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If Mark Webber had stayed on another year with Red Bull


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#1 Henri Greuter

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 10:55

Can't help but thinking what would have happened if Mark had stayed on with Red Bull for another year.

Would he have been able to topple Vettel as well like his fellow countryman is doing right now?

Or was Mark already too much `destroyed` by Vettel and still remain behind the German?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

Henri

 

 

 



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#2 Imateria

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 10:57

I think he would have done well, no blown diffuser of any description to deal with, but not as well as Ricciardo is currently doing.



#3 ensign14

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:06

He would have been closer but still behind.  Webber's biggest problem is his size.  Immediately he loses out on weight, balance and even aerodynamics to an unknown degree.  I've said before it's ridiculous that the sport hasn't legislated to make sure that you can be an F1 driver without being a jockey.



#4 fZero

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:07

I think the question should be what if Porsche had their WEC entry ready for last year and Webber left a year earlier, would Ricciardo have won the WDC? Very possible since he had what Webber never had, the support of the team.



#5 Jon83

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:08

I think it was over for him in F1 and he was right to move on.Knowing his luck, he'd have had the kind of terrible luck Vettel has been having.



#6 Ali_G

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:08

He would have been closer but still behind.  Webber's biggest problem is his size.  Immediately he loses out on weight, balance and even aerodynamics to an unknown degree.  I've said before it's ridiculous that the sport hasn't legislated to make sure that you can be an F1 driver without being a jockey.

 

They've done so for overall weight.

 

You want to see cars having a minimum centre of gravity along with a minimum height of a persons head coming out of the cockpit ?

 

 

Put this against CART rules where the weight of the driver was not taken into account with the overall weight of the car.  It was testament to Paul Tracey's abilities that he won races at all considering his weight.



#7 Jon83

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:08

I think the question should be what if Porsche had their WEC entry ready for last year and Webber left a year earlier, would Ricciardo have won the WDC? Very possible since he had what Webber never had, the support of the team.

 

He might not have been given the seat.



#8 Thomas99

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:09

He'd be closer than he was in 2013 but he wouldn't be doing what Ricciardo is doing.

 

Its funny that for all the blaming of the cars being different the true class drivers are still performing as well as ever.



#9 HoldenRT

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:13

No idea to be honest but hard to believe that it could be as good as Ricciardo is doing.



#10 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:13

Ricciardo is a product of the Red Bull driver scheme, a protege of Dr Marko's, so his car is probably getting more attention / support than would be the case of Mark was still driving....In other words. I somehow doubt that Vettel would be having all the technical issues he's had if Mark was still in the team.  



#11 jannyg

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:18

If Webber stayed on it would be the same old story.

 

Webber hasn't got a patch on Ricciardo, if Ricciardo continues in this vein he would have topped anything Webber had individually done in 7 years for RB imo. 

 

For me Ricciardo is a revelation, I haven't been this impressed with a driver since I saw Hamilton in 07' and Vettz emerge in 08'. 



#12 Disgrace

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:21

I believe Ricciardo would have taken the seat regardless of Webber's wishes. Like Schumacher (at Ferrari) and Coulthard, Webber was allowed to announce his retirement before the replacement confirmation was in the public domain, but behind the scenes the decision would have been already made and known to all parties. This is the option Barrichello sadly declined at Williams.



#13 Mauseri

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:23

I think he would have done well, no blown diffuser of any description to deal with, but not as well as Ricciardo is currently doing.

Certainly would not have as good luck as which Daniel enjoyed again in Hungary (SC sending him ahead of Vettel and the top-4).


Edited by Mauseri, 31 July 2014 - 11:24.


#14 krapmeister

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:23

I believe Ricciardo would have taken the seat regardless of Webber's wishes. Like Schumacher (at Ferrari) and Coulthard, Webber was allowed to announce his retirement before the replacement confirmation was in the public domain, but behind the scenes the decision would have been already made and known to all parties. This is the option Barrichello sadly declined at Williams.


IIRC Coulthard wasn't actually allowed to announce his retirement - Marko let everyone know for him.

FWIW I think Mark's time in F1 was done - he didn't really enjoy the driving to deltas etc etc of the last few years anyway, so I doubt he'd enjoy what he'd have to be doing behind the wheel this year either. And his starts wouldn't have gotten any better...

Edited by krapmeister, 31 July 2014 - 11:27.


