228 replies to this topic

[Jovanotti]

I would like to ask those who voted for Kimi to please remove themselves from this forum.

Maybe they did so just to take the piss of people who got their heads stuck up their backsides like you.

Edited by Jovanotti, 30 July 2014 - 15:46.

[TomNokoe]

I find it really hard to vote for Bottas.

He was out qualified by Massa in Australia. Massa then taken out by a Caterham at turn 1 while he was ahead of Bottas.

Bottas then hits the wall while running 6th, with at least 3rd place in his sights. A safety car for his own accident allows him to rejoin the pack and he fights his way back to 6th.

Out qualified again in Malaysia, and relies on team orders in the race to get him ahead of Massa, who doesn't comply.

Finally out qualifies Massa in Bahrain but Massa has a lightning start and is 3rd by T1. Massa has a 4s lead approaching the first stops, but Williams give Bottas the undercut and he ends the pit sequence ahead. Bottas is given the undercut again at the second stops and pulls out an 8 second lead on fresher tyres. Massa reduces this gap to basically nothing after his own stop. Massa is then given his own undercut and comes out ahead of Bottas. Safety car neutralises the race. Bottas has 6 lap younger tyres but cannot find a way through.

In China Bottas was out qualified again, Massa is considerably ahead approaching the first stops. Something happened at the stop (were they inspecting damage?) and Massa dropped way down the order.

In Spain Bottas finally came alive when he seriously outraced Massa all weekend.


Since then Massa has had all sorts of trouble with other drivers. Ericsson hit him in Monaco quali which left him unable to set a time in Q2. Perez moved over on him in Canada (when he was comfortably ahead of Bottas), which compounded a race he could have won if not for a slow first stop. He had the Kimi incident at Silverstone, and then the Magnussen flip, which can be blamed a little on him, but that's the only incident that can.

Bottas has done well since Spain, and only since Spain, but even so he's bad a teammate who's had all sorts of problems.

I don't think he should get a free pass because he's good potential.

Edited by TomNokoe, 30 July 2014 - 15:50.

[f1RacingForever]

Maybe they did so just to take the piss of people who got their heads stuck up their backsides like you.

Nice troll comment. I am not mad. Just amused.

[bub]

I don't think he should get a free pass because he's good potential.

 

 

I don't think he should be marked down too much just because he has been out-qualified a few times and because his teammate has had issues either. Hamilton has also been out-qualified a few times and Alonso, Rosberg and Ricciardo's teammates have also had their issues. 

I don't think Bottas is getting a free pass because of potential, I think he is being voted for because he has been performing impressively.

Top 3 drivers of the season so far is difficult to decide and Bottas is a viable candidate for one of those spots.

[DavidHeath461]

Yeah Kimi has complained about the car, but in his case I see it, mostly, as a complaint about how the car does not suit his style. Massa complained too for sure as have, probably, all drivers. My point is that, IMO, in the last 4 years, there's no driver that has complained about his car so consistently and frequently as FA, even when the Ferrari was not that bad at all, especially in race pace. This has, also, IMO, willingly or unwillingly, created the impression, true or not, that he's always overdriving his car. As FA is a very political driver, I honestly don't know what to make of the real level of Ferrari in the last 4 seasons.

So Alonso has brainwashed everyone into thinking his car is rubbish? I didn't realise he had those kind of hypnotic powers!

You could perhaps look at how well is highly rated teammate is doing in comparison.

[TomNokoe]

So Alonso has brainwashed everyone into thinking his car is rubbish? I didn't realise he had those kind of hypnotic powers!

You could perhaps look at how well is highly rated teammate is doing in comparison.

Kimi is driving terribly though, so we have no idea how good the car is.

Many times with Button at McLaren, and even sometimes with Massa at Ferrari, they'd have a good weekend, and it showed you they could take the car to where Hamilton/Alonso could, and it validated the other drivers achievements. Kimi has been nowhere near Alonso at all. Apart from one quali session in Spain.

Edited by TomNokoe, 30 July 2014 - 18:09.

[discover23]

Yeah Kimi has complained about the car, but in his case I see it, mostly, as a complaint about how the car does not suit his style. Massa complained too for sure as have, probably, all drivers. My point is that, IMO, in the last 4 years, there's no driver that has complained about his car so consistently and frequently as FA, even when the Ferrari was not that bad at all, especially in race pace. This has, also, IMO, willingly or unwillingly, created the impression, true or not, that he's always overdriving his car. As FA is a very political driver, I honestly don't know what to make of the real level of Ferrari in the last 4 seasons.

Alonso doesn't have that power .. The perception is created from all the praise he gets from just about everyone in the paddock after his phenomenal performances just like he did last weekend.

[Dick Dastardly]

Even Alonso would vote for Ricciardo. given the praise he gave DR following their Hockenheim duel...

