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RBR at Assen


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#1 Dan333SP

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:44

There may already be a topic on this, but evidently RBR ran a 2012 RB8 at Assen during a demo day. They had Buemi take a crack at the lap record set by a 2007 champ car (the year they ran the Panoz DP01) and Seb came up about 2.5 seconds short after a few runs. Given that we know a 2012 F1 car should be a bit quicker than a champ car, why did they come up short? Do they run brick tires and extra ride height during these demos? I remember a few F1 cars smashing the champ car record at Laguna, so this was a little surprising.

http://m.gpupdate.ne...mma-racing-day/

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#2 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:01

The DP01 was a quick car. Toyota took the Laguna record but then the Panoz beat the time in the race meeting later that year.

 

But I suspect they can't run proper spec tyres at these sorts of events.



#3 RedRabbit

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:11

From the article : "Our goal is to show everyone what a Formula 1 car can do" - which is clearly not as much as a 2007 Champ car. Lots of variables etc, etc, but if F1 is so clearly the pinnacle of motorsport, running tires a little harder than ideal should still put the car in front on lap time.

 

This is honestly why F1 is losing popularity - it's nothing special anymore. Nothing jaw dropping about it.



#4 HoldenRT

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:28

It's only special if you factor in all the compromises and handicaps it has, in terms of efficiency.  In terms of raw pace, agree.. nothing special.  2004 or 2006 was jaw dropping, or even 2008 despite control tyres.  Since then..



#5 Afterburner

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 13:04

More reason F1 has slid into the position of 'just another racing series' for me.

#6 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 13:40

Because a demo lap didn't go faster than X laptime from Y year?

 

The Toyota 'record' at Laguna was also a PR demo. It was only a record because an F1 car can take it easy and beat most laptimes. And that was only a Toyota.



#7 pingu666

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 13:51

they do have very hard tyres for demo work



#8 HeadFirst

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 15:48

I see no point in comparing race times to demo times with a reserve driver.



#9 Dan333SP

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 16:07

I'm only comparing them because it seems RBR tried to break the record and came up short. I guess testing rules probably prohibit them from slapping on soft tires, which would surely account for the 2.5 seconds and then some, but I think it's interesting nonetheless. It also inspired me to go watch the full 2007 Assen CC race. Great cars and a great circuit. Shame we lost that series.

#10 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 17:30

Vergne also drove the car through the city centre on Friday. With a V8 engine, what difference in sound compared to this year's cars.



#11 crooky369

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 17:47

The Laguna Seca record was broken again in 2012 by Marc Gene in a 2003 Ferrari



No regulations for these guys on the tyres they run etc. Fastest assembled team in the world at the moment?

#12 Dan333SP

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 18:21

Oh man, I will never get tired of that video. When he nails it to start the lap.... Goosebumps. You can tell he isn't at the absolute limit (watch his line through the uphill left hander and the last corner), yet he still set a record. I wonder how much faster the 2004 car would have been with the best tires of that period and MSC in his prime. Sub 1 minute?

#13 Exb

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 19:23

Well at least they didn't set fire to it during this demo...

http://wtf1.co.uk/re...ar-fire-russia/

#14 string158

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 19:25

There may already be a topic on this, but evidently RBR ran a 2012 RB8 at Assen during a demo day. They had Buemi take a crack at the lap record set by a 2007 champ car (the year they ran the Panoz DP01) and Seb came up about 2.5 seconds short after a few runs. Given that we know a 2012 F1 car should be a bit quicker than a champ car, why did they come up short? Do they run brick tires and extra ride height during these demos? I remember a few F1 cars smashing the champ car record at Laguna, so this was a little surprising.

http://m.gpupdate.ne...mma-racing-day/

 

Maybe they were just Assen around...  :clap:



#15 OvDrone

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 23:30

Maybe they were just Assen around...  :clap:

 

Go get your coat!