#15 goingthedistance

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:24

Ricciardo is a product of the Red Bull driver scheme, a protege of Dr Marko's, so his car is probably getting more attention / support than would be the case of Mark was still driving....In other words. I somehow doubt that Vettel would be having all the technical issues he's had if Mark was still in the team.


Have you ever seen Marko on Dan's side of the garage? Did you notice that Marko did a bolt and was not in the team photo in Hungary?

Vettel is Marko's man. It is thus and it has always been thus.

Dan has the exact same group of guys on his side of the garage that Mark did. He's just doing a better job.

#16 Thomas99

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:27

Have you ever seen Marko on Dan's side of the garage? Did you notice that Marko did a bolt and was not in the team photo in Hungary?

Vettel is Marko's man. It is thus and it has always been thus.

Dan has the exact same group of guys on his side of the garage that Mark did. He's just doing a better job.

I also noticed Marko rushed up to congratulate Christian Horner after Seb got p2 at Hungary. Maybe the camera just shows him more when Vettel does well.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he enjoys Ricciardo going well far more than he did with Mark Webber who pretty much hated eachother. But I'll be very surprised to hear the day Marko announces Daniel's superiority over Vettel.

 

I have no doubt Marko is trying to retain Vettel's services and because of that is being super nice to him. He knows the more Daniel beats Seb the more reason Seb has to leave.


Edited by Thomas99, 31 July 2014 - 11:29.


#17 goingthedistance

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:39

I also noticed Marko rushed up to congratulate Christian Horner after Seb got p2 at Hungary. Maybe the camera just shows him more when Vettel does well.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he enjoys Ricciardo going well far more than he did with Mark Webber who pretty much hated eachother. But I'll be very surprised to hear the day Marko announces Daniel's superiority over Vettel.
 
I have no doubt Marko is trying to retain Vettel's services and because of that is being super nice to him. He knows the more Daniel beats Seb the more reason Seb has to leave.


The most positive thing I've heard out of Marko's mouth about Daniel is that he's been "surprised" by his level of performance and that he has exceeded expectations. That's faint praise IMO. Apart from that it's been lots of statements minimising Dan's achievements and claiming Vettel has been hampered by the car not being perfect for him.

And I have seriously NEVER seen him on Dan's side of the garage, and I watch every damned session.

It's rather mind boggling given he is a product of the RBR program. But I think people tend to underestimate the Vettel-Marko connection, he's been trackside with him since Seb was 13. It's a near paternal relationship.

I'm not convinced Dan enjoys any particular advantage over Mark bar lacking the antagonistic Marko relationship, assuming Mark had the technical parity he claimed he did.

#18 Thomas99

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:45

Dan seems to get on well with Horner and Newey a bit better than Mark was. I think Mark always got on well with Newey but his relationship with Horner was non existent. Horner preaches Daniel's praises as loudly as he can whenever I hear him. Horner has even sort of started to shut up about Vettel.

 

I still don't know what Marko actually does at Red Bull apart from hover at Vettel's garage. I have no doubt he has political influence, which he could use to push development towards Seb but on a day to day running he seems to mostly be there for moral support.


Edited by Thomas99, 31 July 2014 - 11:46.


#19 noikeee

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:48

He would have been closer but still behind.  Webber's biggest problem is his size.  Immediately he loses out on weight, balance and even aerodynamics to an unknown degree.  I've said before it's ridiculous that the sport hasn't legislated to make sure that you can be an F1 driver without being a jockey.

 

I'm thinking the same (the part in bold - closer but still behind). I think Webber would have an additional problem over his weight/height: his age. He's still a decent driver, but I'm sure he's past his peak by now.



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#20 boldhakka

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:56

If Webber stayed on it would be the same old story.

 

Webber hasn't got a patch on Ricciardo, if Ricciardo continues in this vein he would have topped anything Webber had individually done in 7 years for RB imo. 

 

For me Ricciardo is a revelation, I haven't been this impressed with a driver since I saw Hamilton in 07' and Vettz emerge in 08'. 

 

Indeed. He isn't getting enough credit just yet. But he will. Oh he will. 



#21 Jon83

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:06

Indeed. He isn't getting enough credit just yet. But he will. Oh he will. 

 

I think he is getting plenty of credit. I'd say many would agree that he has been the best driver so far this season.