[crespo]

Kimi is driving terribly though, so we have no idea how good the car is.

Many times with Button at McLaren, and even sometimes with Massa at Ferrari, they'd have a good weekend, and it showed you they could take the car to where Hamilton/Alonso could, and it validated the other drivers achievements. Kimi has been nowhere near Alonso at all. Apart from one quali session in Spain.

Will this line chase Alonso around any time he beats his teammate? I guess only time will tell. 

 

My vote does go to Ricciardo btw, this coming from a native Alonso fan 

Edited by crespo, 30 July 2014 - 20:43.

[RealRacing]

So Alonso has brainwashed everyone into thinking his car is rubbish? I didn't realise he had those kind of hypnotic powers!

You could perhaps look at how well is highly rated teammate is doing in comparison.

I don't know if he has brainwashed everybody or not. I just know that, given his history on discrediting his car, I will remain quietly skeptical.

 

Regarding his teammate, I believe we still don't have enough info. to give a final judgement on that.

[RealRacing]

Alonso doesn't have that power .. The perception is created from all the praise he gets from just about everyone in the paddock after his phenomenal performances just like he did last weekend.

There's been lots of praise for many drivers from the paddock and many amazing performances from many drivers. I believe none of those drivers have put the car down as much as FA has over the years.

[Flyhigh]

I find it really hard to vote for Bottas.

He was out qualified by Massa in Australia. Massa then taken out by a Caterham at turn 1 while he was ahead of Bottas.

Bottas then hits the wall while running 6th, with at least 3rd place in his sights. A safety car for his own accident allows him to rejoin the pack and he fights his way back to 6th.

Out qualified again in Malaysia, and relies on team orders in the race to get him ahead of Massa, who doesn't comply.

Finally out qualifies Massa in Bahrain but Massa has a lightning start and is 3rd by T1. Massa has a 4s lead approaching the first stops, but Williams give Bottas the undercut and he ends the pit sequence ahead. Bottas is given the undercut again at the second stops and pulls out an 8 second lead on fresher tyres. Massa reduces this gap to basically nothing after his own stop. Massa is then given his own undercut and comes out ahead of Bottas. Safety car neutralises the race. Bottas has 6 lap younger tyres but cannot find a way through.

In China Bottas was out qualified again, Massa is considerably ahead approaching the first stops. Something happened at the stop (were they inspecting damage?) and Massa dropped way down the order.

In Spain Bottas finally came alive when he seriously outraced Massa all weekend.


Since then Massa has had all sorts of trouble with other drivers. Ericsson hit him in Monaco quali which left him unable to set a time in Q2. Perez moved over on him in Canada (when he was comfortably ahead of Bottas), which compounded a race he could have won if not for a slow first stop. He had the Kimi incident at Silverstone, and then the Magnussen flip, which can be blamed a little on him, but that's the only incident that can.

Bottas has done well since Spain, and only since Spain, but even so he's bad a teammate who's had all sorts of problems.

I don't think he should get a free pass because he's good potential.

Bottas is being clearly overhyped, sure he is having a good season, but people saying he is down for sure on a WDC are just being overly impressed by grid position with the Williams car. It goes back to driver analytics, Bottas has shown he is fast,sure, there is no more doubt in my mind that he has top speed, being at least as quick as Massa even in qualies several times, which is no small skill. But he has not really shown the complete package yet, racecraft, strong reaction capability, strategy intelligence on the go, being able to pass cars timely etc. All things that are very important along with just speed.

If you were to do a direct poll between him and Hulkenberg for who is the biggest potential, I am afraid he would come on top, even though Hulkenberg has shown a larger set of qualities described above, along with just speed. 

[Alfisti]

Just re-watched Germany, laps 11 through 13, Ricciardo is extraordinary, really is. Hamilton ALL OVER HIM and he finds a way to get Kimi between himself and Lewis. It's brilliant driving. 

[garagetinkerer]

Bottas is being clearly overhyped, sure he is having a good season, but people saying he is down for sure on a WDC are just being overly impressed by grid position with the Williams car. It goes back to driver analytics, Bottas has shown he is fast,sure, there is no more doubt in my mind that he has top speed, being at least as quick as Massa even in qualies several times, which is no small skill. But he has not really shown the complete package yet, racecraft, strong reaction capability, strategy intelligence on the go, being able to pass cars timely etc. All things that are very important along with just speed.

If you were to do a direct poll between him and Hulkenberg for who is the biggest potential, I am afraid he would come on top, even though Hulkenberg has shown a larger set of qualities described above, along with just speed. 

I have my proper doubts about Bottas. Can't fault him too much though... but again, nothing too exceptional either. Seemed like he was the favoured son at Williams last year as well , and pit strategies this year also are somewhat lop sided. I could be wrong, but happening over two years, is either properly shocking work, or is just not a coincidence. It is not like Williams haven't done this in the past... so i wouldn't be surprised if it were the case.

