121 replies to this topic

[MightyMoose]

A question to ponder, we've seen FIFA/UEFA get blamed because they allow & apparently silently condone the dive culture prevalent in soccer. Cricket authorities have been slow to stop the sledging and corruption that resides in that sport, the NFL gave a slap on the wrist (metaphorically) to a woman beater & the concept of "plunking" a hitter is well known in Baseball.

So, does the philosophy of "Boys have at it" have the responsibility for encouraging & celebrating on-track/off-track confrontations which has escalated & resulted in the death on Saturday?

Are we at risk of confusing the closed wheel rubbing is racing code with a need to allow emotions to flow?

Would we prefer the sterile, media-friendly no comment atmosphere in F1 or do we applaud Indycar "That was a 'dick move'" quotes which show the emotion we know is out there?

I don't want to derail to comments on the conduct of people on Saturday night, there's a perfectly good thread for that, but overall do we think that if we accept emotion, sometimes we must accept it can overflow with all the negative consequences that may bring, or do we want controls to say "here's the line, don't cross it!"

[wrighty]

No because the sprint car meeting wasn't a NASCAR-sanctioned event.

[Muppetmad]

I think there is a clear line; going to the press and having a Will Power-style rant is both acceptable and hilarious (his interview at Toronto a few years back was one of the most hysterically funny things I have ever seen). Being a vigilante and trying to take the law into your own hands by having a confrontation with another driver in the middle of a race is another thing. If you have an issue with a driver, let the stewards sort it out.

Edited by Muppetmad, 11 August 2014 - 11:36.

[UPRC]

Kevin Ward, but no. I see it just a horrible freak accident.

mod: thanks, edited title very clumsy of me.

[Jackmancer]

A tiny bit, as the whole racing scene in America does, I think. They all created the circumstances for it to be normal to walk on the track, trying to brawl with a rival.

The audience love it, normally.

[redreni]

I don't think it has to be one thing or the other, and the reason F1 drivers don't say much is they have a justified fear of their comments being taken out of context and twisted beyond all recognition. I don't think they're afraid of censure by the FIA. I hwve no problem with North American racing culture in terms of fueds, insults etc, but I think the authorities abrogate their responsibility to the competitors when they don't take any serious action against drivers who wreck other drivers intentionally, and I think the non-enforcement culture when it comes to what many fans regard as pernickety, nannyish rules (like don't enter a live race track on foot, for example) amounts to a poor safety culture.

It's a bit strong to say they're responsible for the death that's occurred, but for me, if my kid got hurt falling off a wall at his school, if the school had a rule that the kids weren't allowed to climb on the wall and my kid broke the rule, I would accept that it was his own fault, but if I were to find out that kids climb on the wall all the time and the school never does anything about it, that would make the school partly if not mostly responsible.

[chunder27]

If any guy gets out of his car on a live race track and runs down or near to the racing line, there is little you can do.

Anyone remember Schanche in Finland in 1992?  He did exactly the same when he got pissewd coz he was punted wide and out, tried to take out the guys doing it, rammed the bank, got out of the car and forced everyone to spin.

 

What would have happened if one of them had hit him?  THe bloke was banned for a long time.

 

This lad was young, clearly full of adrenaline and thought it would be a good idea to berate a guy on track, we have all seen the clips of guys throwing helmets into cabs, even diving into cockpits, but if you do that kind of thing you are putting yourself at more risk.

 

Smoke is a top level racer, who has driver all sorts of cars for years. He will be mortified, but blameless, and anyone that thnks he did this deliberately needs help.

[johnmhinds]

These kind of on track/on camera driver confrontations were happening at races before NASCAR's "Boys have at it" policy, so that policy can't be blamed for instigating that kind of behavior, but it did actively encourage more on and off track driver confrontations for the show.

 

Highlight reels and slow motion edits full of crashes and drivers arguing have always been common place in US motorsports broadcasts, so it's probably not surprising that grass roots drivers in the US are emulating that kind of thing after watching their racing idols do it.

