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A discussion on the work of Harry Miller


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#1 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 18:14

Ok - here it is - maybe we could start by drawing some comparisons between Miller and Chapman, as Michael has already pointed out in the derailed 1983-front wings thread some strong similarities between the two .

 

I wonder how familiar Chapman was with Miller's work at the time he was starting Lotus? My guess is not very?

 

Peter



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#2 Henri Greuter

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 18:20

Well to start with,

 

Chapman was much more of a chassis man then an engine man. While Harry stared out with carburettors, then complete engines and chassis followed later on if it came to producing them..

 

 

Henri



#3 Michael Ferner

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 18:39

Not very likely that Chapman knew of Miller at all! Even in America, Miller was largely forgotten until Griff Borgeson began investigating the era (in the late fifties, I want to say).

#4 Henri Greuter

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 19:07

Not very likely that Chapman knew of Miller at all! Even in America, Miller was largely forgotten until Griff Borgeson began investigating the era (in the late fifties, I want to say).

 

It has always been a source of humor to me that we owe it to one of Europe's best known constructors that there are at least two Miller FWD cars that survived the US depression and because of that have become the most authentic, genuine Miller FWD cars in existance.

Leon Duray sold off his two 91Ci FWD cars to Ettore Bugatti in 1929 (after racing them at Monza that year) and the cars remained in Europe. While the majority of the other FWD Millers (and RWD Millers for that matter) that still existed were converted into the twoseaters of the Junk era and were almost used up.

 

I doubt if Colin was familiar with Harry's work.

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 28 July 2014 - 19:08.


#5 Michael Ferner

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 19:11

Another thing to consider: the general attitude of Europe towards US racing and speed records: before WW1, Europe didn't have much to fear from the stateside manufacturers, but by 1919 the US had done a magnificent job of catching up, so much so that Duesenberg won the Grand Prix in '21 - a shock to the system! When the first Millers reached the European shores two years later, they did well, but were beaten rather soundly by the supercharged Fiats, so order was restored. But: by then, road racing was deader than dead across the pond, and even on a track like Monza the Millers suffered from inferior handling, because they only needed to go round in perfect circles in the US. Also, the cars that were sent to Europe were already obsolescent, as the new single-seater rules for the 2-liter cars saw another huge leap in performance levels, exacerbated by the introduction of supercharging the next year.

A little anecdote may illustrate the European attitude: Antoine Mourre, a French amateur driver and "wheeler-dealer" with good connections to the US, spent the year 1924 racing a brand new Miller on US speed bowls, and came back to Europe in the winter with glowing reports before the general assembly of the ACF about the marvelous speed of the American cars, only to be (almost literally) "laughed out of the academy" - nobody believed him! It must also be remembered that, during the time the AAA was still considered an "outlaw" by the AIACR, and in general news from the US got lumped together as circus propaganda - which, in truth, it was at least in part; see the 1922 "three-mile-a-minute" run by Sig Haugdahl.

There was little time and opportunity for this picture to be corrected, and very few Millers ran in Europe thereafter: only the Eldridge and Gwenda Stewart ("Derby") ones, used almost exclusively for record runs at Brooklands, and the Leon Duray stable for a short (but impressive) visit at Monza in '29 - afterwards, those cars literally rotted away in a Molsheim garage. Duray reappeared with his rear-drive three years later, but by then this car had a four-cylinder dirt track engine - a fine mill indeed, but unsuited for the highspeed Monza circuit. Zborowski's car had long been shipped to the antipodes by now, and wasn't really up to date anyway, so that was that. Europe simply never got to know the Millers in all their glory!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 28 July 2014 - 19:15.


#6 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 21:07

Michael - how much inspiration did Bugatti draw from the Miller engines (and cars) that he had access to? I have seen Hugh Conway, the Bugatti 'authority' claim that he more or less copied the engines. I haven't done any research on this myself , you must have a good handle on the story?

