52 replies to this topic

[hollowstar]

I just read this Q&A with Otmar Szafnauer from Force India, and I thought his comments were interesting.

 

He says that: 

 

- The Mercedes engine will be copied by other teams in 2015

- However, the current F1 is not an engine formula as some like to put it: FI, McLaren, and Williams are Merc powered and not winning. 

- Therefore, he thinks the current W05 would be winning even with another engine

 

Q: Is it all about the power unit this year? 
OS: I don’t think so. To win you have to get it all right. Look at Mercedes - I believe that their car would still be good enough to win even with Renault or Ferrari power. They have a good aero package, good mechanical package, they understand the tyres, have good drivers and strategy - they're going to win. Remove the powertrain and stick another one in and they’ll still be competitive. Is it more of an engine formula this year? Maybe a bit more than in the past when the engines were all frozen. But is it a complete engine formula? No way. We have the same engine as Mercedes, so do Williams and McLaren - and they’re not winning.

 

 

Do you agree the W05 would win if powered by a Ferrari or Renault engine? If so, would it still dominate the field so much?  Or would the field be tighter, with more teams sharing wins, à la 2012? 

 

 

Edited by hollowstar, 09 August 2014 - 20:09.

[MikeV1987]

voted option #2

 

so absolutely, they have a very good car.

Edited by MikeV1987, 09 August 2014 - 20:15.

[Jvr]

I took the last option of impossible to say since it is a works package where things are interconnected. Sure the engine power is giving all Merc teams a boost and Merc is still dominant over those that would indicate the car is also very good over competition. But let's remember how difficult the season start was for Renault powered teams that delayed their development program substantially e.g. RB was practically designed again from scratch and the Merc car developmend pace would not have been possible with such an engine.

[george1981]

I voted 'No way. This is BAR, remember?'

The engine and the car have been designed and optimised around each other. None of the other Mercedes teams had this advantage. Also there was a late change to the exhaust manifold which some of the customer teams only found out about later, once they'd finalised their side pod design.

 

Something that isn't being mentioned much is tyres. They're a lot more durable this year, I think that is masking some of Mercedes problems with tyre management.

[hollowstar]

voted option #2

 

so absolutely, they have a very good car.

 

This is also my opinion. If the Merc had a Ferrari engine for example, I think this season would actually look a lot like 2012. With Ricciardo replacing Vettel among title contenders, Alonso and Hamilton still there, and Rosberg in the mix. 

 

Maybe Bernie could ban Merc PUs during the summer break 

[RedRabbit]

I think they would still be the better team but others would be a lot more in the mix. I don't know if it would be like 2012 though, maybe a little more like the first part of 2013 before the tire change. I'm convinced that a big part of the Merc advantage is that they're using the tires much better than any other team. Whether they sorted the tire issues properly or if the tires just happened to come to them, much like they did in 2013 for Red Bull, is another question.

[SPBHM]

I think they would be faster than Ferrari with a Ferrari engine, but slower than Red Bull with a Renault engine, with the same engine as the others I see them capable of fighting for the win, far from dominating, but better than 2013.

Edited by SPBHM, 09 August 2014 - 22:59.

[baddog]

It is the engine that guarantees them to be competitive (look at williams ffs.. that car is rubbish and they are still competitive), but it is the engine integration and extended powertrain combined with a car already top 6 material that makes them dominant.

 

If Redbull had the engine and merc factory powertrain/integration they would be lapping everyone else I suspect. Ferrari would be about where merc are. Everyone else would be back somewhat.

[Ducks]

Yeah they would because of the tires.

[hollowstar]

It is the engine that guarantees them to be competitive (look at williams ffs.. that car is rubbish and they are still competitive), but it is the engine integration and extended powertrain combined with a car already top 6 material that makes them dominant.

 

If Redbull had the engine and merc factory powertrain/integration they would be lapping everyone else I suspect. Ferrari would be about where merc are. Everyone else would be back somewhat.

 

Are you sure the Williams is rubbish? I wouldn't think so. It at least seems a better car than the McLaren... 

[HamiltonFanboy]

They have the best handling car on the grid so why not? There's a reason the Merc dominates even more at aero tracks and its not the engine. The car is exceptional in every aspect and putting that down to just the engine is not right.

