THE BRAVE NEW ERA OF STEWARDING....LET THEM RACE!
#1
Posted 27 July 2014 - 22:28
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#2
Posted 27 July 2014 - 22:33
This was long overdue and I am glad they got this one right.
#3
Posted 27 July 2014 - 22:35
honestly i think hamilton should have got a penalty for forcing rosberg off the track on the last lap in t2/3. racing is racing but that was pretty dirty driving by hamilton , same as bahrain ham thinks he can just force people out wide and get away with it. ham also squeezed vettel out today aswell at the same corner. rosberg could have spun into the wall
#4
Posted 27 July 2014 - 22:36
I don't see how anything is noticeably different. Drivers have always gone for an overtake if they see an opportunity, the stewards will issue a penalty if they think someone broke the rules.
The overwhelming majority of "Car no x is under investigation" messages were followed by a "No further action", and had no bearing on the quality of the racing.
Edited by Fastcake, 27 July 2014 - 22:42.
#5
Posted 27 July 2014 - 22:40
10/10 today.
As a JB fan I am pleased he got off free with that release, but, I wouldn't have been surprised or angry with the stewards should one have been issued.
Hamilton didnt do anything wrong with Rosberg at the end today. We see that all the time.
#6
Posted 27 July 2014 - 23:40
Hamilton didnt do anything wrong with Rosberg at the end today. We see that all the time.
That doesn't make it right according to the rules, there is no doubt at all that this is the second time this year where Rosberg have been on the outside of Hamilton, and ended up off the track due to Hamilton forcing the issue, in Bahrain one used the "racing line" argument, that doesn't work here.
#7
Posted 27 July 2014 - 23:57
Bahrein 2012. Rosberg, Hamilton. No penalty for Rosberg...That doesn't make it right according to the rules, there is no doubt at all that this is the second time this year where Rosberg have been on the outside of Hamilton, and ended up off the track due to Hamilton forcing the issue, in Bahrain one used the "racing line" argument, that doesn't work here.
Back on topic, I am really happy they let racing incidents be just racing incidents! I wonder why people waited for so long before realizing it had gone too far... The 2008-2012 era was ridiculous.
Edited by hollowstar, 28 July 2014 - 00:00.
#8
Posted 28 July 2014 - 01:11
When you've called every race poorly for 7 years, calling it correctly all of a sudden is far more offensive than remembering you're supposed to be biased, moronic zebras punching buttons in a bubble.
Call it well or call it poorly, I don't care. Just call it the same every time.
#9
Posted 28 July 2014 - 01:55
honestly i think hamilton should have got a penalty for forcing rosberg off the track on the last lap in t2/3. racing is racing but that was pretty dirty driving by hamilton , same as bahrain ham thinks he can just force people out wide and get away with it. ham also squeezed vettel out today aswell at the same corner. rosberg could have spun into the wall
You obviously have never actually raced before. If you go out around the outside, you can't expect the other guy to back off. Lewis obviously left Nico enough room, as Nico didn't have to put 4 wheels off the track to continue. He got the amount of room he was entitled to-Enough to finish behind HAM. How some people call themselves "race fans" with the expectations they have is beyond me. Maybe Lewis should've just opened the door, rolled out the carpet then said "after you mate, and would you like me to polish the Wdc trophy for you after the race?" Let's not forget, Nico did the exact same thing (actually a bit worse, but not the end of the world) at the start of the Canada gp. Ran Lewis right off when he got a much better start and had his nose in front, but was on the OUTSIDE of Nico going into turn 1. I didnt hear Lewis, or anyone I can recall, complaining about that move. Nico cost lewis a position to Vettel with that move also, but, I'm hoping for consistencies' sake, maybe YOU were the lone voice calling for Nico to be penalized then? Or are you just biased if its Lewis doing it?
Edited by TurboF1, 28 July 2014 - 02:48.
#10
Posted 28 July 2014 - 02:36
#11
Posted 28 July 2014 - 02:44
TurboF1. That's all great heartfelt stuff but there is actually a rule against closing the door which was introduced largely due to Hamilton driving people off. It seems it fell to the wayside with the whole let them race vibe which is fair enough.
