I agree. Certainly there were those overhyping him, but there were and are also others saying he was a total chump and it was all down to the car. The truth, inevitably, lies somewhere in-between and that's only as far as one can separate car and driver anyway.The point being that no one rates Button, Raikkonen or Hakkinen as among the top 4 or 5 or probably even top 10 of all time. But this time last year people were saying Vettel was already in that class and will "only get better". That proved a very premature prediction. However, yes, I agree with your overall point - he will be forgiven one bad year is he bounces back in 2015, so I'm very curious to see whether he does.
If Mark Webber had stayed on another year with Red Bull
#101
Posted 26 August 2014 - 16:59
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#102
Posted 26 August 2014 - 17:08
Almost Irvine... from 6, 5, 3 (with clearly not the best car in all those three situations). So what? Is he better than Senna? No, Irvine remains still only Irvine.
And yes, reliability was way worse in 1980. But it also prevented Prost from having a stellar race for example in France 1980.
Ha! The Ferrari was clearly equal or better than the Mclaren in 1999, and Irvine was gifted the 3rd win by Salo moving over.
Reliability was always far worse in the day and worse teams finished higher - could an Onyx possibly finish 3rd today? Dallara? Larrouse? If you finished without an issue, you finished pretty high.
#103
Posted 26 August 2014 - 18:29
The point being that no one rates Button, Raikkonen or Hakkinen as among the top 4 or 5 or probably even top 10 of all time. But this time last year people were saying Vettel was already in that class and will "only get better". That proved a very premature prediction. However, yes, I agree with your overall point - he will be forgiven one bad year is he bounces back in 2015, so I'm very curious to see whether he does.
It wasn't "people" who were saying it - it was paddock insiders and the BBC's gathering of respected F1 retirees rating Vettel top 8 of all time.
How very gracious of fans to forgive Vettel one bad year after 7 stellar ones or Hamilton after his 4 great ones or Alonso after 6 awesome ones or Kimi after a decade of great racing. On every occassion, I take a defensive posture because that is the nature of competition. Fans know this, but imo, are so vengeful as a result of minor cases of butt hurt they can't see past their own blurred vision.
I'm afraid Webber got hit hard by that because Vettel kept winning. Fans refused to take any circumstances into consideration, including his position in the WDC and just decided he was awful based on his competition with 1 driver. Absolutely insane, imo.
#104
Posted 26 August 2014 - 22:22
Greatness is measured by consistency over many seasons.
Alonso has proved that. Schumacher did over 3 decades. Prost did...Senna did etc.
DR has over.....12 races. Big difference.
What if the car doesnt suit him next year and the roles are reversed? Will he have the mettle to bounce back? Will he show the same 'greatness'?
#105
Posted 26 August 2014 - 22:55
I think the question should be what if Porsche had their WEC entry ready for last year and Webber left a year earlier, would Ricciardo have won the WDC? Very possible since he had what Webber never had, the support of the team.
So if DR was in RB in 2013.....Webber didn't win at all last year and from Spa onwards, Vettel won 9 on the trot. Assuming DR was winning races as he has this, then Vettel probably wouldn't have won all 9...I assume team orders would have to have come into play to ensure he [Vettel] won the WDC....
#106
Posted 26 August 2014 - 23:39
The only certain thing we would have is some hilariously horrific starts from good grid positions.
That is Webber's legacy. - this coming from a fan since '01. Yea, the Benetton test days.
#107
Posted 26 August 2014 - 23:46
Yeah,his starts got to the farcial stage with excuse after excuse,i think Mark at one stage blamed RB for changing the "parameters" every race.
I still think he would have had a good 2014 season,at least as good as Seb's.
#108
Posted 26 August 2014 - 23:56
Everytime I see a replay of his Sepang 2004 start I get an STD.
God, it was painful.
Edited by OvDrone, 26 August 2014 - 23:56.
#109
Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:00
It wasn't "people" who were saying it - it was paddock insiders and the BBC's gathering of respected F1 retirees rating Vettel top 8 of all time.
How very gracious of fans to forgive Vettel one bad year after 7 stellar ones or Hamilton after his 4 great ones or Alonso after 6 awesome ones or Kimi after a decade of great racing. On every occassion, I take a defensive posture because that is the nature of competition. Fans know this, but imo, are so vengeful as a result of minor cases of butt hurt they can't see past their own blurred vision.
#8 of all time would have to be questioned after what appears to be an inability to remain a "great" driver given a significantly different car. This perception may change if a) Vettel gets on top of Ricciardo for the remainder of the season or b) Ricciardo turns out to be one of the greats himself.
The true greats - Nuvolari, Fangio, Moss, Foyt, Andretti, Prost, Senna . . all proved they could dominate in a variety of machinery.
Edited by gruntguru, 27 August 2014 - 08:01.