73 replies to this topic

[chipmcdonald]

 If a circuit breaks contract, they suffer massive financial penalties, ask Brands Hatch. So even if Ecclestone goes, which I don't think he'll do until he's dead and buried, then there's no way past the contracts in place for the reasons I have mentioned.

 

Finally, the GPWC didn't get far. It's all been tried before. And we're still watching Bernie's show.

 

 I haven't read the contracts, but I would suggest that they're not the immutable end-all-be-all force one might think.  When the structure of one party in an agreement changes, it can have ramifications. 

 

... and as evidence of the whole fluidity of things at that level, as you point out - we're watching Bernie's show.  Bernie has been the glue of the business side of F1, which is why such a consortium could not have happened before.  And in turn, the vacuum that will be created when he's not there will alter things: it will no longer be "Bernie's show", and the label "F1" as a brand could be argued to be lessened or completely restructured as a result.

 

 

I would not be surprised at all - I expect - that many of the agreements scattered about the F1 frontier has Bernie's name and associated legal entities interwoven  in many a seemingly innocuous way.   I think people are going to be in for a fright.  Maybe not, but we'll see, right?

[chipmcdonald]

That is an interesting scenario, one that begs the question, Why haven't the classic circuits used this power already?

 

As alluded to above, "Bernie"? 

 

I think F1 will go down in history as the most elaborately tangled business web/venture of all time.  People don't realize, these situations over the past 30 years, when there has been a "problem" - and then it's been solved a few weeks later, or months - involving tracks, drivers, sponsors, whatever - even when the parties involved on both sides are not Bernie, "something" happened that made things happen. 

 

What Bernie does - things like the Gribowsky case - gets a lot of attention because it's on the scale of F1.  But most businesses/businessmen in The Real World operate like that in that quasi-shady noumenon known as "the Business World".   Whether it's the general that gets a vacation house in Florida for recommending a weapons contractor to congress, or the guy that gets a $1,000 bonus for selling that awful green car at the back of the lot, there are "incentives" happening all the time that the public not only doesn't know about , but is actually led to believe by social constructs that such things don't happen or even exist.

 

Bernie made things happen, including all of the track deals.  He made money off of them, BUT - he has a "mysterious" bargaining power that is not readily visible.  I cheekily claim that there is only one person in F1 that actually sees the whole picture as it really is, and that person has probably set booby traps everywhere possible to protect himself.  And in turn, the whole thing will be legally riddled with holes Bernie had plugged. 

 

 

/ Maybe not, but that's a lot more interesting to ponder than "CVC will take control and things will be just perfect and smooth".    

[ExFlagMan]

According to Autosport web site, 90,000 attend Silverstone over the three days of the Classic last weekend.  Wonder how many of the current seasons GP events that beats/will beat.

[Murl]

As alluded to above, "Bernie"? 

 

I think F1 will go down in history as the most elaborately tangled business web/venture of all time.  People don't realize, these situations over the past 30 years, when there has been a "problem" - and then it's been solved a few weeks later, or months - involving tracks, drivers, sponsors, whatever - even when the parties involved on both sides are not Bernie, "something" happened that made things happen. 

 

What Bernie does - things like the Gribowsky case - gets a lot of attention because it's on the scale of F1.  But most businesses/businessmen in The Real World operate like that in that quasi-shady noumenon known as "the Business World".   Whether it's the general that gets a vacation house in Florida for recommending a weapons contractor to congress, or the guy that gets a $1,000 bonus for selling that awful green car at the back of the lot, there are "incentives" happening all the time that the public not only doesn't know about , but is actually led to believe by social constructs that such things don't happen or even exist.

 

Bernie made things happen, including all of the track deals.  He made money off of them, BUT - he has a "mysterious" bargaining power that is not readily visible.  I cheekily claim that there is only one person in F1 that actually sees the whole picture as it really is, and that person has probably set booby traps everywhere possible to protect himself.  And in turn, the whole thing will be legally riddled with holes Bernie had plugged. 

 

 

/ Maybe not, but that's a lot more interesting to ponder than "CVC will take control and things will be just perfect and smooth".    