#22 SPBHM

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:13

maybe he would look more like 2010 but, I think Ricciardo is better than him at the moment, Webber is 38 years old, he is not getting any faster, if you look last year at the amount of race wins or poles he had compared to Vettel... I'm not saying Ricciard would have beaten Vettel with the old car, but I think he would manage to win a few races.



#23 RedRabbit

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:18

Dan seems to get on well with Horner and Newey a bit better than Mark was. I think Mark always got on well with Newey but his relationship with Horner was non existent. Horner preaches Daniel's praises as loudly as he can whenever I hear him. Horner has even sort of started to shut up about Vettel.

 

I still don't know what Marko actually does at Red Bull apart from hover at Vettel's garage. I have no doubt he has political influence, which he could use to push development towards Seb but on a day to day running he seems to mostly be there for moral support.

 

That seems weird seeing as they own a GP3 team together - MW Arden.



#24 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:37

Have you ever seen Marko on Dan's side of the garage? Did you notice that Marko did a bolt and was not in the team photo in Hungary?
 

No...but I never see every GP session anyway. I watch on BBC [don't have Sky] and most qualifying sessions and races are recorded highlights.



#25 aray

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:37

question should be what if  Ricciardo promoted to RB back in 2011 as rumored.



#26 Thomas99

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:38

question should be what if  Ricciardo promoted to RB back in 2011 as rumored.

Link to these rumors?



#27 goingthedistance

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:39

question should be what if  Ricciardo promoted to RB back in 2011 as rumored.


I have never heard this rumour, do you have a source?

#28 David1976

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:43

I think Webber would have been beaten by Vettel this year had he stayed for another year.  He may have been closer, not not that close.

 

Unlike some articles that suggest other F1 teams were enquiring after Webber I personally doubt that.  As far as I can see it the top teams have never expressed huge interest in signing him.  Red Bull were a midfield team when they took him.   And don't misunderstand me.  I think Webber is a top bloke and racer.  Just never an elite F1 driver.

 

To me it is increasingly looking like Riciardo is the real deal and that Vettel isn't as good as was thought to be.  If only Ricciardo was in a Red Bull two or three years earlier...



#29 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:46

I also think the car and team environment favoured Seb the longer they were together and that Webber would have been more suited to the unglued cars this year. Seb had something special with the blown diffuser era V8 cars, the planted rear when applying the throttle suited his style it seems. The cars this year are the polar opposite in behaviour and I imagine a very different throttle application technique is required to be fast. Everything from less downforce, no throttle blowing, increased weight and more torque means that a different approach is required and it seems D Ricc is well suited to it. I imagine Mark would have been closer to Seb in these conditions but I can't see him out performing Seb like D Ricc is who has proven this year he's got the lot, qual pace, race pace and his racecraft for his two wins have been flawless and crucially, he performs under pressure and seizes opportunities. He's the total package.



#30 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:57

I don't think Webber's as good as Ricciardo. But the loss of exhaust blown diffusers and other trickery probably would have helped Webber a bit, he never seemed to use that potential in the same way Vettel did. But he'd still be driving a car on Pirellis and for whatever reason he didn't seem to have the same speed vs Vettel on Pirellis that he did on Bridgestones.



#31 ensign14

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 13:03

They've done so for overall weight.

 

You want to see cars having a minimum centre of gravity along with a minimum height of a persons head coming out of the cockpit ?

 

Minimum cockpit size and weights within it to equalize.  Wouldn't be difficult.



#32 andrewr

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 13:09

We'll never know, but as much as I would have liked to see Webber kick Vettel's arse, I don't think he had the hang of making the tyres last like Ricciardo does, and that has certainly been something that has helped Ricciardo get results this year.



#33 Xeriks

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 13:12

He would have done well, but not as well as Ricciardo has done.

 

He is a special driver, and is already among the top tier drivers.



#34 Atreiu

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 14:14

He would most likely have had a seemingly disappointing season than go out with a bang or strong impression.

#35 grichka

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 14:42

I think he would be doing no better then last year. Don't forget he was used to the same amount of downforce as was Vettel. No proof he would love loosely grip cars.


Edited by grichka, 31 July 2014 - 14:44.


#36 andrewr

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 15:08

I think he would be doing no better then last year. Don't forget he was used to the same amount of downforce as was Vettel. No proof he would love loosely grip cars.

