even at halving the ticket prices, you're only beginning to help F1 grow it's popularity.  When fans can't actually afford to see what they are a fan of - that's not a good business plan if you want that thing to be sustaining, much less actually GROW.

 

Ahrhghhh... :evil:



#45 ray b

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 15:44

THE MONEY NEEDS TO GO TO THE PRODUCERS

 

the tracks and teams produce the show

and should get the money for that

 

burnedout and the banks should get an agents 10% fee

not the 50% they currently rake in



#46 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 15:49


Somewhere, there is a person - not in CVC, maybe not "visible" in the paddock at all - who is a common liason with all of what I'm going to call the "franchise" tracks: Monaco, Monza, Spa, Silverstone, Montreal, Suzuka, Australia, Interlagos.  (Maybe Singapore is a New Franchise Classic..?)

 

I think you'll find that Monaco doesn't actually pay anything at present. This may or may not be connected to the fact that Bernie is a Commander of the Order of St Charles.



#47 MrPodium

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 15:53

 I speculate, as before, that once Bernie is out of the picture (for whatever reason) CVC is going to see the whole proverbial enchilada wanting to renegotiate.  "We had a contract with Bernie" is going to get thrown around at some point I bet. 

 

Without  Bernie, Formula One is an assemblage of tracks that cars race on. 

 

Somewhere, there is a person - not in CVC, maybe not "visible" in the paddock at all - who is a common liason with all of what I'm going to call the "franchise" tracks: Monaco, Monza, Spa, Silverstone, Montreal, Suzuka, Australia, Interlagos.  (Maybe Singapore is a New Franchise Classic..?)

 

This Person turns up post-Bernie representing a consortium of those tracks.   CVC can keep going racing, but not on this consortium's tracks without negotiating as a whole a much better deal.

 

CVC can take it or leave it.  Because Formula One has decided over the past years to play loose and fast with the formula itself, playing corporate games with the cars, it's no longer the cars themselves that are "exclusively" F1. The drivers come and go.

 

*The tracks and Ferrari do not*.  

 

Dietrich goes off and starts a formula with Briatore's Classic F1 Consortium, Ferrari offers to supply customer chassis and engines to get it going.  Real cars and engines, Cosworth allowed in, Dallara, whoever else. They offer tickets prices 1/2 or less than what they are now.   CVC is left with Tilkedromes and a completely devalued and empty name. 

 

Ferrari, and the franchise tracks are the only aspects of "Formula One" that have solitary identity as "F1", like it or not.  By fooling around with silly cars, pay drivers, regs that force out new teams that are willing to make bespoke cars - that is the only thing left, save McLaren possibly and Frank Williams that are similarly "F1".

 

The expense to the fan is what governs the popularity.  It's simply too expensive now, be it television or tickets, or even $55 team caps.  Those that control the franchise grand prix tracks control the future of Grand Prix Racing.  The races must flow! 

 

 

 

 

 

/ o.k., so Flavio might not look like the kwisatz haderach, some of these jokers have to be thinking about "the post-Bernie future". 

 

First of all, CVC aren't going anywhere as they're in the process of leveraging $1bn of debt onto their share holding in F1, which means that their investment is providing handsome returns in order them to service the debt.

Secondly, someone can't just turn up representing the tracks, that's way too simplistic a viewpoint to take. All the tracks you have mentioned have contracts in place not with Ecclestone personally, but through various companies he is an official (and / or employee) of. Try unravelling that lot, many have tried and all have failed. If a circuit breaks contract, they suffer massive financial penalties, ask Brands Hatch. So even if Ecclestone goes, which I don't think he'll do until he's dead and buried, then there's no way past the contracts in place for the reasons I have mentioned.

 

Finally, the GPWC didn't get far. It's all been tried before. And we're still watching Bernie's show.


Edited by MrPodium, 29 July 2014 - 15:54.


#48 D28

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 15:58

 I speculate, as before, that once Bernie is out of the picture (for whatever reason) CVC is going to see the whole proverbial enchilada wanting to renegotiate.  "We had a contract with Bernie" is going to get thrown around at some point I bet. 

 

Without  Bernie, Formula One is an assemblage of tracks that cars race on. 

 

Somewhere, there is a person - not in CVC, maybe not "visible" in the paddock at all - who is a common liason with all of what I'm going to call the "franchise" tracks: Monaco, Monza, Spa, Silverstone, Montreal, Suzuka, Australia, Interlagos.  (Maybe Singapore is a New Franchise Classic..?)

 

This Person turns up post-Bernie representing a consortium of those tracks.   CVC can keep going racing, but not on this consortium's tracks without negotiating as a whole a much better deal.

 

CVC can take it or leave it.  Because Formula One has decided over the past years to play loose and fast with the formula itself, playing corporate games with the cars, it's no longer the cars themselves that are "exclusively" F1. The drivers come and go.

 

 

 

That is an interesting scenario, one that begs the question, Why haven't the classic circuits used this power already?

Or have the European tracks in the dim distant past acted in unison to bargain with the racing teams?

 

A cautionary consideration would be that any such new series would result in 2 sanctioning groups, one officially trademarked F1, both claiming to represent tier 1 open wheel world racing. The experience in N America with the drawn out CART IRL wars and also sportscar competing groups, would suggest fans interests were not well served with such a development. As a bargaining tactic it might be effective, but the threat to start a new series would have to be credible; the classic circuits would have to hang together which might be difficult.


Edited by D28, 29 July 2014 - 15:59.


#49 D28

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 16:11

 I agree, people are only to blame for themselves if they buy the tickets.

 

I went to Montreal on General Admission, found I was literally treated as cattle, was not allowed on the Nice People's Side of the Track, and ended up "watching" the race by craning my neck around at an angle to see the hairpin literally THROUGH A TREE.

 

Unlike Indy, I was surprised to find that not only could you basically not see much there with a GA ticket, but that it was almost like they deliberately picked places and positioned barriers and banners to block what you could see.  The one GA place where you can see "something" is a limited cattle pen area, and you can only see the cars for about 3 seconds as they come out of T5. 

 

 

 

You have it right, the promoters deliberately place the banners to block track view from the cheap seats (standing areas), and yes the cattle comparison is correct. All this to force people to purchase the more expensive grandstands seats.

Worse, an announcement of a 10 year contract with Bernie, backed by 3 level government expenditure stipulated updates to the paddock facilities and press rooms the "Nice People" areas, nothing for the suffering paying public.



#50 ExFlagMan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 16:14

The problem for the classic circuits is that Bernie has cleverly arranged that most circuits contracts expire at different times - hence it is less likely that they would act together in case Bernie turns one against the other.

Ever wondered why Bernie makes a contract for x  years with circuit A and then y years with circuit B.

 

The circuits get driven into the mind-set - don't make waves in case you are the one that gets thrown overboard.