 

 

Nope.

 

Business people in the movies are as corrupt as Bernie. And they get busted. IN THE MOVIES.

 

Face it.

[Paul Prost]

Regarding F1, it will only ever change when cretinous wannabe's find something else to spend their money on. Quite why anyone would spend 200 quid to watch that tripe is beyond me. it's more expensive than a festival, most other sports tickets that aren't in posh seats.

 

But, until folk stop going they will keep doing it, wouldn't you?  I certainly would and be laughing all the way to the bank in the process while working out what I can get away with next year. As fans you only have yourself to blame.

 

remember they charged 30 quid for testing for Christ sake.

That's expensive. I take the kids to Friday afternoon practise at Albert Park. They get in free. I pay $40AUD (about 20 quid) for general admission.

[pdac]

THE MONEY NEEDS TO GO TO THE PRODUCERS

 

the tracks and teams produce the show

and should get the money for that

 

burnedout and the banks should get an agents 10% fee

not the 50% they currently rake in

 

Yes, but they cannot just sit there and mumble "we deserve the money, so please can we have some". They need to demand it themselves.

[mariner]

- The first problem with spending £27M on a facility just to keep the F1 circus in its expected isolated luxury for 5 days per year is that it, obviously, prevents Silverstone on spending £27m on better fan and track facilities. Not just better catering etc but more quality grandstands and parking. That would have increased the circuit’s revenue and better allow it to pay the huge and always escalating FOM fee. So the "Bernie building” doesn’t even help CVC because its future revenue capacity from Silverstone has been reduced. It’s a bit like CVC letting its staff spend the profits on a new staff social club instead of the shareholders benefiting.

 

 

In sports marketing there is the concept of the brand being “legitimate" and “grounded". That is why Nike pays for its soccer boots to go on star strikers feet but also why Adidas makes special wooden heeled weightlifting boots. It makes no money on them whatsoever but people see Adidas as "grounded" in real. grassroots sport which helps it sell more.

So if F1 lets itself become seen as so isolated and self indulgent whilst not even trying to help the fans it will cease to have any credibility as a brand.

You could argue that none of that matters because it’s "all about the TV rights". Well in reality there are now few serious and large sponsors left in F1. The tobacco companies were forced out. big players like Vodafone walked away. Now apart from being a private brand exercise for Red Bull few real, business case driven sponsors are left. That suggests the TV audience isn’t seen as worth paying for by global businesses.

 

 

So now the TV revenue is everything fro F1 income. To some degree. Bernie is probably right when he says there is no way of monetized new social media and the web but he should be looking VERY carefully at what has happened in Pop music. In the end it had to the move to the digital world and recorded music sales revenue has collapsed but it was not able to prevent progress nor probably can F1.

The irony is that Pop is now back to relying on, guess what, live fans in actual arenas. That’s where the money is now made. So maybe the trackside fans may yet return as the dominant economic force just as has happened in music.

That scenario is a very good reason why “Bernie buildings” are not a good idea.

Edited by mariner, 31 July 2014 - 10:00.

[chunder27]

The relationships to music I feel is only strictly valid.

 

All record companies and bands have done is move the profit margin away from their music and on to fees for festivals and live music, nothing more, and they ahve only done that becasue they had to as fans were buying one song for a quid instead of risking an ablbum for a tenner.  It is people power forcing them to move with the times.

 

In F1 people were not really paying for f1 coverage, now they pretty much have to if they want to watch live races, so you are in effect paying about 6 quid a race if you watch nothing else on SKY. I know that is a largely dumb comparison, but the jist is that PPV is oging to bring in more for Bernie than BBC ever would, coz they buy the contract adn then charge for it every month to recoup their investment.

 

In comparison with music the series is the band. They have not really changed anything, they ahve always charged the public a lot of money to be there for some reason, usually because millions are dumb ebough to pay it. But now instead of allowing people to watch rcaes when they want, they have in the UK at least reduced the portal of free viewing and made real fans pay more for each song.