#16 George Costanza

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 00:32

Oh man, I will never get tired of that video. When he nails it to start the lap.... Goosebumps. You can tell he isn't at the absolute limit (watch his line through the uphill left hander and the last corner), yet he still set a record. I wonder how much faster the 2004 car would have been with the best tires of that period and MSC in his prime. Sub 1 minute?

 

Or Ayrton in 1989 vintage. 1-1.5 second quicker than Schumacher in his prime for sure.


Edited by George Costanza, 05 August 2014 - 00:33.


#17 Madera

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 00:49

Will we never forget this?

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=cBthxGThBkc

 

Those cars were the closest thing to "American F1" that we ever had.

 

The sound was amazing. So much better than the goose fart in a heavy fog that we have to listen to now.

 

Tell me again why F1 doesn't have a race there?



#18 travbrad

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:08

This is honestly why F1 is losing popularity - it's nothing special anymore. Nothing jaw dropping about it.

 

Yep the racing was so exciting back when the cars were extremely fast (2004).   :rolleyes:



#19 Dan333SP

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:41

Or Ayrton in 1989 vintage. 1-1.5 second quicker than Schumacher in his prime for sure.


I've always liked Senna but no one in their right mind would think he could pull 1-1.5 seconds on someone like MSC in identical equipment. Both of them at their peak were extracting maybe 98.5% of the car's absolute potential. You can't go faster than the car/physics allow at their limit, you can just get closer to the limit and I doubt a 1998-2000 era MSC was leaving 1.5 seconds on the table. They'd be covered by fractions of a second, but that's totally off topic.

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#20 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 05:55

I've always liked Senna but no one in their right mind would think he could pull 1-1.5 seconds on someone like MSC in identical equipment. Both of them at their peak were extracting maybe 98.5% of the car's absolute potential. You can't go faster than the car/physics allow at their limit, you can just get closer to the limit and I doubt a 1998-2000 era MSC was leaving 1.5 seconds on the table. They'd be covered by fractions of a second, but that's totally off topic.

 

 

Ayrton Senna outqualified Alain Prost at Monaco by 1,5 seconds .... 



#21 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 11:05

Implying that Prost was having a strangely off-day.



#22 HoldenRT

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:17

The braking zone before the corkscrew is scary at full speed in an F1 car.. :eek:



#23 Dan333SP

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 15:37

Ayrton Senna outqualified Alain Prost at Monaco by 1,5 seconds ....


And MSC has surely out qualified his teammate by over a second in dry conditions a number of times as well. One driver maximizes the car, the other has problems. Happens all the time. Prost wasn't as willing to push the limit of the car that day at that track, but Senna was still operating within the limitations of the vehicle. Surely MSC had some laps that were as close or closer to the absolute potential of the car than Senna's, it just depends. In '96 MSC put a crap Ferrari on pole at Monaco by more than a half second over the dominant Williams and more than a second on his teammate.

#24 garagetinkerer

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 05:16

I have been complaining about slowdown for years now. I was called a dinosaur, and i didn't mind, not will i still. While safety is a concern, but too much slowing down has almost brought the rear end of the grid within grasp of GP2 teams. It is getting silly.

 

_______________________________________________________________________

Or Ayrton in 1989 vintage. 1-1.5 second quicker than Schumacher in his prime for sure.

I cannot recommend enough the book by Christopher Hilton... i don't know where it all started, but the press understates Schumacher's outright speed, and by a fair margin. Brawn specifically noted that Berger and Alesi just weren't up to snuff when they arrived as replacements for Schumacher at Benetton, and old strategies no longer worked.

 

And MSC has surely out qualified his teammate by over a second in dry conditions a number of times as well. One driver maximizes the car, the other has problems. Happens all the time. Prost wasn't as willing to push the limit of the car that day at that track, but Senna was still operating within the limitations of the vehicle. Surely MSC had some laps that were as close or closer to the absolute potential of the car than Senna's, it just depends. In '96 MSC put a crap Ferrari on pole at Monaco by more than a half second over the dominant Williams and more than a second on his teammate.