 

Peter



#7 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 06:20

Another question: Miller's first winning engine at Indy in 1922 appeared to have very strong Peugeot/Ballot influence with its twin OHC, four valves per cylinder configuration. I understand (via Borgeson) that this engine came about mainly at the insistence of Tommy Milton, and that it was a fair while before Miller/Offenhauser again used four valves per cylinder. Was Miller therefore perhaps 'railroaded' into copying the Peugeot/Ballot configuration against his better judgement, or is this too simplistic an assessment?

#8 Roger Clark

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 15:45

Another question: Miller's first winning engine at Indy in 1922 appeared to have very strong Peugeot/Ballot influence with its twin OHC, four valves per cylinder configuration. I understand (via Borgeson) that this engine came about mainly at the insistence of Tommy Milton, and that it was a fair while before Miller/Offenhauser again used four valves per cylinder. Was Miller therefore perhaps 'railroaded' into copying the Peugeot/Ballot configuration against his better judgement, or is this too simplistic an assessment?

Mark Dees, in The Miller Dynasty says of the 183: "Milton needed an immediate winner, and the easiest way to do it seemed to be to build a much-improved straight eight Ballot"., and later "The 183 used a four valve chamber; subsequent Miller engines were either so small that four valves were impractical or built down to a price , as in the case of the marine engines! and thus only used two valves".

And of the 122: "the 183's 4-valve pent-roof combustion chamber was replaced by a 2-valve hemispherical chamber. Aparently it was felt that two valves of 1.310 in. head diameter on 1.125 in. throats gave enough breathing and that it would be difficult to fit four valve spring and cup assemblies of adequate size within the combustion chamber dictated by the small cylinder bore of the new engine".

At the same time, of course, European designers, led by Fiat, were also breaking away from the four-valve example of Henry.

#9 Michael Ferner

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 16:41

To Peter: I can't claim to be an expert on Bugattis, but Mark Dees, perhaps (at least partly) influenced by Conway, stated in "The Miller Dynasty" that "the spark plug cups and valve gear of the Type 51 and 55 Bugattis will interchange with that of a late 91 (Miller)", so yes, "more or less copied the engines" sounds about right. Dees goes on to lament the fact that "Bugatti didn't follow Miller's lead on front end design" in his 4wd car, and else EB appears to have stuck to his own, rather conservative chassis principles. To be frank, the front-drive design didn't promise to be of much use in road racing, and the Miller rear-drives were pretty conservative, too, so there wasn't much to be learned anyway.

To Tim: in 1922, a 4-valve DO engine was no longer "Peugeot/Ballot" influence, it was pretty much state of the art, if not ubiquitous. Miller did have access to several Peugeots (EX3, EX4 and EX5 that we know of for sure) and an S-type Delage during 1915/'16, the time he branched out into the engine manufacturing business, and I'm sure he instantly realized the advantages of that basic configuration. If you've followed the other thread where John Glenn Printz and I discussed the early Miller business (and I'm sure you did), you will know that there are still several mysteries that are nut fully resolved, and maybe never will, but it is my contention that Miller first built a 4V-DO engine that was a very close Peugeot copy for Bob Burman, which didn't perform very well, after which he resorted to a simpler 4V-SO with a lot of Peugeot "DNA", still. After the war, during which Miller had designed and built a 2V-SO aircraft engine, he returned to the DOHC layout and never looked back, except for an unsuccessful "budget" racing head for the Model A Ford in the very early thirties. None of those post-WW1 engines bore any remarkable similarities with the Peugeot, except for that very basic layout, so I don't think one can talk about Peugeot/Ballot influence here.

Tommy Milton's influence in this first straight 8 Miller has, I believe, been overstated over time, not least due to the fact that he was an eager interviewee for Griff Borgeson in the gestation of the latter's "Golden Age of the American Racing Car". I'm sure he did have his say on several aspects of the engine, most notably the valve action, as Miller was always fond of listening to experienced racing mechanics, and taking on even their weirdest ideas - well, there's your Peugeot influence, after all :D. Anyway, in his later days Milton always seemed to have an axe to grind, and his famous sentence "I made Harry Miller" is simply rubbish.