 

So it is music industry reversed, gig tickets are just as expensive with a perhaps smaller increase yer on year and each song is also more expensive!

 

Genius, or dumbness more like.

 

but as I continue to say, while there are people prepared to pay they will continue.  It was people ripping off singles and albums online that made the music industry with booze and mobile companies heavily invovled, move into gigs and festivals.  they are all in it together for the youth of today market, When was the last time you saw older people featuring in a mobile commercial, it is all about you being in control, the illusion of control!  Hilarious

[ExFlagMan]

Not sure how you get to £6 a race for Sky - unless you can negotiate a deal it is nearer to £30, and that's only if you spread it over the whole 19 race season.

[Rakaman]

Yesterday I went to the Silverstone classic, over 400 photos attest to the quality and size of the grids and I finally got to see group C cars run at dusk, exhausts flashing and brake discs glowing but that’s for the Nostalgia forum, my point here is different.

 

The Classic uses the older national paddock for the morning races and the new international "Bernie wing building” paddock for the afternoon races.

 

The national paddock is nowadays pretty user friendly - permanent cafe, bar, plenty of toilets and even showers. It’s a short walk through the Copse tunnel to the outside grandstands for race viewing.

 

In contrast the international paddock has no access to permanent toilets, no drinking water, and no proper cafe. For all afternoon in 30 degree C weather your only food and drink were four mobile burger and coffee bars, and only portable toilets to use. To get to the grandstands opposite is a nearly one mile walk back through the main circuit entrance.

 

My first instinct was to moan at Silverstone for such a shortage of facilities at the "Bernie" paddock versus the old, national one. Then it dawned on me - the whole Bernie paddock complex built at huge cost to Silverstone is simply not ever intended for public access. The only people who will ever use it are the F1 circus. They can get access to the F1 Paddock club for food and drink. All the teams and corporate guests will use the team’s massive mobile hospitality rigs to eat drink etc.

 

Suddenly I realised that the whole F1 world is now so isolated from the public that they arrive at a circuit and live in a complete bubble world devoid of any contact with the public who pay them. What is more they see it as their absolute right to have £27M spent on facility which only they will ever have access to.

 

Sorry for a rant but it is now so obvious to me why F1 cannot fix its popularity problems - they have become so isolated and pampered as individuals they never even see any race fans. Marie Antionette and eating cake come to mind as the most probably recommendation of the new popularity working group.

 

Like they care who is actually at the track. What they are worried about is the decline in viewing figures. 

 

I just don't know if the people who run F1 are just dumb or have the head so far up their bums they can't see reality. 

 

Lets see. F1 drop in popularity. I wonder why. We only have: 

-piddly V6s

-cars sound like lawnmowers

-cars look like some someone attached a sex toy to a hoover. 

-70% of the race is tire management. 

-when actual racing does break out someone is penalized by the stewards. 

-half the time the TV director doesn't seem to know what he's doing. 

-still can't overtake despite the introduction of the blue turtle shell. 

[chipmcdonald]

Like they care who is actually at the track. What they are worried about is the decline in viewing figures. 

 

I just don't know if the people who run F1 are just dumb or have the head so far up their bums they can't see reality. 

 

Lets see. F1 drop in popularity. I wonder why. We only have: 

-piddly V6s

-cars sound like lawnmowers

-cars look like some someone attached a sex toy to a hoover. 

-70% of the race is tire management. 

-when actual racing does break out someone is penalized by the stewards. 

-half the time the TV director doesn't seem to know what he's doing. 

-still can't overtake despite the introduction of the blue turtle shell. 

 

 

... outside of leaving out "Invisible Fuel Status" you are the winner.

[Lotus53B]

What is this obsession with 'getting close to the fans'?

 

I have no desire to meet any drivers and they can hardly give thousands of people guided tours around the paddock. The Thursday pit lane walk is fine and I don't care if some toffs fancy paying through the nose to have their tea and not watch the race. 

 

As long as I don't have to witness any interviews with airhead women who have got onto the grid, I'm not fussed.