[travbrad]

I think RBR would give Mercedes a run for their money this year if they had the same engine.  RBR looks like the only team in the same league though.  If you take the PU/engine out of the equation I think the running order would be something like (gaps indicate a performance gap):

 

Mercedes

RBR

 

Ferrari

 

STR

Williams

 

Force India

Mclaren

Lotus

 

Sauber

Marussia

Caterham

Edited by travbrad, 10 August 2014 - 04:25.

[HoldenRT]

Agree with the poll.

[Jejking]

Agree with the poll.

*sighs theatrically*

[ensign14]

Put the Life W12 in it. I doubt it would win.

[GoldenColt]

Option #2.

 

They have excelled everywhere pace-wise. They were out of reach in Silverstone and Catalunya, just as they were out of reach in Canada (before the issues) and they will be out of reach in Monza and Spa, just as much as in Singapore. Don't get fooled by the Hungary-result either, Rosberg was dominating until the 1st SC.

[MAMBA]

Voted no2

 

The Mercedes team have a very good car but it is really the engine - chassis package that gives them their success. Look at Red Bull. The car is quite likely the same or better aerodynamically but the Renault PU is nowhere near the Merc one. Ferrari had the same advantage as the Mercedes team as they could design a car and PU together. They did not do such a good job as the Mercedes team so their car is not really competitive. The WO5 is a really good car so I will not deny that fact but I doubt it would be as dominating as it is now without the Merc engine.

 

MAMBA

[kosmos]

I feel like RB has the best car (aero), Mercedes and RB with the same engine, I will put my money in RB and Ricciardo.

[Mart280]

It is the engine that guarantees them to be competitive (look at williams ffs.. that car is rubbish and they are still competitive), but it is the engine integration and extended powertrain combined with a car already top 6 material that makes them dominant.
 
If Redbull had the engine and merc factory powertrain/integration they would be lapping everyone else I suspect. Ferrari would be about where merc are. Everyone else would be back somewhat.

Sorry but that is a load of cobblers, Williams have a very good car with or without the Merc engine.

[PlatenGlass]

I might start a poll - would the McLaren be able to beat the Marussias and Caterhams without the Mercedes engine? I think the engine has masked quite how bad that car is.

[payinkind]

I feel like RB has the best car (aero), Mercedes and RB with the same engine, I will put my money in RB and Ricciardo.

 

If so, where was RB in Spain, Malaysia and Silverstone?

Edited by payinkind, 10 August 2014 - 14:31.

[Thomas99]

I think people over state the importance of the engine. The top three cars in the WCC all have different engines

[Szoelloe]

Yeah, they would. Why is that even a question?

[Gorma]

Red Bull would win.

[JensonWDC]

no chance

[Farhannn15]

It would be extremely close between the Mercedes and Red Bull IMO. Whenever at GP weekends the emphasis on a sector is to do with aerodynamics the RB is right there with the Mercedes but I'd still think overall Mercedes would be winning in both WDC and WCC

[Imateria]

It's impossible to say, the car and engine, or at leas the way they run the engine, were designed around each other.

[teejay]

Yeah they would because of the tires.

 

They get special tyres?

[garagetinkerer]

If so, where was RB in Spain, Malaysia and Silverstone?

 

Monaco as well... this horse manure about RBR having best car is just getting way too old really.

 

I think it is also the tyres, which are on the harder side compared to last year after the revision. Mind, the tyres introduced after Silvertsone were hard enough as it is... I think a couple of other teams will come into play if the tyres were to change. However, as it is Mercedes have everything going for them. The car, the PU and the tyres. Take PU out, and you will inconvenience them, but i doubt that it will change much. It will be closer, but Mercedes will still win more than any other team.

 

Edited by garagetinkerer, 11 August 2014 - 03:52.

[Xeriks]

I feel like RB has the best car (aero), Mercedes and RB with the same engine, I will put my money in RB and Ricciardo.

Can't believe people keep spouting this nonsense.