Ok, so then where were the calls for Nico to be penalized for HIS "dirty driving" at t1 in Montreal? Nico " broke the rule" then, according to you. How come no one even brought it up? Where's the consistency then? That's right, there isnt any. The hypocrisy (not from you, but in general) is what really grates me.
#12
Posted 28 July 2014 - 05:07
Ok, so then where were the calls for Nico to be penalized for HIS "dirty driving" at t1 in Montreal? Nico " broke the rule" then, according to you. How come no one even brought it up? Where's the consistency then? That's right, there isnt any. The hypocrisy (not from you, but in general) is what really grates me.
No one bought it up because that was about two months ago and this happened this weekend. The forcing cars off track rule was policed very poorly this weekend in GP2 and in F1. Hamilton is a serial offender at this, not helped but an English press that lauds everything he does as the greatest thing since sliced bread. What made Schumacher 'ruthless' and 'taking the mickey' when he did it is only Hamilton showing his 'Bulldog spirit' according to the BBC.
You won't get side to side racing battles if it's OK to drive a car next to you off the road. I'm not sure what people who think this weekend was some sort of revelation are actually wanting to see in a race these days.
#13
Posted 28 July 2014 - 05:12
What made Schumacher 'ruthless' and 'taking the mickey' when he did it is only Hamilton showing his 'Bulldog spirit' according to the BBC.
Ruthless: ramming opposition, deliberately blocking the track, etc
Bulldog spirit: racing
#14
Posted 28 July 2014 - 05:28
Ruthless: ramming opposition, deliberately blocking the track, etc
Bulldog spirit: racing
So...what Hamilton has been doing for the better part of his career then? He's recognised as a master of getting alongside someone and then just running them off the edge of the circuit.
Edging people off the track is not racing, unless you're Hamilton.
#15
Posted 28 July 2014 - 06:07
#16
Posted 28 July 2014 - 06:09
I hope this thread does not degenerate into my driver against your driver. I think probably racing had become too sterile and probably for some fans....no offence intended...had become the norm. There were no personalities, no taking risks and if you do, the meted punishments so severe that you wouldn't dare again. Everything too artificial. Driving to delta, push to pass no controversy.....just obey obey obey! Also stewarding so inconsistent and sometimes bizarre. I do hope that the laxity given to drivers will continue. I don't want to watch and listen to robots...automatons racing to delta... I want wheels banging, risky moves, dives, racers taking no baggage. May this continue!
I'd rather see wheel-to-wheel racing that goes on for more than one corner, but each to their own.
#17
Posted 28 July 2014 - 06:15
#18
Posted 28 July 2014 - 06:15
#19
Posted 28 July 2014 - 06:53
Haven't noticed any comments from all those who where adamant that it should all be 'about marshal safety' last weekend.
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#20
Posted 28 July 2014 - 07:51
So, are people going to ask for penalties for Nico, he pushed Bottas off at turn 1 yesterday too. Bottas had to take to the run-off. Where are all the complaints??????
Edited by River, 28 July 2014 - 07:52.
#21
Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:17
Can't believe the crying in this thread. He left Rosberg enough room to continue but not enough room to overtake, and that's the defender's job.
Continuing on the grass doesn't count. I can't believe some people seriously equate 'not running someone off the road' with 'not being allowed to defend'.
#22
Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:18
So, are people going to ask for penalties for Nico, he pushed Bottas off at turn 1 yesterday too. Bottas had to take to the run-off. Where are all the complaints??????
He also did a stupid dive inside of Kimi (lap 60) that would've ended in a crash unless Kimi was so fast to avoid a crash. Both Lewis and Nico have a habit of braking too late forcing the defending driver either off the circuit or taking actions to avoid a crash. That's not good racing, that's counting on the other driver to make sure contact is avoided.
They should both have a look at Alonso, Kimi, Button and Ricciardo on how to race wheel to wheel.
#23
Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:21
honestly i think hamilton should have got a penalty for forcing rosberg off the track on the last lap in t2/3. racing is racing but that was pretty dirty driving by hamilton , same as bahrain ham thinks he can just force people out wide and get away with it. ham also squeezed vettel out today aswell at the same corner. rosberg could have spun into the wall
Even Rosberg said that defence was fine
#24
Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:45
Even Rosberg said that defence was fine
Yeah, but what does Britney know? He's just a racing driver leading the WDC, not a real expert like people on an internet forum.
