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THE BRAVE NEW ERA OF STEWARDING....LET THEM RACE!


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#51 PayasYouRace

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:06

It's always been acceptable to run someone out to the edge when they're on the outside and not quite alongside.

 

Anyway it's nice to see a slightly more lax, common sense attitude from the stewards. I only want to see blatantly reckless or intentional stuff punished.



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#52 Gareth

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:08

Can anyone show me the exact rules, please?

20.4 of the F1 sporting regs.

 

Michael Schumacher almost killed Rubins when his gave him only inches at the last second to avoid a concrete wall they were racing towards on a front straight. Then, Nico R forced both Shoemacher and Hamilton off the track completely, at I think Bahrain. After all that, in the new year the FIA passed a law saying that drivers must give other drivers at least the width of a car between the edge of the track, when a substantial part of the outside car is overlapped. The teams shot back, what does a substantial part of the car mean, the FIA said, ANY PART OF THE FRONT WING OVERLAPPING ANY PART OF THE FOWARD CAR. It was unequivocal, a cars width must be offered to a car that is overlapped with you.

So we have all watched and not seen a single moment where the FIA has found fault with any driver giving less then a width. When Alonso did his thing against Vettel at Monza, nothing, the next year Vettle giving it to Alonso, nothing.

Everyone wake up, the FIA race stewards are ignoring a rule the FIA  passed and is on the books, call it what you will, stop waiting for the FIA stewards to come down on someone who brakes that rule, it is not going to happen, its better racing for it. When LH overtook Vergne, after Rosberg could not do so for 15 laps he did so on the outside and running over the curbs, didn’t look like enough room to me, but no harm no foul. Hamilton gets it, its racing and its risky and he is all in with that game.

Stop waiting for the FIA to do their jobs. Always remember Spa 2008, Hamilton won and the FIA took the win away from him, they made up a new rule at the event in order to do so. It was worse in 2008 under Max M, we should be thankful.

The rule only applies to straights and braking areas.



#53 Gyno

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:37

Michael Schumacher almost killed Rubins when his gave him only inches at the last second to avoid a concrete wall they were racing towards on a front straight.

 

:rotfl:

 

Goood one.



#54 Myrvold

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:52

Can anyone show me the exact rules, please?


20) DRIVING
20.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.
20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.
20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.
For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.
20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
20.6 As soon as a car is caught by another car which is about to lap it during the race the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first available opportunity. If the driver who has been caught does not allow the faster driver past, waved blue flags will be shown to indicate that he must allow the following driver to overtake.

I've bolded out the parts that applies to this particular Hamilton v Rosberg incident, as that is the main thing that's being discussed - and because Hamilton jerked to the right mid-corner. 

 

Some are advocating the idea to be obliged to allow all-4-wheels space for the car on the outside of a corner? (we are talking corners, not straights)

You realise if that was a strict rule then Hamilton would just outbrake everyone in F1 and they would have to lift according to the rules? He would then abuse this rule and make overtaking a piece of cake for himself. And some would then cry he is sticking his nose where it doesn't belong  :p


If he is far enough on the side/close enough to be able to outbrake, then he would get on the side. That doesn't mean the driver in 'front' have to lift, just give enough room. There is a big difference between 'lift' and 'give room'.



#55 Gareth

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:59

20) DRIVING
20.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.
20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.
20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.
For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.
20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
20.6 As soon as a car is caught by another car which is about to lap it during the race the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first available opportunity. If the driver who has been caught does not allow the faster driver past, waved blue flags will be shown to indicate that he must allow the following driver to overtake.

I've bolded out the parts that applies to this particular Hamilton v Rosberg incident, as that is the main thing that's being discussed - and because Hamilton jerked to the right mid-corner. 

 


If he is far enough on the side/close enough to be able to outbrake, then he would get on the side. That doesn't mean the driver in 'front' have to lift, just give enough room. There is a big difference between 'lift' and 'give room'.

20.4 doesn't apply, as it only covers the straight.

 

20.5 does apply and has been in the rulebook for years.  It is not interpreted to prevent 'hanging out to dry' a driver on the outside who has not got his nose in front.  This is why Rosberg did that to Bottas at T1 and said post-race that Hamilton's defence was fair.



#56 nosecone

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:04

It was obvious when Sky showed the onboard footage that Lewis didn't force Nico off the track.

This!

 

Rosberg could have lifted but he didn't. It was a fair battle although maybe a bit harsh but F1 ain't easy. I've been so glad that the stewards took no action on this situation. Well done stewards!



#57 Nick Planas

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 12:37

Rosberg has been quoted as follows: "The thing I'm most annoyed about is the last lap, though, because I had a little opportunity and was just so close but didn't manage to use it - there was just 30 centimetres missing or something.

 

What he [Lewis] did was okay, the way he defended, because the guy on the inside, it's his corner, so the guy on the outside needs to make it far enough in front that the other guy can't push him out.

 

I didn't manage to do that, so that's what annoys me the most."

 

I see two guys giving it everything, giving nothing away, taking it to the very edge of acceptability but they both do it. We should revel in this and stop trying to analyse every tiny little move at every corner - it's called racing!


Edited by Nick Planas, 30 July 2014 - 12:50.


#58 7MGTEsup

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 13:02

 Maybe Lewis should've just opened the door, rolled out the carpet then said "after you mate"

 

You mean like he did with Ricciardo?



#59 ForeverF1

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 13:05

You mean like he did with Ricciardo?

Did he lift and wait for Ricciardo to pass? Did the Stewards pass judgement on this?



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#60 7MGTEsup

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 13:14

Did he lift and wait for Ricciardo to pass? Did the Stewards pass judgement on this?

 

What I'm saying is he gave Ricciardo way more room than he gave Rosberg, hence the "after you mate" I was quoting.



#61 ForeverF1

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 13:20

What I'm saying is he gave Ricciardo way more room than he gave Rosberg, hence the "after you mate" I was quoting.

In the context of the thread OP, did the Stewards pass judgement? Or, in the interests of 'racing' did they keep quiet?



#62 Burtros

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 17:15

That doesn't make it right according to the rules, there is no doubt at all that this is the second time this year where Rosberg have been on the outside of Hamilton, and ended up off the track due to Hamilton forcing the issue, in Bahrain one used the "racing line" argument, that doesn't work here.

 

Coming of the racing line is part of defending? I cant think of any series I follow where that would have been against the rules.

 

Looking at the bigger picture, where do we stop? how far away are we from turning the defending driver into a sitting duck here? With DRS its already a bad situation. Part of the joy of Hungary was the fact DRS wasnt that effective so the skill of defensive driving became more important.



#63 Gareth

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 17:19

You mean like he did with Ricciardo?

Ricciardo got his nose in front, so was entitled to a car's width.  Nico didn't, so (as he says himself) was not entitled to one.