[V8 Fireworks]

They are not as bad as BAR, their engineering is much improved, but certainly they are benefiting GREATLY by Pirelli supplying  harder tyres.  By a HUGE amount.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens if Pirreli decides to go one option softer for both tyres, for all remaining races.   Advantage RBR & Williams? 

[garagetinkerer]

They are not as bad as BAR, their engineering is much improved, but certainly they are benefiting GREATLY by Pirelli supplying  harder tyres.  By a HUGE amount.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens if Pirreli decides to go one option softer for both tyres, for all remaining races.   Advantage RBR & Williams? 

I think if you had tyres from post Silverstone last year (which were harder than earlier last year), things will get closer at the top. Williams definitely are having a problem keeping these in operating range long enough. There are other teams too possibly facing the same problem. Grosjean was hinting at Raikkonen suffering from tyres as well. Surely it would get closer at the top if softer compounds were there. However, this is the formula, and Mercedes are nailing it so far.

[garagetinkerer]

It would be extremely close between the Mercedes and Red Bull IMO. Whenever at GP weekends the emphasis on a sector is to do with aerodynamics the RB is right there with the Mercedes but I'd still think overall Mercedes would be winning in both WDC and WCC

Ahem, if it weren't for the safety cars, botched strategies, RBR would have had no chance in hell of winning at Hungary, which they thought will have had suited them. They won as it is owing to various factors, but the potency of the car. If not at Hungary. i sincerely don't see them winning them much else anywhere.

[MetallurgicalHedonist]

Once before season 2009 started, they changed their originally tailor-made engine almost literally overnight as well and were still quick despite of that. So there is a big chance that it would be the same now.

[AnR]

I agree with the majority and voted #2.

 

Mercededs never figured out the tires last year neither, so Everything fell in Place with tyres and Engine in 2014.

 

Red Bull still have the best car IMO.

[Briz]

2013 constructor points of current Mercedes powered teams:

 

Mercedes 360 - points

McLaren-Mercedes - 122 points

Force India Mercedes - 77 points

Williams Renault - 5 points

 

2014 so far:

 

Mercedes - 393 points

Williams Renault - 135 points

Force India Mercedes - 98 points

McLaren-Mercedes - 97 points

 

Going by that (which is very flawed though) Mercedes had about the same advantage over those teams last year. Just something to add to the discussion, as I said it is not a good method to judge if MGP chassis went forward compared to the other Mercedes powered teams but still helps a bit.

[Clatter]

Yeah, they would. Why is that even a question?

Because if it were all about the engines then the top 3 would all be Merc engined teams.

[Gridfire]

Looking at how poorly the other non-Mercedes engined teams are doing, I'd say the RedBull would be a very strong contender this year if the Mercedes had a Renault or Ferrari engine. The Merc is clearly a good car, but I think Redbull would be fighting hard for the championship this year if the relative engine performance was the same as 2013. 

 

That said, Vettel is clearly having some kind of trouble with the way the car works this year, so perhaps it's chassis speed comes with some downsides that the Mercedes doesn't have. Ricciardo seems to be coping, however. 

 

As PlatenGlas said, McLaren appear to be absolutely abysmal this year given how well the power unit should be performing. Maybe the help they're getting from Mercedes is just not there anymore, given the imminent supplier change. I'd imagine McLaren still needs lots of information and ongoing support to get the best out of these power units from their manufacturer, as complex as they are.

[Clatter]

Looking at how poorly the other non-Mercedes engined teams are doing, I'd say the RedBull would be a very strong contender this year if the Mercedes had a Renault or Ferrari engine. The Merc is clearly a good car, but I think Redbull would be fighting hard for the championship this year if the relative engine performance was the same as 2013. 

 

That said, Vettel is clearly having some kind of trouble with the way the car works this year, so perhaps it's chassis speed comes with some downsides that the Mercedes doesn't have. Ricciardo seems to be coping, however. 

 

As PlatenGlas said, McLaren appear to be absolutely abysmal this year given how well the power unit should be performing. Maybe the help they're getting from Mercedes is just not there anymore, given the imminent supplier change. I'd imagine McLaren still needs lots of information and ongoing support to get the best out of these power units from their manufacturer, as complex as they are.