Edited by BRG, 28 July 2014 - 09:45.
#25
Posted 28 July 2014 - 11:04
Ok, so then where were the calls for Nico to be penalized for HIS "dirty driving" at t1 in Montreal? Nico " broke the rule" then, according to you. How come no one even brought it up? Where's the consistency then? That's right, there isnt any. The hypocrisy (not from you, but in general) is what really grates me.
i had forgot about canda t1. at the time yes i thought rosberg should have got a penalty same with lewis in bahrain(his chop). rosberg on bottas yesterday should have got a penalty. its funny though i dont rember alonso last week forcing ricciardo off or vettel forcing alonso off at silverstone if they can race fairly then why cant lewis and nico. i though the rules about leaving space were crystal clear. its not a fair fight if the driver infront just forces another driver off track
#26
Posted 28 July 2014 - 11:16
It should always be a case of don't punish honest errors, but punish dirty/reckless driving
#27
Posted 28 July 2014 - 11:34
honestly i think hamilton should have got a penalty for forcing rosberg off the track on the last lap in t2/3. racing is racing but that was pretty dirty driving by hamilton , same as bahrain ham thinks he can just force people out wide and get away with it. ham also squeezed vettel out today aswell at the same corner. rosberg could have spun into the wall
Despite the fact that Hamilton was within his rights to push Rosberg off the track. If you look closely, he didn't actually force him off the track!
#28
Posted 28 July 2014 - 11:35
The racing on the track was generally fine, and I tend to prefer the stewards keeping themselves out of racing incidents, but there were some dodgy shenanigans in the pitlane during the first safety car phase that I thought did warrant closer scrutiny.
#29
Posted 28 July 2014 - 11:50
Not to mention the actions of certain drivers on track whilst under SC conditions.The racing on the track was generally fine, and I tend to prefer the stewards keeping themselves out of racing incidents, but there were some dodgy shenanigans in the pitlane during the first safety car phase that I thought did warrant closer scrutiny.
#30
Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:11
#31
Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:16
honestly i think hamilton should have got a penalty for forcing rosberg off the track on the last lap in t2/3. racing is racing but that was pretty dirty driving by hamilton , same as bahrain ham thinks he can just force people out wide and get away with it. ham also squeezed vettel out today aswell at the same corner. rosberg could have spun into the wall
I can only imagine how the forums would have melted down if that was Schumi shoving someone off the track, but its fine for Lewis ;)
#32
Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:17
I don't see how anything is noticeably different. Drivers have always gone for an overtake if they see an opportunity, the stewards will issue a penalty if they think someone broke the rules.
The overwhelming majority of "Car no x is under investigation" messages were followed by a "No further action", and had no bearing on the quality of the racing.
It's true that there wasn't that much effect on the quality of the racing, but having the inevitable message of the investigation, and wondering if one driver would get a penalty, did spoil the enjoyment of the race, not to mention put a shadow over the teams in question at the time.
#33
Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:47
I was surprised at the lack of unsafe release investigations - if the stewards are going to be authoritarian there is no better place to do it than the pit lane, where the rules are solely for the safety of the team and track personnel. I don't think close releases and side-by-side exits are acceptable and the stewards need to continue punishing drivers/teams in order to deter future mishaps.
#34
Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:51
honestly i think hamilton should have got a penalty for forcing rosberg off the track on the last lap in t2/3.
It was obvious when Sky showed the onboard footage that Lewis didn't force Nico off the track.
Edited by karlth, 28 July 2014 - 12:51.
#35
Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:18
I guess just like the marshals working in the accident zone that he was speeding past!The best thing which could have happened to racing for the last few grandprixes is less stewarding. The headmasters were too strict...it was funny yesterday with Nico reporting Vergne for 'Speeding!' I burst out laughing. Let these guys race....that is what they have spent all their lives doing.