[Spillage]

I think there is a clear line; going to the press and having a Will Power-style rant is both acceptable and hilarious (his interview at Toronto a few years back was one of the most hysterically funny things I have ever seen). Being a vigilante and trying to take the law into your own hands by having a confrontation with another driver in the middle of a race is another thing. If you have an issue with a driver, let the stewards sort it out.

I agree with this. Like I said in the other thread, as good fun as these things can be, this kind of thing needs to stay behind the safety fences. Bitchy interviews, glove-throwing, even Tracy/Tagliani-style punch-ups are all good theater but if they're going to happen, they shouldn't happen on a live racetrack.

 

So in answer to the question posed in the OP, I think yes. I think NASCAR should make clear that if you want to shout, scream or even throw a punch at a fellow competitor, do it after the race. Do it on the other side of the catch-fencing. Do it in the paddock. But don't do it where you might get in the way of some extremely high-performance racing vehicles.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I don't think it has to be one thing or the other, and the reason F1 drivers don't say much is they have a justified fear of their comments being taken out of context and twisted beyond all recognition. I don't think they're afraid of censure by the FIA. I hwve no problem with North American racing culture in terms of fueds, insults etc, but I think the authorities abrogate their responsibility to the competitors when they don't take any serious action against drivers who wreck other drivers intentionally, and I think the non-enforcement culture when it comes to what many fans regard as pernickety, nannyish rules (like don't enter a live race track on foot, for example) amounts to a poor safety culture.

It's a bit strong to say they're responsible for the death that's occurred, but for me, if my kid got hurt falling off a wall at his school, if the school had a rule that the kids weren't allowed to climb on the wall and my kid broke the rule, I would accept that it was his own fault, but if I were to find out that kids climb on the wall all the time and the school never does anything about it, that would make the school partly if not mostly responsible.

You can not have rules to cover every life event! If you did the rule book would be endless!

 

But I find it hard to believe that anyone would tolerant a driver walking on a live race track! Lessons need to be learned and fast if that culture is tolerated.

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 11 August 2014 - 12:25.

[Prost1997T]

I just looked at the rulebook for this particular Sprint Car series (ESS)...

 

 

 A.4  No member shall use abusive language, or threaten bodily harm or equipment damage, when addressing another member or track official or subject such persons to unwanted physical contact.

 

 

C.3  A violation of any rule or order is subject to a warning, loss of points, loss of position, and in the event of continued occurrences, suspension.

 

 

C.8  Any driver causing excessive delays in a race, such as two unassisted yellows or violating any rule of procedure will be removed from the track and scoring will be stopped for that driver.

 

I don't know if Ward was given any instructions over the radio, but at the very least he was violating the first rule.

[MaxScelerate]

No radio in that series, as far as I know. Of course, he would have been briefed before the race but, live, no one to try and reason him (or tell Stewart or any other driver to watch out for a man on the track).

(Edit: sorry for participating in derailing the thread)

I do think NASCAR encouraging this sort of behavior is wrong and may have played a part, like the chorus in classical Greek tragedy.

Edited by MaxScelerate, 11 August 2014 - 13:10.

[redreni]

You can not have rules to cover every life event! If you did the rule book would be endless!
 
But I find it hard to believe that anyone would tolerant a driver walking on a live race track! Lessons need to be learned and fast if that culture is tolerated.

They do have rules about this. I'm not advocating making any extra rules, I am saying if this kind of rule is broken, some sort of warning or sanction ought to follow.

[ExFlagMan]

I guess it's a bit like the rules in F1 on track limits, blocking etc. - as soon as the authorities try and implement the letter of the law, the whole (internet) world complains about them 'ruining the racing'

[Mila]

It isn't just NASCAR, or sports, for that matter. In recent years, traits like ethical ambivalence, immaturity, and belligerence have been heavily promoted in a number of realms.

