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How Merc cost themselves a double podium


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#1 Timorous

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:15

This all boils down to Hamilton's second pit stop. They should have put him on the option tyre with the intention of doing 2 15 lap stints.

 

The last 4 laps he did on 30 lap old options when in clear air averaged out to 1:27.750, he obviously had a lot of pace even on worn option tyres and the prime were not showing any longevity benefits over the option for the entire weekend, why Merc though the prime was a better choice than the option baffles me.

 

When Nico got into clear air after his pit stop and before he got behind Lewis his lap times were about 2s faster than prior to his stop, granted he was being held up a bit by Kyvat a bit but as he was not able to overtake the performance deficit was less than 1s/lap so lets assume that Hamilton would have been 1s/lap faster on his new options than on his worn options (I think this is a conservative estimate but still) This would have put him in the 26.75's this would have been 1.5s/lap faster than his mediums between laps 40 and 55.

 

Over the 15 lap stint that would have meant he was 22.5s faster than he was on the prime, he would have caught and overtaken both Alonso and Massa. Ricciardo was doing 1:28.5's during that period so it is also possible he could have over taken him as well and had a slight lead going into the pit stop phase on lap 55. At the very leas he would have been right on Ricciardo's gear box going into the pit stops and then it would have been a 15 lap battle for 1st.

 

This would have also meant that Nico was not held up by Hamilton for 11 laps which would have gained him ~ 10s provided he could overtake Alonso swiftly.

 

This strategy would have guaranteed Merc atleast a 2-3 and a 1-2 was possible if Lewis and Nico had got the overtaking done.

 

All this talk of Lewis holding up Nico is besides the point, if the team had chosen the right strategy both cars would have done better than they did and the team orders fiasco would never have come about and we would all be talking about a stunning race without the controversy. Ultimately it was the strategy that Merc chose for Lewis that cost them points, not what the drivers did on track.



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#2 teejay

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:17

Woulda coulda shoulda



#3 Ev0d3vil

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:20

Merc cost themselves a double podium by not maintaining reliability on their cars.

#4 Timorous

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:20

Woulda coulda shoulda

The prime was crap all weekend so there was no reason for Merc to use it over the option, it was a terrible call, almost as bad as Macca going for inters at the 1st safety car.



#5 lustigson

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:41

If Hamilton had let Rosberg by, Mercedes would have had a chance at victory and hence a double podium.

 

However, I don't blame Hamilton for not doing so — it was up to Rosberg to get within DRS range and he didn't do so. Rosberg, I think, isn't aggressive enough in this regard. Just look at the fact that he was behind Vergne for 17 (!) laps, unable to overtake, while after Rosberg's pitstop, Hamilton passed Vergne at the first opportunity.

 

The good thing for Rosberg regarding this might be that he as scored points in all but one race, this season, and was on the podium all of those races bar one, and still leads the championship standings.



#6 fed up

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:44

Merc cost themselves a double podium by not maintaining reliability on their cars.

This



#7 Kristian

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:51

 

 

However, I don't blame Hamilton for not doing so — it was up to Rosberg to get within DRS range and he didn't do so. Rosberg, I think, isn't aggressive enough in this regard. Just look at the fact that he was behind Vergne for 17 (!) laps, unable to overtake, while after Rosberg's pitstop, Hamilton passed Vergne at the first opportunity.

 

 

The thing is Rosberg would probably have been on a high-downforce set-up (maybe with weather in mind) whilst Lewis, having broken parc ferme, was probably put on a much 'racier' set up, hence the problems with Rosberg overtaking JEV and also getting close to Lewis. 



#8 boldhakka

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:53

The thing is Rosberg would probably have been on a high-downforce set-up (maybe with weather in mind) whilst Lewis, having broken parc ferme, was probably put on a much 'racier' set up, hence the problems with Rosberg overtaking JEV and also getting close to Lewis. 