#36
Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:27
No one bought it up because that was about two months ago and this happened this weekend. The forcing cars off track rule was policed very poorly this weekend in GP2 and in F1. Hamilton is a serial offender at this, not helped but an English press that lauds everything he does as the greatest thing since sliced bread. What made Schumacher 'ruthless' and 'taking the mickey' when he did it is only Hamilton showing his 'Bulldog spirit' according to the BBC.
You won't get side to side racing battles if it's OK to drive a car next to you off the road. I'm not sure what people who think this weekend was some sort of revelation are actually wanting to see in a race these days.
You may have a comprehension problem if you think I was questioning why no one brought up what happened in Canada- as a talking point for this weekend. I'll clarify. During the Canadian weekend, when Nico ran Lewis clean off the road at turn 1 when Lewis attempted an overtake around the outside. Lewis subsequently lost a position to Vettel due to his own teammate shoving him off. Lewis didn't complain, because it's a FAIR part of racing. You try to go around any decent racer around the outside, don't be surprised to find yourself out of room. I was saying, that same weekend, AlexanderF1 (or anyone else that I can recall) was NOT calling for Nico to be penalized for a slightly more extreme version of what Lewis did to Nico in Hungary. If you cannot see the hypocrisy, then you may consider the possibility that you may be a bit... "biased" when it comes to LH. If you look at both scenarios dispassionately, you'd realize that Lewis did the same thing Nico did to him. When Nico does it, it's all good, but heaven forbid Lewis does the same thing, and there are people demanding his head on a stick. Don't tell me you don't see the double standards at play. That's my issue more than anything.
Edited by TurboF1, 28 July 2014 - 13:28.
#37
Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:31
I can only imagine how the forums would have melted down if that was Schumi shoving someone off the track, but its fine for Lewis ;)
See posts #9 and #38
#38
Posted 28 July 2014 - 17:50
i had forgot about canda t1. at the time yes i thought rosberg should have got a penalty same with lewis in bahrain(his chop). rosberg on bottas yesterday should have got a penalty. its funny though i dont rember alonso last week forcing ricciardo off or vettel forcing alonso off at silverstone if they can race fairly then why cant lewis and nico. i though the rules about leaving space were crystal clear. its not a fair fight if the driver infront just forces another driver off track
I mean this honestly, with no sarcasm or malice intended. Go spend some time racing karts, it'll give you a world of perspective you don't appear to have at the moment.
#39
Posted 28 July 2014 - 17:54
I can only imagine how the forums would have melted down if that was Schumi shoving someone off the track, but its fine for Lewis ;)
Yeah. The forum absolutely melted down when Rosberg did it to Bottas. Oh, wait ...
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#40
Posted 28 July 2014 - 18:11
I was surprised at the lack of unsafe release investigations - if the stewards are going to be authoritarian there is no better place to do it than the pit lane, where the rules are solely for the safety of the team and track personnel. I don't think close releases and side-by-side exits are acceptable and the stewards need to continue punishing drivers/teams in order to deter future mishaps.
Sorry to have to predict it, but I think its likely that before long there is going to be a tragedy in the pitlane. Obviously the H&S warriors will emerge AFTER this happens to tell us all how dangerous it is...
It is incredible what goes on.
Sooner or later a car is going to be released into another and its all going to kick off. 80kph is pretty high speed for 2 tangled race cars to missile towards a bunch of kneeling mechanics.
Its the second most "intentionally dangerous" thing in F1 that I can see, after crowding/moving under braking that still seems to be fairly prolific. The bit I don't understand about this tactic is that whenever 2 cars come into contact in this situation, they are invariably BOTH involved in the ensuing shunt.
But I'm fine with the barging, squeezing and blocking in fights for corner line and exit. That's racing.
#41
Posted 29 July 2014 - 22:05
Bahrein 2012. Rosberg, Hamilton. No penalty for Rosberg...
Back on topic, I am really happy they let racing incidents be just racing incidents! I wonder why people waited for so long before realizing it had gone too far... The 2008-2012 era was ridiculous.
Did I say that was right? Even though I've stopped comparing from year to year as it seems like FIA is changing how the view the rules every new year's eve.
I'm also happy that they do that, but, race incident, pushing wide... not the same.