Edited by Mila, 11 August 2014 - 13:53.

[saudoso]

Yeah, like posting advisories that one could choke by pulling a plastic bag over his head or that microwave ovens are not intended to be used as hair driers for cats, people must be made aware of what is safe and what is not.

Edited by saudoso, 11 August 2014 - 14:11.

[Richard T]

Doing what Kevin did and many other NASCAR drivers have done should be severely punished because it's ducking dangerous! And it sets a bad example for young karters and racing drivers

[FBJim]

The act of running out of your car and doing the whole helmet/glove throwing routine should have been cracked down on by NASCAR years ago, if only because it had gotten old right around the 25th time someone did it. They didn't, because it looks good in highlight reels and on sports shows, and because it promotes an image of good-old macho short track racing that a great deal of spectators love. Direct responsibility? No, but Kevin Ward almost certainly grew up watching drivers like Tony Stewart run into caution-flag traffic to show how much of a man they were. And now it turns out that running into a live racetrack is actually dangerous.

Edited by FBJim, 11 August 2014 - 14:15.

[Richard T]

If the rules are changed its another sad example of only reacting when it's to late

[HaydenFan]

Have to get Jim Thurman or another one of the "old-timers" in on this who know the local short track scene better than I, but it seems to be just the culture. Remember, that series, at the racetrack is essentially a club event. Most of the drivers are amateurs. They spent the little money they have (I have a relative who raced sprint cars and I know those costs are outrageous), and tempers flair and helmets get thrown. 

 

Is NASCAR to blame? Yes and no. NASCAR brought it to the forefront of everyone's attention. But this pro wrestling attitude in U.S. circle track motorsport is very ingrained. And with no true sanction body over every track (the ACCUS, US FIA affiliate does little in push standards across the board). little can really by done to change it. 

[scheivlak]

If there's an outside responsiblity some broadcasters might well take a share of it.

 

I'm amazed how lighthearted - for lack of a better word - commentators (FOX  or sometimes others as well) react to transgressions or incidents like Tony Stewart throwing his helmet at another car. It's like they say: "OK boys, now it's time for some entertainment!"

[FBJim]

I remember a year ago, there was an incident at Belle Isle where a track marshal was holding Will Power (who had wrecked) back from trying to rush a car that was driving past under caution. Power ended up throwing his gloves from a distance. What was amazing was that I remember a lot of fans reacted online with anger towards the track worker, as if it was a driver's divine right to run up to moving cars in an active raceway. 

[saudoso]

Just let natural selection do it's job.

[Burai]

What Kevin Ward did was far beyond what I've seen in NASCAR. Whilst it all looks very dangerous and entertaining, all of the NASCAR examples I've seen of remonstrating with passing vehicles are done with some level of control and self-awareness. The example with Stewart throwing his helmet at Keselowski... He waited for the safety team before he got out of the car and, once the field was neutralised he went into the pit lane, stood behind the white line and threw his helmet at Keselowski who was under the pitlane speed limit. It's still incredibly stupid, but at least he tried to minimise the risk to himself and others.

 

Ward just threw all common sense and self-preservation out of the window when he did what he did. He didn't wait for the safety team, he didn't wait for the field to neutralise and he walked down toward the racing line on what is a very narrow track with cars that are inclined to get the back out and move up the turn. It's an awful tragedy, but the only person responsible for the death of Kevin Ward is Kevin Ward.

[MikeV1987]

Absolutely not, that is purely between those two drivers imo.

Edited by MikeV1987, 11 August 2014 - 15:34.

[InSearchOfThe]

No.

Life is about freewill. Ward exercised his and paid the ultimate price. It has nothing to do with Nascar.

[tifosi]

What does NASCAR have to do with what hapopened Saturday night?

[Atreiu]

Just let natural selection do it's job.

 

Here, take a cookie for virtual toughness and machismo.