 

The thing is, I looked at the speed trap and top speed figures to see if there something to support this, but there isn't. He has roughly the same numbers, and some even higher, as Lewis does. 



#9 fisssssi

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:54

Poor Mercedes... it's been so long since their last double podium! I mean a whole 7 days! Heads are going to roll after yesterday's embarrassing display.

 

In seriousness, kudos to Hamilton for realising the team doesn't need the constructors points nearly as much as he needs the driver's points.



#10 TomNokoe

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:57

Strategy sucked
Rosberg's racecraft sucked
Hamilton was on fire in parc ferme

Many a reason

#11 teejay

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:00

Hungary, like Monaco, usually means track position is king.

 

Not yesterday.



#12 Timorous

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:05

Hungary, like Monaco, usually means track position is king.

 

Not yesterday.

Then they should have told Lewis to do 30 laps on softs, it was doable and his were brand new so he had a better chance of it coming off than Alonso who had to use tyres that were worn from qualifying.

 

Either way the use of the medium was a totally wrong call and they need to have a good look inside their organisation to make sure the mistake that led to the fuel leak does not happen again, the mistake that led to the stupid team orders call does not happen again and the mistake that led to using the wrong tyre does not happen again.

 

The fact Lewis got from the pit lane to the podium, despite spinning off the track at turn 2, shows how much of a rocket ship they have but they also need to get the strategy right in mixed wet/dry races and with safety cars to give your drivers the best chance at using the cars speed.



#13 Jon83

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:08

They'll still win the WCC and WDC by a country mile.

 

This whole thing is being over-analysed.



#14 TF110

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:13

I agree that he could easily have done 30 laps on softs like Alonso. This isnt hindsight either. They can see the pace his first set of softs had towards the end of that stint. If he had been allowed 2/3 more laps on that stint, it would make the second soft-tire stint much easier to believe itd last to the end. It wouldve worked and merc screwed up because they elected for an 'alternate strategy' to their "lead driver", Rosberg. Sad. Btw, if the thread is bothersome to people, why post here?

Edited by TF110, 28 July 2014 - 09:14.


#15 Timorous

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:23

I agree that he could easily have done 30 laps on softs like Alonso. This isnt hindsight either. They can see the pace his first set of softs had towards the end of that stint. If he had been allowed 2/3 more laps on that stint, it would make the second soft-tire stint much easier to believe itd last to the end. It wouldve worked and merc screwed up because they elected for an 'alternate strategy' to their "lead driver", Rosberg. Sad. Btw, if the thread is bothersome to people, why post here?

Easily because Hamilton's softs were brand new but Alonso's were used from quali (I think).



#16 scheivlak

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 11:34

Easily because Hamilton's softs were brand new but Alonso's were used from quali (I think).

According to Forix Alonso was on new softs on his last stint.



#17 Timorous

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 11:55

According to Forix Alonso was on new softs on his last stint.

I stand corrected then. Still doable though and at a higher pace than the mediums allowed.

 

Either strategy would have worked and going soft would have protected against a late safety car or rain.



#18 Kraken

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:05

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Monday morning strategists always make the right calls.



#19 HoldenRT

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:25

4 weeks until the next race.. :lol:


Edited by HoldenRT, 28 July 2014 - 12:25.


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#20 BillBald

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:25

The prime was crap all weekend so there was no reason for Merc to use it over the option, it was a terrible call, almost as bad as Macca going for inters at the 1st safety car.

 

Don't forget McLaren also went for the prime, what's it called when every decision is bad?

 

A grand *******



#21 AriGoldBawse

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:40

why do they always split the strategies 

 

should of just put them both on the options and let them race. imo they wanted rosberg to win the race as he was on pole and the safety car messed his race



#22 ThadGreen

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:14

Poor Mercedes... it's been so long since their last double podium! I mean a whole 7 days! Heads are going to roll after yesterday's embarrassing display.

 

In seriousness, kudos to Hamilton for realising the team doesn't need the constructors points nearly as much as he needs the driver's points.