You obviously have never actually raced before. If you go out around the outside, you can't expect the other guy to back off. Lewis obviously left Nico enough room, as Nico didn't have to put 4 wheels off the track to continue. He got the amount of room he was entitled to-Enough to finish behind HAM. How some people call themselves "race fans" with the expectations they have is beyond me. Maybe Lewis should've just opened the door, rolled out the carpet then said "after you mate, and would you like me to polish the Wdc trophy for you after the race?" Let's not forget, Nico did the exact same thing (actually a bit worse, but not the end of the world) at the start of the Canada gp. Ran Lewis right off when he got a much better start and had his nose in front, but was on the OUTSIDE of Nico going into turn 1. I didnt hear Lewis, or anyone I can recall, complaining about that move. Nico cost lewis a position to Vettel with that move also, but, I'm hoping for consistencies' sake, maybe YOU were the lone voice calling for Nico to be penalized then? Or are you just biased if its Lewis doing it?
Or is it the fact that the starts are more "free-for-all"? With all the line-switching, pushing and shoving in the starts, it seems like everything goes as long as you don't take a WDC contender out of the race. Is it still right to force someone off the track? No, not at all.
In Hungary, the "racing line" as people reefer to, doesn't go all the way out where Hamilton drove, the way he turned right in the middle of the corner, was blatant, and Rosberg was on the grass - he had to put his inner wheels off the track. And by the rules - and Charlie Whiting on Sky pre-race, the white lines are the track limits. Not the kerbs. Rosberg had better grip, which made it possible to go on the outside, a driver should never just let someone pass, but a driver should also strive to race fair, and keep inside the rules.
And yes, before you ask me... uhm, states that I've never raced in my life either. I raced for 8 years until a major accident left me with brain bleeding.
I'm all for though racing, I want a tiny bit more "dangerous" tracks (more grass and gravel) - and I want the stewards to penalize moving under breaking, more than one defensive move, crowding into, during or out of a corner, and other things that might, can, and one time will lead to a serious incident and injury, if not worse. Racing is, have always been, will always be, and should be dangerous - but it should not be lenient stewarding and the drivers that force this danger upon eachother.
And yes, I do know that T2 in Hungary, into T2 in Canada, and out of the T3/4 (depending on what map you are looking at) in Bahrain, is very unlikely to be dangerous. A rule is a rule, no matter how fast or slow the corner is, and no matter if it is 1 meter or 20 to a wall. If it is allowed in one corner, it is allowed in all corners.
#42
Posted 29 July 2014 - 22:56
Let them race! It was refreshing to see tough and hard but fair racing occur with any interference by the stewards. We also got to see the novelty of a standing start in wet conditions as well! How rare is that! (I was really worried that before the race, race control would decree it too dangerous and force us to endure a safety car start.)
Full marks to the stewards all weekend, long may it continue.
#43
Posted 29 July 2014 - 23:03
No one bought it up because that was about two months ago and this happened this weekend. The forcing cars off track rule was policed very poorly this weekend in GP2 and in F1. Hamilton is a serial offender at this, not helped but an English press that lauds everything he does as the greatest thing since sliced bread. What made Schumacher 'ruthless' and 'taking the mickey' when he did it is only Hamilton showing his 'Bulldog spirit' according to the BBC.
You won't get side to side racing battles if it's OK to drive a car next to you off the road. I'm not sure what people who think this weekend was some sort of revelation are actually wanting to see in a race these days.
Slightly off topic, but do you have a single good thing to say about the British, a British driver or the British press?
The new relaxed attitude was most likely ushered in as way too many drivers were becoming risk averse, their teams telling them to hang back just in case of some penalty meted out in the heat of battling over a metre of tarmac travelling at close to 200mph. Probably something Jue Public didn't understand or appreciate either. And most certainly nothing to do with the British press, which I suspect you don't even read, as if you did, you would know that your argument was fundamentally flawed. Again.
Edited by MrPodium, 29 July 2014 - 23:05.
#44
Posted 29 July 2014 - 23:45
TurboF1. That's all great heartfelt stuff but there is actually a rule against closing the door which was introduced largely due to Hamilton driving people off. It seems it fell to the wayside with the whole let them race vibe which is fair enough.
Can you show me which rule, please?