 

 

If NASCAR has any responsability, it's at best indirect for promoting this drivers solving it by themselves on the track attitude. 

Edited by Atreiu, 11 August 2014 - 15:53.

[TheMidnight]

No responsibility for NASCAR or the broadcasters.....irrespective of the compilation scenes each season.

 

Plenty of competitors get taken out and don't react with throwing a hissy fit...

[Andrew Hope]

I wasn't aware it was NASCAR's job to raise your kids. They can set an example for anything they like, but that doesn't make them responsible, morally or legally, for your poor decisions. NASCAR sets a lot of bad examples, but I'm just old enough to remember an age where holding someone accountable for their own actions wasn't seen as cruel and unusual punishment. You'd think there was a NASCAR official behind him that pushed him in front of Stewart the way some are talking.

 

"NASCAR sets the example that it's okay to get out of your car on track and threaten/throw helmets/whatever at another driver". Well, it was indeed okay for the hundreds of times people have managed to do this in NASCAR and not get run over (including hours before this accident, someone did the exact same thing in the Nationwide race at Watkins Glen).

 

I can see how NASCAR's "wrestling style" approach to this kind of **** leaves a bad taste in some people's mouths but that's a long way from being responsible, however indirectly, for a young man's poor decisions. Ward was very young but he was legally an adult and either he acted very stupidly or he let adrenaline get the best of him. His body language as he gets out of his car suggests the latter. Standing on the side of the track as other cars crawl by under yellow to flip off the guy who spun you is very different than running directly onto the racing line shaking your fists. To do that at night, on a small dirt track, wearing a black firesuit, in full knowledge that the right side of a sprint car is nearly impossible to see out of, and ignoring a car that almost hit you two seconds earlier to then run even closer onto the racing line... I'm sorry, but that's too many bad decisions in a row to place the blame on anyone other than Ward himself.

 

Maybe Smoke gunned it. Maybe he wanted to show the kid up or spray him with dirt or whatever. That doesn't mean it was okay for Ward to be where he was, and we have already heard from plenty of well-informed people from the world of sprint car racing saying how it's very likely Stewart didn't see him at all, or else only saw him at the last moment when it was too late to miss him. It seems poor form to demonize the guy that hit him, because assuming Stewart did try to scare Ward, Ward still shouldn't have been anywhere near where he was, yellow flag or not. A possible bad decision by Stewart doesn't excuse a confirmed terrible decision by Ward. It was a sickening accident and that is a hard way to go out, one that no one deserves, but ultimately I don't see it any other way than that the kid made a mistake, and whether he was influenced by NASCAR's culture or not, it was an awful decision and he paid for it brutally.

[Burtros]

Monkey See, Monkey Do.

 

NASCAR appear to have embraced fighting between drivers at times....... I think thats the mistake they made.

 

You cant blame NASCAR directly, but, I think its wishful to think that stars fighting track side isnt going to be copied sooner or later.

[HoldenRT]

The drivers need to be punished/forced to have more control of themselves.  There are still standards to live up to, no matter how pissed off you are.  You are supposed to be a professional, and I'd die of shock to ever see an F1 driver acting like that.

 

It's a culture thing.

 

How about some personal responsibility?  In any incident, it usually takes two to tango.  That never hurts.  And even when it's clearly one drivers fault, there still should be a code of conduct.

[scheivlak]

 

 

Plenty of competitors get taken out and don't react with throwing a hissy fit...

But when competitors do throw a hissy fit commentators often enjoy it for its entertainment value.

[superden]

No, this wasn't a NASCAR event ...

[HoldenRT]

But when competitors do throw a hissy fit commentators often enjoy it for its entertainment value.

 

Not just the TV side, but also people in the grandstands.

 

Pretty much always, when I see drivers acting in a stupid way, it's nearly always in the US, in Indycar or NASCAR.  Do you want it to be a sporting event, or a hoedown with shotguns shooting saying "yeeehaw"?

 

There needs to be a code of conduct.  They need to act like professonials.
 