They more than likely are not getting as much help as they might like, but I seriously doubt they can blame the PU for their performance woes.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

I think the Red Bull car is still the best CAR - only let down by a poor engine. Still, look where they are relative to the other Renault runners; proof that they have a great package. Their downforce levels are also mighty impressive especially in high speed corners too.

 

That Mercedes unit in the Red Bull.....= annihalation.

[Gridfire]

They more than likely are not getting as much help as they might like, but I seriously doubt they can blame the PU for their performance woes.

 

Well it's a possibility that FI and Williams are simply getting better support than McLaren. I doubt Mercedes would be that unprofessional though, and yes it is clear the McLaren chassis is shockingly poor this year. Doesn't seem to matter how much money and experience McLaren have, their car's performance always appears to be down to more luck than judgement each year =/

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I think the Red Bull car is still the best CAR - only let down by a poor engine. Still, look where they are relative to the other Renault runners; proof that they have a great package. Their downforce levels are also mighty impressive especially in high speed corners too.

 

That Mercedes unit in the Red Bull.....= annihalation.

It may not be that simple - There aerodynamic principle may not be possible with the Mercedes engine...

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Well it's a possibility that FI and Williams are simply getting better support than McLaren. I doubt Mercedes would be that unprofessional though, and yes it is clear the McLaren chassis is shockingly poor this year. Doesn't seem to matter how much money and experience McLaren have, their car's performance always appears to be down to more luck than judgement each year =/

Has Perez got a very good point with what he said FI compared to McLaren? sometimes too much money can caused other problems...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 11 August 2014 - 11:30.

[paulogman]

No.
Not because it's a bad car
The merc engine is just too good compared to the others.
The only reason Ricciardo won those two times is because merc hit trouble or got caught out by the safety car.
The pace was not there.

Edited by paulogman, 11 August 2014 - 12:32.

[garagetinkerer]

Has Perez got a very good point with what he said FI compared to McLaren? sometimes too much money can caused other problems...

I think other problems are causing problems at McLaren. McLaren as we're learning now, have been working like Ferrrari, a little too political. That never helps. I think when they had relative freedom 2010-2012... the cars were at the sharp end of the grid. Perhaps this is more for the McLaren thread.

[Kraken]

They more than likely are not getting as much help as they might like, but I seriously doubt they can blame the PU for their performance woes.

It's a general lack of downforce and a lack of information from Mercedes about mapping that's holding McLaren back. They're the only Mercedes team to use a different fuel after all and it's no surprise that Mercedes would hold back info given the Honda situation.

[Clatter]

It's a general lack of downforce and a lack of information from Mercedes about mapping that's holding McLaren back. They're the only Mercedes team to use a different fuel after all and it's no surprise that Mercedes would hold back info given the Honda situation.

That's just guess work, and even if it is the case it would not result in a downgrade of performance enough to put them where they are. The problems lie with the car, not the engine.

[OO7]

2013 constructor points of current Mercedes powered teams:

 

Mercedes 360 - points

McLaren-Mercedes - 122 points

Force India Mercedes - 77 points

Williams Renault - 5 points

 

2014 so far:

 

Mercedes - 393 points

Williams Renault - 135 points

Force India Mercedes - 98 points

McLaren-Mercedes - 97 points

 

Going by that (which is very flawed though) Mercedes had about the same advantage over those teams last year. Just something to add to the discussion, as I said it is not a good method to judge if MGP chassis went forward compared to the other Mercedes powered teams but still helps a bit.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to compare with the 2013 constructors points tally after eleven rounds had been completed?

[Kraken]

That's just guess work, and even if it is the case it would not result in a downgrade of performance enough to put them where they are. The problems lie with the car, not the engine.

Not according to Jonathan Neale it's not. He has basically said that they don't have access to all the info they need because of the Honda situation.

[Dan333SP]

Put the Life W12 in it. I doubt it would win.

Probably not, but can you imagine how much this would improve the quality of the sound? Might as well be the Lambo V12, then we'd really be talking.

I know we are joking, but it'd be interesting to see a team trying to fit one of those older 3.5L engines in the back of a 2014 car. The packaging obviously wouldn't work, and I'd imagine that even with the ERS and batteries, the current PUs are still a fraction of the size of the older engines with their plumbing.