 

Alonso, Ricciardo and Rosberg. Rosberg may be a bit controversial choice, but how many saw him leading the WDC at this point in season? Both drivers have traded luck, even as soon as Hungary, and there's very little to complain about. 

[Zoetrope]

Just re-watched Germany, laps 11 through 13, Ricciardo is extraordinary, really is. Hamilton ALL OVER HIM and he finds a way to get Kimi between himself and Lewis. It's brilliant driving. 

Absolutely. I have always regarded Lewis the best overtaker, but Ricciardo might be even better. Of course it's still too early to say, but he is the first driver that even springs such a notion into my mind 

[TomNokoe]

I was too young and amateur to compute 2007 and HAMs arrival, but I imagine that is was similar to what we are experiencing now with Mr Ricciardo!

[Owen]

8 votes for Maldonado... just putting it out there. 

[BillBald]

Alonso, Ricciardo and Button.

 

The first two probably need no explanation.

 

Jenson I believe is having a great season, showing the way to an excellent young driver, even though the team sometimes give the impression that they would prefer K-Mag to beat him. Jenson by all accounts had less simulator time with the new car before the season, has had less testing, and was given the new rear wing a crucial day later than Kevin. If I were inclined to conspiracy theories, I might suspect that replacing his RE midseason had some sinister motive. He's also had the worst of McLaren's rather poor strategies this season, but I'm sure that's down to bad luck..

 

I think the current F1 really suits Jenson more than the V8 era did. The V8s rewarded aggressive driving, whereas with the current cars a combination of driving skill and intelligence is what is needed. I think that McLaren don't really appreciate what they have. The suggestion that they might want to replace him with the underperforming Vettel is frankly ridiculous.

[garagetinkerer]

Alonso, Ricciardo and Button.

 

The first two probably need no explanation.

 

Jenson I believe is having a great season, showing the way to an excellent young driver, even though the team sometimes give the impression that they would prefer K-Mag to beat him. Jenson by all accounts had less simulator time with the new car before the season, has had less testing, and was given the new rear wing a crucial day later than Kevin. If I were inclined to conspiracy theories, I might suspect that replacing his RE midseason had some sinister motive. He's also had the worst of McLaren's rather poor strategies this season, but I'm sure that's down to bad luck..

 

I think the current F1 really suits Jenson more than the V8 era did. The V8s rewarded aggressive driving, whereas with the current cars a combination of driving skill and intelligence is what is needed. I think that McLaren don't really appreciate what they have. The suggestion that they might want to replace him with the underperforming Vettel is frankly ridiculous.

  JB's been surprising a fair few, i guess including some at McLaren. I wonder why never most of it ever gets any press time, given what all you have listed. I think i read nothing at all about anything in press... may be it eluded me, or i managed to somehow miss it, but i'm quite surprised.

 

The problem this year, unlike previous ones, is that you have a very limited number of parts. I think Hungary was Vettel's third race on fourth of most parts. Surely they're running some bits as conservatively as they could/ would, to avoid penalties. As some penalties even carry over, which is worrying. It is bad, but it looks worse than it should be because of it. For contrast, try this. Ricciardo's car is the Renault powered car which faced the least amount of complications. On the other hand, Vettel's had more races with problems, than without so far during the season, and i had to guess, the only car at the front with as many problems. This economy formula means, that if your run has a bit of a bad luck coming your way, your year could be wasted (to be polite.) Next year, they only have 4 of everything, and i wonder if it will get worse for some.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 01 August 2014 - 01:47.

[slideways]

I was too young and amateur to compute 2007 and HAMs arrival, but I imagine that is was similar to what we are experiencing now with Mr Ricciardo!

Maybe in the sense of a moment of revelation for a driver (more affirmation for DR). Can't see many other similarities though. DR is a well oiled machine, Hamilton was a fresh rookie with the combination of raw speed and lack of polish.

[f1RacingForever]

Caterham drivers. They deserve medals for keeping those cars on track.

[HeadFirst]

Many out of work stand-up comics find solace in the forum.

[A.Fant]

I have my proper doubts about Bottas. Can't fault him too much though... but again, nothing too exceptional either. Seemed like he was the favoured son at Williams last year as well , and pit strategies this year also are somewhat lop sided. I could be wrong, but happening over two years, is either properly shocking work, or is just not a coincidence. It is not like Williams haven't done this in the past... so i wouldn't be surprised if it were the case.

 

Alonso, Ricciardo and Rosberg. Rosberg may be a bit controversial choice, but how many saw him leading the WDC at this point in season? Both drivers have traded luck, even as soon as Hungary, and there's very little to complain about. 