[Jim Thurman]

Moose, while you mean well here, this is going to just devolve into a blame and bash all things American by non-Americans that don't know the first thing about what they're going off about...like in that other thread. The ones that start with "I don't know much about this form of racing..." and then proceed to give great, in-depth analysis

 

While you raise some interesting points, NASCAR was involved in no way, shape or form with the race where this happened.  Stewart happens to be a NASCAR driver who races in sprint car events sanctioned by other, smaller organizations.  The vast majority of the 1000+  U.S. short oval tracks are sanctioned by smaller or even local, independent associations.

 

Or, to sum it up as wrighty did so well: No because the sprint car meeting wasn't a NASCAR-sanctioned event.

 

I don't know when the first driver confronted another driver on track (perhaps when the second or third came along?), but I've seen photos of a driver throwing his helmet at a passing car...in 1971.

That's long before "Have at it boys" and Tony Stewart was in diapers.

 

While on-track confrontations do happen and aren't uncommon, neither is it something that happens on a weekly basis at the 1000+ short ovals around the U.S.

 

There are many things to blame NASCAR for, rightly so, but something they weren't involved with isn't among them.

[Jim Thurman]

MightyMoose, never mind...it's already passed the de-evolution point.

[johnmhinds]

The thread title should probably changed to something like "Do famous driver's actions influence the behavior of younger drivers"

 

Of course NASCAR themselves aren't directly responsible for this incident, but the actions of some top level drivers and the way they are broadcasted must have some influence over how younger drivers behave.

 

We all try to emulate our heroes.

[Andrew Hope]

Not just the TV side, but also people in the grandstands.

 

Pretty much always, when I see drivers acting in a stupid way, it's nearly always in the US, in Indycar or NASCAR.  Do you want it to be a sporting event, or a hoedown with shotguns shooting saying "yeeehaw"?

 

There needs to be a code of conduct.  They need to act like professonials.
 

They aren't professionals.

[discover23]

The drivers need to be punished/forced to have more control of themselves. There are still standards to live up to, no matter how pissed off you are. You are supposed to be a professional, and I'd die of shock to ever see an F1 driver acting like that.

It's a culture thing.

How about some personal responsibility? In any incident, it usually takes two to tango. That never hurts. And even when it's clearly one drivers fault, there still should be a code of conduct.

What do you say about irresponsible fans who get too close to the roads in Rally just waiting for a tragedy to happen once a car runs off the road.

This event is not sanctioned by NASCAR just like Rally has nothing to do with F1.. Other than Tony Always interested in racing in those cars just like Kubica and Kimi enjoy rallying..

Edited by discover23, 11 August 2014 - 17:05.

[HoldenRT]

I'm pro America in most things, I didn't even like the Watkins Glen topic with "and let there be right turns, there is a thing called a right turn"..

 

And I think there is a lot of things that Euros could learn from sports like NBA or NFL.  Or just American culture in general.  There are positives to it.

 

But not when the racing drivers get hot headed and throw their helmet on track, or have weird rants or act like douchebags.  Or act overly macho, or hot headed.  Especially if it's considered entertaining or encouraged.

 

Motor racing is a complex sport and they should act mature and evolved.. not like macho cavemen.  Save that for WWE wrestling.

[HoldenRT]

They aren't professionals.

 

Are you talking about sprint car or NASCAR?  Even if you are talking about sprint car, it's a culture within the whole system.

 

They are payed to do something for a living = professionals.  The amateurs are people like you and me that turn up to a racetrack with our own car and pretend we are race drivers.

 

If you are on TV, if you have sponsors on the car, you're a professional.
 

[HoldenRT]

What do you say about irresponsible fans who get too close to the roads in Rally just waiting for a tragedy to happen once a car runs off the road.

This event is not sanctioned by NASCAR just like Rally has nothing to do with F1.. Other than Tony Always interested in racing in those cars just like Kubica and Kimi enjoy rallying..