 

I went to the British GP for the second time in 1973, and my Dad got paddock tickets for us - we could wander around the paddock and pits before, during and after the race.  Yes, this was F1 in the early 70s, when a family of five, not particularly well off, could afford, and easily get, tickets to wander round the pits. 

 

At the time I was a cute wee 8 year old (time has not been kind), and after the race, the drivers were wandering round, and more than happy to sit on a car with this wee starstruck 8 year old and have photos taken.  They all - including such folk as Jackie Stewart - took the time to connect.

Memories like that are why I'm still a totally addicted fan more than 40 years later, and why I think F1 - and a lot of other sports - have to connect with their fans more.

Images on a screen are commonplace, trivial, and ephemeral.

 

Feeling part of it, connecting with it and having those sorts of memories are permanent and irreplaceable.

Edited by Lotus53B, 01 August 2014 - 19:20.

[jesee]

I fully support the theme of this topic. However, we must remember that most race hosts don't make much of a profit. Much of the money coming into f1 is from broadcasting rights and from new venues bidding to host and paying crazy money, not from f1 attendance fees. There is too much of a squeeze on hosts by Bernie and co. that classic circuits struggle to provide good facilities. As long as TV is generating good money and places like Azerbaijan want to pay through the roof to host, Bernie doesn't give a damn about the traditional F1 fan. That is why they are worried that TV audiences are down in some countries. There is too much short sightedness on the powers that be. If you kill off the traditional viewer you kill of young viewer who probably get interested because dad is into racing. But they don't give a damn. It is strange that even classical races cannot be watched freely on new media. Maybe they will try to listen this time, but i don't hold my breath.

[FastnLoud]

The older Bernie gets the more idiotic and stupid he becomes in terms of what is needed for the sport, forget his money making mind - he aint got a clue what the fans what or what the sport needs, he has been involved in court cases recently regarding bribery and then he wants to bring back one of the biggest cheats in the sport in Flavio - the bloke has no morals and everything is about money to him, the sooner he is gone the better

Edited by FastnLoud, 01 August 2014 - 21:10.

[ExFlagMan]

But there again - do the fans know what they want? Another thread on here has a poll with two conflicting 'wants' regarding tyres - more durable vs more-degradable - last time I looked there wasn't a great deal of difference in the votes for either.

 

For every suggestion someone comes up with there is an outpouring of derision from others.

 

Go figure!

[blub]

I never thought I would say this but the big problem with F1 is one of its core values, advanced technology. I’m not that into the drivers I much prefer to see how the teams are working and how the different managers do their thing. MB is transcendent with the new technology, but they simply don’t know what they are doing on the management side, which is its own kind of fun, I will admit.

At this point F1 is now slicing such fine degrees of performance advantage the teams have become technology enterprises. There is much to like about that but the end result is a lesser racing series. They have lost the point of it all, the audience and a competitive race. Now, with F1 playing this political game of carbon relevance, with the fuel saving engine, F1 has transitioned into a social conscience racing series and away from a racing racing series. I want my entertainments to be separate from the rest of the world, I want them purely about entertainment on the same terms that have worked for 100 years. We have had great racing this year but but people, for better or worse, look to the leader of a race and want to see the race there, for the most part it has not been there for years, Ferrari early 2000’s Red Bull in the last four years and now MB. There are some great races within a race, but it is important for that ultimate race, the race for the win, to have a greater competition.

Cut the technology development across the board and lets see what happens. Another suggestion might be to not pay any teams from the money FOM gets, the only source of money (fuel for technology development) would come from team sponsorship or investment. Then FOM could offer shares to the public and all that money would be like a massive dividend (taxed lower) paid each year. Smart teams would just buy as much FOM stock as they could and get their money that way, putting the profits in their pockets with no incentives to spend it on the team. The second thing I would do is pass a regulation which mandated that each team submit all their technological developments to a public forum on the FIA web site every six months. There would be much less incentive to spend crazy money on technology just to go one tenth faster if your competitors could use both their developments AND every other teams developments for free, twice a year.