To get back to the point, we can see that Harry Miller had always prefered the 4-valve configuration in his performance engines up to that point, so there's no reason to assume that he was "railroaded" or persuaded into doing that. Why, then, the 2-valve '122' and '91' engines? Well, it seems it was just a matter of size and space! With a bore of 2 11/32 inches and 2 3/16 inches, respectively, it was apparently impossible (or too difficult) to fit four valve spring and cup assemblies of adequat size into the head. It is true that it took almost ten years for Miller to revert to the 4-valve layout, but then he did not design any new competition engines during that time! Early dirt track 4-cylinders were of the 2-valve layout simply because they were developments of a budget marine engine. True, that one was used in boat racing, so it was sort of a competition engine, but it was more or less a byproduct of a line of much larger, and non-competitive marine engines.

#10 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 17:08

Many thanks chaps, and especially Michael for his (as always) excellent analysis. I must go back and re-read that earlier thread.

#11 arttidesco

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 17:38

".... road racing was deader than dead across the pond, and even on a track like Monza the Millers suffered from inferior handling, because they only needed to go round in perfect circles in the US."
 

 

Sorry I can't add anything to the debate on Chapman and Miller, but without wishing to go to far into the boondocks apart from Langhorne how many other 'perfect circle' tracks have there been ?



#12 Collombin

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 18:14

The Playa del Rey board track was. I think one of the other board tracks might have been too, but not sure.

#13 PeterElleray

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 21:04

To Peter: I can't claim to be an expert on Bugattis, but Mark Dees, perhaps (at least partly) influenced by Conway, stated in "The Miller Dynasty" that "the spark plug cups and valve gear of the Type 51 and 55 Bugattis will interchange with that of a late 91 (Miller)", so yes, "more or less copied the engines" sounds about right. Dees goes on to lament the fact that "Bugatti didn't follow Miller's lead on front end design" in his 4wd car, and else EB appears to have stuck to his own, rather conservative chassis principles. To be frank, the front-drive design didn't promise to be of much use in road racing, and the Miller rear-drives were pretty conservative, too, so there wasn't much to be learned anyway.

Michael  - thanks for your answer, do we know how Bugatti 'acquired' (Hugh Conway's phrase in 'The Grand Prix Car' i think) the Miller engines? My interest aroused, i am now off to re read the relevant section of 'Golden Age'. I wish i had purchased Dees when it was released, cheapest i can find at the moment around £187...

 

It would be interesting to check if the cylinder centres are the same in the two engines, i will look into that.

 

peter



#14 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 22:49

The Millers were swapped for three Bugatti road cars which George Stewart took back to America - and presumably sold at a handsome profit.

 

Rather than shelling out large amounts of money, 'Miller Dynasty' can be consulted for the cost of an inter-library loan via your local library. The British Library's national collection has a copy. :) You'll only be allowed to keep it for three weeks though: the BL are very strict and don't allow renewals under any circumstances.



#15 Tim Murray

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 05:09

More info on Duray/Stewart and the Bugattis in this earlier thread:

http://forums.autosp...in-france-1929/

#16 Henri Greuter

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:54

The Millers were swapped for three Bugatti road cars which George Stewart took back to America - and presumably sold at a handsome profit.

 

Rather than shelling out large amounts of money, 'Miller Dynasty' can be consulted for the cost of an inter-library loan via your local library. The British Library's national collection has a copy. :) You'll only be allowed to keep it for three weeks though: the BL are very strict and don't allow renewals under any circumstances.

 

 

 

Ah... the Miller Dynasty....

 

 

I was a bid more than a kid (1983) when I saw one of those in a Dutch specialists bookshop offered for 180 Dutch guilders which at that time was a very substantial amount of money for a book.