 

The fans and the competitors are two different things.  The fans don't need a code of conduct, they just need common sense.
 

[discover23]

The fans and the competitors are two different things. The fans don't need a code of conduct, they just need common sense.

Well, I think the Rally culture and the organizers overall are unprofessional for allowing these unfortunate accidents to occur.. There should be not reason for people to lose their lives just for going to watch a top series racing event - it's primitive.

Edited by discover23, 11 August 2014 - 17:13.

[Andrew Hope]

Are you talking about sprint car or NASCAR?  Even if you are talking about sprint car, it's a culture within the whole system.

 

They are payed to do something for a living = professionals.  The amateurs are people like you and me that turn up to a racetrack with our own car and pretend we are race drivers.

 

If you are on TV, if you have sponsors on the car, you're a professional.
 

Most sprint car drivers aren't professionals, they are guys with regular jobs during the week who race on Saturday nights. It's just something to clarify because that's part of the reason we see so much rage when you get taken out of a race: if you put every spare chunk of change you can scrounge together into a car, an engine, a trailer, etc. so you can go racing on Saturday and then some NASCAR guy with a million billion dollars takes you out, it's more understandable to be hot with anger and make poor decisions. In NASCAR if Tony Stewart takes you out, you're pissed but you're still going to have a car next weekend. In a local, small-time modified/sprint car/late model whatever race it's a different story. It might be a year or more before you have the cash to race again. It may have taken longer than that to be able to race in the first place. It's still just as dumb to run out onto a live race track but it's at least a little more understandable. Kevin Ward specifically may have been considered a professional, I don't know about him personally. But short track racing such as this is a world apart from anything we see on TV. It's small-time stuff, there's a reason the only video of the crash is from a fan in the stands.

Edited by Andrew Hope, 11 August 2014 - 17:15.

[ExFlagMan]

 

 

Posted Today, 17:34

The drivers need to be punished/forced to have more control of themselves.  There are still standards to live up to, no matter how pissed off you are.  You are supposed to be a professional, and I'd die of shock to ever see an F1 driver acting like that.

 

I can think of at least 4 F1 world champions who have offered/threatened violence to fellow drivers, two of whom did it out on the circuit, one actually crossing a live track to do so. 

 

I will not post links as I do not wish to risk losing your input to the board

Edited by ExFlagMan, 11 August 2014 - 17:32.

[RStock]

Moose, while you mean well here, this is going to just devolve into a blame and bash all things American by non-Americans that don't know the first thing about what they're going off about...like in that other thread. The ones that start with "I don't know much about this form of racing..." and then proceed to give great, in-depth analysis

 

While you raise some interesting points, NASCAR was involved in no way, shape or form with the race where this happened.  Stewart happens to be a NASCAR driver who races in sprint car events sanctioned by other, smaller organizations.  The vast majority of the 1000+  U.S. short oval tracks are sanctioned by smaller or even local, independent associations.

 

Or, to sum it up as wrighty did so well: No because the sprint car meeting wasn't a NASCAR-sanctioned event.

 

I don't know when the first driver confronted another driver on track (perhaps when the second or third came along?), but I've seen photos of a driver throwing his helmet at a passing car...in 1971.

That's long before "Have at it boys" and Tony Stewart was in diapers.

 

While on-track confrontations do happen and aren't uncommon, neither is it something that happens on a weekly basis at the 1000+ short ovals around the U.S.

 

There are many things to blame NASCAR for, rightly so, but something they weren't involved with isn't among them.

 

 

Agreed on all points Jim. I was attending dirt track races when the only NASCAR racing we saw were occasional highlights on Wide World of Sports, even before that actually, and even then guys got upset when they thought someone crashed them. Walking out to give a finger or maybe even throw a helmet happened then as it does now, but as you say it wasn't something that happened often. However I can't recall someone who seemed as intent as young Mr Ward appeared to be at getting to the driver they were upset with while the other driver was in a moving car. His body language suggested he wanted Stewart to stop there and punch it out. He let his emotions get the best of him and paid the ultimate price.