 

You might be right, but that argument makes no sense. It's obvious that Vettel was more at home with the same amount of downforce. 



#37 HamiltonFanboy

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 15:20

He would of looked good at Barcelona, Monaco, Silverstone etc and then would of done nothing for the rest of the year. He might of beat Vettel a few times in quali but Mark would never get near him over a normal season because he is just to inconsistent. He was great at the classic tracks but unable to adapt to new circuits and new technology.



#38 andrewr

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 15:36

He would of looked good at Barcelona, Monaco, Silverstone etc and then would of done nothing for the rest of the year. He might of beat Vettel a few times in quali but Mark would never get near him over a normal season because he is just to inconsistent. He was great at the classic tracks but unable to adapt to new circuits and new technology.

 

Probably true, but he came close in 2010, and the lack of EBD could have made a difference, (And I can't control my inner grammar Nazi, so I'm going to penalise you for incorrectly writing "would have" and "might have") :)



#39 George Costanza

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 15:46

Call me crazy, but I think Mark would have beaten him in these cars.



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#40 f1fan1998

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 15:53

The stark reality is that Ricciardo is smashing Vettel and Vettel smashed Webber last year. Let's recall, that Vettel won 13 races last and 9 on the bounce. Last year's Red Bull was a brilliant car and Webber won none?!! Ricciardo is in an average car and has won twice already this season. What else do you need to think about?

 

No doubt that Webber was spent last year, he had no energy left for it, but this year would be no different. I have said numerous times that Ricciardo is the real deal. In years to come we will look back at his gritty drives and great personality and laugh how we once compared him with Webber. 

 

Not only that, but Webber wasn't all that loved by his garage. That makes a big difference. 



#41 andrewr

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:01

The stark reality is that Ricciardo is smashing Vettel and Vettel smashed Webber last year. Let's recall, that Vettel won 13 races last and 9 on the bounce. Last year's Red Bull was a brilliant car and Webber won none?!! Ricciardo is in an average car and has won twice already this season. What else do you need to think about?

 

No doubt that Webber was spent last year, he had no energy left for it, but this year would be no different. I have said numerous times that Ricciardo is the real deal. In years to come we will look back at his gritty drives and great personality and laugh how we once compared him with Webber. 

 

Not only that, but Webber wasn't all that loved by his garage. That makes a big difference. 

 

Really? That's news to me.



#42 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:03

Id not heard of that one, but I could see it happening. As Vettel wins more and more it underlines what Webber is not doing. And if he's too gruff or outspoken, it can quickly deteriorate.

 

But I think di Resta is still the champion of that particular brand of charm.



#43 garagetinkerer

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:10

If the car was as reliable for him as it is for Ricciardo, then very possibly. However, Webber's biggest problem was not EBD, not reliability, but that he was battling the team in his head, than working with them.

 

The question that most don't ask now is, will Vettel be trailing Ricciardo if his car hadn't had all those bits failing ever so often that is happening right now. Vettel's already used up 4th of almost everything, and i think this was 3rd GP on 4th PU. Soon enough, he'll be getting penalties and it is none of his fault really. For what it is worth, Ricciardo has made most of his opportunities, and shows a presence of mind, which is good.

 

This is weird as new regulations were supposed to put more emphasis on driver, than car. For a decade now, every time something was changed to make it more about driver, it has sometimes been slightly more about car, or very much about car, like now.



#44 garagetinkerer

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:11

Id not heard of that one, but I could see it happening. As Vettel wins more and more it underlines what Webber is not doing. And if he's too gruff or outspoken, it can quickly deteriorate.

 

But I think di Resta is still the champion of that particular brand of charm.

I'd bet that it wasn't the lack of winning :p more than chatter, about how he was fighting to make space for himself and so on.



#45 Jimisgod

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:37

Webber was a Rubens to Vettel's Schumacher. Now Vettel is being beaten by Dan.

Put them (DR and MW) alongside each other and it may be a Fisichella to Alonso battle. If Webber was alongside Vettel, Seb would have more podiums and Webber might have one or two. Can't see any wins

#46 HoldenRT

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:42

Webber very much had a chip on his shoulder about the team, I remember reading something on James Allen's blog after his first ever win in Nurburgring, where it seemed like the team was acting like someone had died (behind the scenes) instead of being over the mood or ecstatic.