Strategies? I can't think of a race where Massa has lost out to Bottas by the team giving him an inferior strategy, he did lose a lot of places in China due to a slow pit-stop but that's not strategy. I can think of several instances of the opposite however.

 

In Bahrain, Massa was given the undercut on Bottas at the last stop despite Bottas being ahead, though Bottas was ahead due to being given the undercut at the first stop as his tyres fell of faster than Massa's. This was basically the team giving Massa the position back to be nice to him as "he shouldn't be punished for managing the tyres better in the 1st stint".

 

In Canada, Bottas was pitted too early into traffic and suffered greatly for it. He was running ahead of Ricciardo before the stop, and had they waited a few laps to be sure to come out ahead of the traffic like RBR did he would have had a great chance to win the race.

 

In Hungary, Williams were far too optimistic of the medium tyre and had Bottas trying to nurse a set for way too long. The SC issue was just bad luck though.

[PassWind]

8 votes for Maldonado... just putting it out there. 

 

I am not sure if he deserves sympathy, but he must be kicking himself in the backside or getting others to do it for him leaving Williams the way he did, because he is never going back there. 

[bub]

I was too young and amateur to compute 2007 and HAMs arrival, but I imagine that is was similar to what we are experiencing now with Mr Ricciardo!

 

Doing shockingly well compared to multiple WDC teammate.

Showing great speed and wheel to wheel racing ability.

Convincing people that there is a new top tier driver in the field.

 

I can see the similarities.

[sopa]

Absolutely. I have always regarded Lewis the best overtaker, but Ricciardo might be even better. Of course it's still too early to say, but he is the first driver that even springs such a notion into my mind 

 

Not to mention Ricciardo hasn't really had any accidents yet, which for me is very impressive in a young driver especially if he battles aggressively on track.

[HeadFirst]

His composure is very impressive, and he has the pace as well.

[MotorsportFerrari]

Alonso and Daniel clearly stand out.

 

Daniel settled in very quickly. He loves being at RB and in the focus of attention. He is keen on talking to people, I also have a few personal experiences with him. He has all the ingredients a drivers needs: he is super-fast, is consistent, can attack, his manoeuvres are clear. 

 

Although not being a Vettel-fan, I have to defend him. Everyone haild him for 4 years, now he is being heavily criticized. I think he will come back sooner and later and will surprise a few people. I think a few factors have contributed to his decline: 1) RB lost that incredible rear downforce due to the ban of blown diffuser, 2) he is unmotivated (admitted by Marko) for not having the best car, 3) Daniel's inredible motivation darkens the situation as well 4) he is a father and wants to spend more time with his family (he rushed back home from Australia during the race when his car broke down. I think he never ever would have done anything like that in the past), 5) he looked after the tyres well and now he lost that sense or the oppurtunity to capatalize on that because Pirelli doesn't supply rubber this year, but tyres made from stone.

 

Alonso

 

He is the master of F1 as stated by Emerson Fittipaldi a few weeks ago. I didn't like his attitude before, I even hated him for his naughty move on Michael in FP3 of the 2006 Hungarian GP, but that guy is the driver of the past decade. His motivation, work morale, not to mention his speed, ability to look after the tyres, his fantastic manoeuvres on anyone are mesmeirizng. I noticed he is a mental block for Lewis, Fernando is the only one Lewis has had a hard time while overtaking since 2010. I wish Fernando a competitive car as early as next year, I think he will be on the rampage and nobody could stop him.

 

You shouldn't forget Bianchi, Hülkenberg, Kvyat though. Perez was also very strong in some races and beat Nico. Vergne had also two or three weekends when he showed his talent. The truth is Formula-1 has been very competitive since 2008 in terms of drivers, we should be very grateful for having such talents. Only Chilton, Ericckson throw up a few question marks whether they have place in F1, they both have some talent, though.

Edited by MotorsportFerrari, 02 August 2014 - 06:17.

[Dunc]

Went with Hamilton, Ricciardo and Alonso.

 

Hamilton because considering the luck he's had and the fact that Nico is making the best out of his situation being only 11 points behind is pretty impressive.  I still think he's on course to win the WDC.  Plus his drives in both Germany and Hungary were amazing attacks from the back.

 

Ricciardo is doing a great job in what is clearly not that great a car.  I'm not sure if the potential WDC label that's been applied to him is right just yet, he's never been under the same sort of pressure that the five WDCs, Massa, Rubens and Webber have been in the last five seasons, but he is clearly having a very good season.

 

Alonso just pipped Bottas because he's been a little more consistent but he's doing a great job with a pretty sub-par car.  I really hope he gets back behind the wheel of something competitive next season, despite being in F1 since 2001 he's clearly as hungry as ever for success.  I do wonder if he was in the Williams instead of Massa where would that team's comeback be now.

Edited by Dunc, 02 August 2014 - 15:54.