I love the whole technology side of F1 and Sailing, but it has gone too far on several fronts and they seem so deep in they cant see that its taking away from the broader competition side of the total series.

[V8 Fireworks]

What is this obsession with 'getting close to the fans'?

 

I have no desire to meet any drivers and they can hardly give thousands of people guided tours around the paddock. The Thursday pit lane walk is fine and I don't care if some toffs fancy paying through the nose to have their tea and not watch the race. 

 

As long as I don't have to witness any interviews with airhead women who have got onto the grid, I'm not fussed.

 

 

Fans and entrants mingling is the basic premise of ANY racing paddock 

 

http://www.carpages....07/IMG_0259.jpg

 

http://s2.postimg.or...ractice_001.jpg

 

         

[Kraken]

 

Fans and entrants mingling is the basic premise of ANY racing paddock 

 

http://www.carpages....07/IMG_0259.jpg

 

http://s2.postimg.or...ractice_001.jpg

 

         

Always drives me nuts with people walking around the paddock asking idiotic questions when I'm trying to prep the car for the race or get myself ready. If people want to look at cars up close or talk to people about them they should go to a car show not a race.

[hittheapex]

Always drives me nuts with people walking around the paddock asking idiotic questions when I'm trying to prep the car for the race or get myself ready. If people want to look at cars up close or talk to people about them they should go to a car show not a race.

What kind of idiotic questions do you receive?

[uffen]

Always drives me nuts with people walking around the paddock asking idiotic questions when I'm trying to prep the car for the race or get myself ready. If people want to look at cars up close or talk to people about them they should go to a car show not a race.

It's a shame the paying public, the fans who support what you do, are such a disappointment to you. You should study the approach of guys like Richard Petty to learn how to handle it.

[Jager]

Reading through this thread, I see lots of comments about insane prices and questioning the sanity of people who buy tickets at these prices.

 

At the risk of stating the obvious, it all comes down to disposable income. The average salary in the UK is now £26,500, which means that a £200 Silverstone ticket is equivalent to 2 days salary (or 1 days income for a working couple). That doesn't seem unreasonable to me and I doubt the ratio of ticket prices to salary in the 60's, 70's or 80's was much different. The question is whether it represents good value today as a general admission ticket doesn't offer the same accessibility that it used to.

 

I don't have an issue with the ticket prices, but if they want to keep charging these prices they have to give something more back to the fans.

[Fastcake]

 

Fans and entrants mingling is the basic premise of ANY racing paddock 

 

http://www.carpages....07/IMG_0259.jpg

 

http://s2.postimg.or...ractice_001.jpg

 

         

 

You can find dozens of photos like that from the old days, but what top sports allow that level of access now? It's not like you can have a quick wander into the dressing room at the World Cup, or have a chat with Roger Federer in the player's restaurant. Sporting events seem set nowadays to keep the likes of us as far away from "them" as possible.

[Clatter]

You are right of course alfa1, but is it not indirectly giving Bernie money for if the circuit did not have punters on the gate, it would be harder to justify the fee?

Nope, the fee would remain the same, but the circuit might not be able to pay it.

[mariner]

I have always loved the new technolgy, monocoques, wings, ground effects. turbos etc and the CanAm series remains my dream formula - basicaly no rules except safety.

 

BUT I also love US sprint car racng for pure racing excitement even if the technology is pretty old.

 

As for drag racing you can keep a lot of it ( brackets etc.) but Top Fuel is just awesome to experience live.

 

I woudn't pay premium TV money to see Sprint cars on LCD screen nor would I do that for Top Fuel drag racing but I would, and have, paid a lot to see it live.

 

So I think there is  very important role for track side fans and the experince will make  long term race fan of you IF it is good and the facilities are decent.

 

I think the point that puzzles me is why sprint car racing with 600kg versus 800 bhp and a 2 page rule book can provide so much trackside excitement but F1 with 650kg vs 850 bhp simply doesn't - at least to my eyes.

 

The relevance to this thread is " put on show and they will come in person" - that lesson sems to be utterly ignored by whole F1 industry.

Edited by mariner, 02 August 2014 - 20:27.