:up: That is all forgetting all the drama going on behind the scenes at McLaren and with Honda.

 

I've always liked Senna but no one in their right mind would think he could pull 1-1.5 seconds on someone like MSC in identical equipment. Both of them at their peak were extracting maybe 98.5% of the car's absolute potential. You can't go faster than the car/physics allow at their limit, you can just get closer to the limit and I doubt a 1998-2000 era MSC was leaving 1.5 seconds on the table. They'd be covered by fractions of a second, but that's totally off topic.

People always cringe about '94... but when a Ford powered Benetton driven by Schumacher was very difficult to manage for a Senna in a Renault powered Williams, you have to think beyond all the allegations levelled at the team, and look at the driver behind the wheel.


Edited by garagetinkerer, 06 August 2014 - 05:20.


#25 Scotracer

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 19:20

The DP01 was indeed a very fast car. 750BHP with an overboost function to over 800BHP, loads of downforce from its venturi tunnels and slicks.

 

I remember when F1 was 2-3 seconds faster than a Champcar like for like. A 2012 F1 was not that car. 

 

I wonder what a 2010 RBR could do? As Newey said, it probably had more downforce than any F1 car ever, had the bullet-proof Bridgestone tyres...and 605kg.

 

Edit: Let's compare Spanish GP quali times (the fastest times in any of the 3 sessions):

 

2008: 1:20.701

2009:1:20.192

2010: 1:19.995

2011: 1:20.981

2012: 1:21.707

2013: 1:20.718

2014: 1:25.232

 

2010 was the fastest ever at this config of circuit. And lol @ 2014.


Edited by Scotracer, 06 August 2014 - 19:26.


#26 Dan333SP

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 23:50

It's interesting to compare Malaysia over the years, as I'd say its flowing layout with some tight corners is largely similar to Assen. The 2004 Ferrari took pole with a 1:33.0. The 2011 RBR set a 1:34.8, and the 2014 qualifying was rained out but the fastest P3 lap by the Merc was 1:39.3. Point being, I have no point. That 2004 car was really, really quick, though...



#27 DKMoto

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 00:33

Or Ayrton in 1989 vintage. 1-1.5 second quicker than Schumacher in his prime for sure.

 

 

 

 

Plh5wJL.jpg


Edited by DKMoto, 07 August 2014 - 00:34.


#28 George Costanza

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 01:41

I understand it's probably a crazy asserton.... But here's a fact when Ayrton was alive, Michael didn't get any pole positions including in 1992-1993-1994 seasons where it was Benetton having a slightly better package than McLaren-Honda in 1992 and "customer" McLaren-Ford in 1993.

 

Then 1994, when Williams had struggled with the handling, yet Ayrton was quicker than Schumacher by a good margin.    Pure one lap speed, Ayrton would beat Michael more often than not...   


Edited by George Costanza, 07 August 2014 - 01:42.


#29 Afterburner

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 14:29

Because a demo lap didn't go faster than X laptime from Y year?

Hey, I never said it was a good reason. :p

At the same token, though, I don't feel it should've even been a contest.

#30 Kristian

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 14:45

That Laguna Seca video is stunning - thanks for posting! When he goes through the corkscrew I can feel my stomach go all funny just watching it. 

 

I know F1 races there would be pretty terrible as its so narrow, but I would love to see tracks like that on the calendar... 

 

But demo runs now, even in old cars, won't be fast as they need to use flintstone tyres to do them - so don't read too much into it. 



#31 xflow7

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 15:27

Fully aside from demo tires or whatever, I don't think you can compare a lap-time set during a demo day with one set during a race weekend where there will have been several practice sessions spent perfecting set up and a few thousand car-laps worth of rubber put down.