 

Whether or not you think Webber was worrying about nothing or had genuine concerns is open to interpretation.  But it's over now, it's the past, it's history.

 

With Dan, he has a likable personality, doesn't whinge about anything (so far) and his driving has done the talking.  From the first practice session in Melbourne, the wet qualifying, through every race until now.  The only faults (being harsh) are a poor middle stint in Sepang (before the pit problem), and an average Austrian race.  Other than that, he's been very solid in pretty much every session or race.  Regardless of wins or not.  His racecraft especially has been brilliant.  Beyond anything Webber ever did (Webber was good at times too) but especially given how early it is in his career.  Even Seb has some problems in his early RBR days until he ironed them out in the last few years.  Ricciardo so far has been solid or brilliant depending on the race, but I don't think that says bad things about Webber necessarily.  Different stages of their career, and there are a lot of drivers haven't been as good as Ricciardo this season, because it's been a surprise to see how good he can be so far.  The question is whether he can maintain it.  Because it's a high level trying to maintain it but he has the right attitude and there's every chance he could become even stronger.  He has the right attitude of being competitive but not taking it too seriously.  Horner especially can't stop raving about how relaxed he is.

 

To the very least he has justified his place in the team, and regardless of what you think of Marko.. he seems to be well liked within the team.  He's a hard person to dislike.  How long will it take until something bad happens and he has to face an awkward moment?  Rosberg and Hamilton were 'friends' but 6 or 7 races later, there is a huge tension.  It's hard to be nice or 'friends' in such a competitive environment.  It's nice to be a 'gentlemen racer' but in the end, it's about being the best and about winning.  It's not about trying to win a popularity vote, it's about driving cars as fast as possible and finishing ahead of everyone else.



#47 Asterion

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:48

People would still argue whether or not Vettel is the best driver on the grid. Thanks to Ric, we've moved past this discussion, as Vettel is not even the best RBR driver, let alone the best on the grid.


Edited by Asterion, 31 July 2014 - 16:50.


#48 bourbon

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:54

The stark reality is that Ricciardo is smashing Vettel and Vettel smashed Webber last year. Let's recall, that Vettel won 13 races last and 9 on the bounce. Last year's Red Bull was a brilliant car and Webber won none?!! Ricciardo is in an average car and has won twice already this season. What else do you need to think about?

 

So what you are saying is that Mark Webber is not capable of beating two Mercedes down on power or out of the race, leading from the front in clean air to the flag as best of the rest and being in the top 4 in qualifying, including splitting the leaders if they screw up and beating his teammate if Seb was struggling with the car.  Can we remember if Mark ever did those things?  Even at the advanced old age of 32 to 36? 

 

I am a well known Anti Webber dude, and defending him gets me no where because people think I am just doing so to benefit Seb.  In addition, I have no desire whatsoever to defend the guy as he was a total bugger the whole 5 years as Seb's teammate.  So I will not answer the above questions.  I will leave it to you to work out.

 

 

People would still argue whether or not Vettel is the best driver on the grid. Thanks to Ric, we've moved past this discussion, as Vettel is not even the best RBR driver, let alone the best on the grid.

 

Now we are getting to the root of the true purpose of some of the posters here.  :D


Edited by bourbon, 31 July 2014 - 16:59.


#49 HoldenRT

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 16:57

Comparing Webber to Ricciardo to Vettel doesn't work.  F1 just doesn't work that way.  Just because Kimi is being beaten by Alonso now in Ferrari 2014 doesn't mean he would be beaten in McLaren 2005 or Ferrari 2007.  There are too many factors.  If Lewis would drive Ferrari 2014 maybe Alonso would beat him, but if Alonso would drive Mercedes 2014, maybe Lewis would beat him.  Too many factors.



#50 George Costanza

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 17:02

Webber was a Rubens to Vettel's Schumacher. Now Vettel is being beaten by Dan.

Put them (DR and MW) alongside each other and it may be a Fisichella to Alonso battle. If Webber was alongside Vettel, Seb would have more podiums and Webber might have one or two. Can't see any wins

 

Mark was not "Rubens" if he won in 2010.

Vettel is no Schumacher. Schumacher would have never been beaten in his prime by his teammate. I know people will say "He was beaten by Rosberg." But 2010 Schumacher was certaintly not 2000 Schumacher.


Edited by George Costanza, 31 July 2014 - 17:05.