But I liked it so much that I eventually bought it after all despite regretting the money loss  while I could have done so much else with such an amount of money.

 

Started reading during Summer Holiday and soon enough I realized that I had bought one of the best ever books on a car brand ever produced. Never regretted buying it from then anymore. I have had so much pleasur in reading that book and I learned so much from it.

At Indy 1988 I found out there was an Update/Insert sold about that book which I instantly bought too.

The reprint, thoug I wondered if I really needed it, I couldn't live without it when thinking it over. So I have that one in the Library while the first edition is in my living room..

 

No doubt that there will be errors left and differences etc as well as well as other points for critisizm. But for me it remains one of the 10 essential books about US open wheel racing.

 

It is what made me an admirer of the work of Harry Miller and my appreciation for him. Many European race fans will be a fan of European brands of race cars. But to me: I rate Miller among my favourite `marques`.

 

 

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 30 July 2014 - 07:58.


#17 Michael Ferner

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:54

Yes, I can't but fully endorse Henri's statement: The Miller Dynasty is one of a kind, a once-in-a-lifetime book, and not to be missed at any price! I found out about it a dozen years or so ago when I saw it in the library of the von Trips museum at Horrem, and instantly knew that I had to have it. Luckily, right then they were selling off the last few copies of the second edition, and I ordered it right away. I have no idea what I paid for it, and I don't think it ever mattered.

It's a celebration of all things Miller, and of the people who were involved with the marque, with lots of great pictures, well written and very informative. It pains me to say that some of the text is no longer up to date, but the main text of the book was written more than thirty years ago, at a time when research into American racing history was very much in its infancy, so that is to be expected, par for the course. But it still remains the one authorative and complete history of Harry A. Miller and his cars, boats and aeroplanes. A Must Read!!!

Re: "perfect circles", sorry, bad wording on my part. Of course, most American ovals are not perfect circles!

#18 PeterElleray

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:16

The Millers were swapped for three Bugatti road cars which George Stewart took back to America - and presumably sold at a handsome profit.

 

Rather than shelling out large amounts of money, 'Miller Dynasty' can be consulted for the cost of an inter-library loan via your local library. The British Library's national collection has a copy. :) You'll only be allowed to keep it for three weeks though: the BL are very strict and don't allow renewals under any circumstances.

Hi - thanks for the info , i will look into the library option, although i feel an inevitable purchase looming here...

 

Peter



#19 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:40

Hi - thanks for the info , i will look into the library option, although i feel an inevitable purchase looming here...

 

Peter

I can endorse Henri's and Michael's comments. It's an extraordinary book - if you buy one make sure you're getting the second edition though (published by Hippodrome - the first was by AS Barnes). But the expenditure of a fiver or so will at least show you what you're getting for your money! It's on my long list of 'when I can afford it' books, but keeps getting shunted down thanks to various new titles. I'm currently trying to work out whether I can afford not to get get Simon Moore's forthcoming magnum opus ...



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#20 arttidesco

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 13:44


Re: "perfect circles", sorry, bad wording on my part. Of course, most American ovals are not perfect circles!

 

Thought you might be checking to see if any of us were awake :smoking:



#21 fredeuce

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 22:50

I can endorse Henri's and Michael's comments. It's an extraordinary book - if you buy one make sure you're getting the second edition though (published by Hippodrome - the first was by AS Barnes). But the expenditure of a fiver or so will at least show you what you're getting for your money! It's on my long list of 'when I can afford it' books, but keeps getting shunted down thanks to various new titles. I'm currently trying to work out whether I can afford not to get get Simon Moore's forthcoming magnum opus ...


I likewise endorse the various comments about "The Miller Dynasty" as a worthwhile purchase. I have had mine (2nd ed.) for about 17 years now . I had no regrets then and no regrets now. A magnificent piece of work.