#45
Posted 30 July 2014 - 00:13
there is a rule about crowding others off track, but its hardly ever inforced.
but didnt lewis get a penalty for it in japan? when it was heiki that actually hit kimi
#46
Posted 30 July 2014 - 01:06
Michael Schumacher almost killed Rubins when his gave him only inches at the last second to avoid a concrete wall they were racing towards on a front straight. Then, Nico R forced both Shoemacher and Hamilton off the track completely, at I think Bahrain. After all that, in the new year the FIA passed a law saying that drivers must give other drivers at least the width of a car between the edge of the track, when a substantial part of the outside car is overlapped. The teams shot back, what does a substantial part of the car mean, the FIA said, ANY PART OF THE FRONT WING OVERLAPPING ANY PART OF THE FOWARD CAR. It was unequivocal, a cars width must be offered to a car that is overlapped with you.
So we have all watched and not seen a single moment where the FIA has found fault with any driver giving less then a width. When Alonso did his thing against Vettel at Monza, nothing, the next year Vettle giving it to Alonso, nothing.
Everyone wake up, the FIA race stewards are ignoring a rule the FIA passed and is on the books, call it what you will, stop waiting for the FIA stewards to come down on someone who brakes that rule, it is not going to happen, its better racing for it. When LH overtook Vergne, after Rosberg could not do so for 15 laps he did so on the outside and running over the curbs, didn’t look like enough room to me, but no harm no foul. Hamilton gets it, its racing and its risky and he is all in with that game.
Stop waiting for the FIA to do their jobs. Always remember Spa 2008, Hamilton won and the FIA took the win away from him, they made up a new rule at the event in order to do so. It was worse in 2008 under Max M, we should be thankful.
#47
Posted 30 July 2014 - 01:53
Michael Schumacher almost killed Rubins when his gave him only inches at the last second to avoid a concrete wall they were racing towards on a front straight. Then, Nico R forced both Shoemacher and Hamilton off the track completely, at I think Bahrain. After all that, in the new year the FIA passed a law saying that drivers must give other drivers at least the width of a car between the edge of the track, when a substantial part of the outside car is overlapped. The teams shot back, what does a substantial part of the car mean, the FIA said, ANY PART OF THE FRONT WING OVERLAPPING ANY PART OF THE FOWARD CAR. It was unequivocal, a cars width must be offered to a car that is overlapped with you.
So we have all watched and not seen a single moment where the FIA has found fault with any driver giving less then a width. When Alonso did his thing against Vettel at Monza, nothing, the next year Vettle giving it to Alonso, nothing.
Everyone wake up, the FIA race stewards are ignoring a rule the FIA passed and is on the books, call it what you will, stop waiting for the FIA stewards to come down on someone who brakes that rule, it is not going to happen, its better racing for it. When LH overtook Vergne, after Rosberg could not do so for 15 laps he did so on the outside and running over the curbs, didn’t look like enough room to me, but no harm no foul. Hamilton gets it, its racing and its risky and he is all in with that game.
Stop waiting for the FIA to do their jobs. Always remember Spa 2008, Hamilton won and the FIA took the win away from him, they made up a new rule at the event in order to do so. It was worse in 2008 under Max M, we should be thankful.
there is a rule about crowding others off track, but its hardly ever inforced.
but didnt lewis get a penalty for it in japan? when it was heiki that actually hit kimi
Can anyone show me the exact rules, please?
#48
Posted 30 July 2014 - 02:13
So...what Hamilton has been doing for the better part of his career then? He's recognised as a master of getting alongside someone and then just running them off the edge of the circuit.
Edging people off the track is not racing, unless you're Hamilton.
Just look for the owner of your helmet,please.
Edited by Boxerevo, 30 July 2014 - 02:15.
#49
Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:43
I found it silly to go from one extreme to the other. Just wish they'd make their minds up and be consistant race to race. Especially when it comes to unsafe pit releases.
#50
Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:03
Some are advocating the idea to be obliged to allow all-4-wheels space for the car on the outside of a corner? (we are talking corners, not straights)
You realise if that was a strict rule then Hamilton would just outbrake everyone in F1 and they would have to lift according to the rules? He would then abuse this rule and make overtaking a piece of cake for himself. And some would then cry he is sticking his nose where it doesn't belong