 

 

This may be true and not just because they are a German Company :yawnface: but because of the sight of Hamilton's car engulfed in flames.



#23 KiloWatt

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:19

Merc cost themselves a double podium by not maintaining reliability on their cars.

 

My memory really is sincerely bad, but I don't recall Rosberg having reliability problems in the race or qualifying.  How did hamiltons reliability problems stop Rosberg from being on the podium too?  Am I missing something here?


Edited by KiloWatt, 28 July 2014 - 13:20.


#24 discover23

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:23

The reason they did not get a double podium was because of Alonso.. and the reason why Alonso didn't win was because of Ricciardo.



#25 Farhannn15

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:28

Merc should have put Hamilton onto the softs and Rosberg should have pitted on lap 50 so he could have more time at the end to overtake



#26 Riverside

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:34

My memory really is sincerely bad, but I don't recall Rosberg having reliability problems in the race or qualifying.  How did hamiltons reliability problems stop Rosberg from being on the podium too?  Am I missing something here?

 

   Rosberg had brake issues.   When is the last time you saw smoking brakes behind a safety car ?    Paddy also mentions brake management issues , for both cars ...



#27 Timorous

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:40

My memory really is sincerely bad, but I don't recall Rosberg having reliability problems in the race or qualifying.  How did hamiltons reliability problems stop Rosberg from being on the podium too?  Am I missing something here?

It could be argued that because Hamilton had reliability issues in quali he was out of position when Rosberg pitted and ended up behind him on the different tyre which cost Rosberg around 10s (Assuming he could have got pas.

 

Reliability is part and parcel of racing though so I do not see this argument as that valid. The strategy though was entirely in Mercedes's hands and if they had done the obvious thing they would have been in a position to win the race, or as the thread title says get a double podium.



#28 Jvr

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 13:50

If Hamilton had let Rosberg by, Mercedes would have had a chance at victory and hence a double podium.
 
However, I don't blame Hamilton for not doing so — it was up to Rosberg to get within DRS range and he didn't do so. Rosberg, I think, isn't aggressive enough in this regard. Just look at the fact that he was behind Vergne for 17 (!) laps, unable to overtake, while after Rosberg's pitstop, Hamilton passed Vergne at the first opportunity.
 
The good thing for Rosberg regarding this might be that he as scored points in all but one race, this season, and was on the podium all of those races bar one, and still leads the championship standings.


Rosberg having had a brake problem for almost complete interval between the two safety cars explains a lot...

#29 KiloWatt

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 14:00

   Rosberg had brake issues.   When is the last time you saw smoking brakes behind a safety car ?    Paddy also mentions brake management issues , for both cars ...

 

I didn't even see that.  I watched the race in a noisy sports bar, but fair enough.  I have my doubts about whether this cost them a double podium though.  From what I saw, both cars were still plenty fast even with the brake problems.



#30 hodgy21

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 14:20

I didn't even see that.  I watched the race in a noisy sports bar, but fair enough.  I have my doubts about whether this cost them a double podium though.  From what I saw, both cars were still plenty fast even with the brake problems.

 

I believe Rosberg's brake problems cleared on lap 21.



#31 Ricardo F1

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 17:37

The reason they did not get a double podium was because of Alonso.. and the reason why Alonso didn't win was because of Ricciardo.

Yeah but Alonso came 2nd by cutting the chicane Rosberg style.  :cool:



#32 Timorous

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 17:42

The reason they did not get a double podium was because of Alonso.. and the reason why Alonso didn't win was because of Ricciardo.

Not really, with the correct strategy Merc would have had a 1-3 easily and the possibility of 1-2.

 

Alonso did a great job but if Mercedes had done the correct thing for the team then it is very unlikely Alonso could have held Hamilton off, he would have been atleast 1s/lap faster than Alonso on the same compound but more likely 1.5s/lap, plenty of advantage to make an overtake stick.