 

And those who seem to cast this as an "American thing" don't take into account that if it happens more often here, it's probably because we race more than other places. When you take into account all the short tracks and sanctioning bodies across the US, I don't think anywhere else even comes close. There were races like what Stewart and Ward were competing in happening all over the US at the very same time, in nearly every state of the Union. There is just more opportunity for these things to happen.

 

Another thing to take into account is that on a short oval, the chance for something like this is greater than on say a road course. Stewart came back around before the safety crew had a chance to arrive on the scene and perhaps restrain Ward. On road courses a safety crew would probably have been on the scene well before the cars came back around, and there would also be a longer "cooling off" period for someone like Ward. Full course cautions are also rare in most road races, so a driver doesn't have the opportunity to walk on track with the cars idling by.

 

That said, I understand what the OP means, NASCAR has of late encouraged these confrontations so while they certainly bear no direct responsibility, they have not been setting the best example. I do believe this will be a thing of the past however. I've seen many other "old salts" agree it's a miracle something like this hasn't happened before. I'm reasonably certain tracks and sanctioning bodies will take a no tolerance approach from here on out, so maybe a positive will come from this all.

 

Richard Petty once quit NASCAR after his car was ruled illegal and went drag racing. Ran a car named "Outlaw" if I recall correctly. During a meet he lost control and crashed through a barrier, striking and killing a very young boy. He was devastated as I'm sure Stewart is right now, but when looking back on it years later he said that in situations like that you have to try to look for a positive. The positive in his case was that the barriers were improved to prevent it from happening again.

So hopefully in this case we have a positive come from a tragedy. Sanctioning bodies and tracks need to enact rules about a driver doing what Ward did and what we see many other drivers do all the time. It is probably just luck that someone hasn't been killed before this. New rules will need real teeth though. Tracks and sanctioning bodies will ban you for running illegal parts, this type of reaction should warrant a ban as well.

Edited by RStock, 11 August 2014 - 17:57.

[Red17]

A question to ponder, we've seen FIFA/UEFA get blamed because they allow & apparently silently condone the dive culture prevalent in soccer. Cricket authorities have been slow to stop the sledging and corruption that resides in that sport, the NFL gave a slap on the wrist (metaphorically) to a woman beater & the concept of "plunking" a hitter is well known in Baseball.

So, does the philosophy of "Boys have at it" have the responsibility for encouraging & celebrating on-track/off-track confrontations which has escalated & resulted in the death on Saturday?

Are we at risk of confusing the closed wheel rubbing is racing code with a need to allow emotions to flow?

Would we prefer the sterile, media-friendly no comment atmosphere in F1 or do we applaud Indycar "That was a 'dick move'" quotes which show the emotion we know is out there?

I don't want to derail to comments on the conduct of people on Saturday night, there's a perfectly good thread for that, but overall do we think that if we accept emotion, sometimes we must accept it can overflow with all the negative consequences that may bring, or do we want controls to say "here's the line, don't cross it!"

 

The problem is not NASCAR itself.

NASCAR has a product that needs to sell, if on track fighting (which seems to be an accepted thing in the US) sells, then NASCAR allows it.

That does not mean it's good practice, I still don't understand how drivers are allowed to throw helmets and get away with light penalties. Even more, the promos for the Bristol races always show the helmet throwing, it's something that people expect to see and want to see.

 

Buttom line is, this sort of behaviour will only go away when the audiences stop liking, rules alone won't make it uncool, drivers can help not only by avoiding it, but the change has to be called from the stands.

[Risil]

It isn't just NASCAR, or sports, for that matter. In recent years, traits like ethical ambivalence, immaturity, and belligerence have been heavily promoted in a number of realms.

 

Since around Joshua's time, I'd say.

Edited by Risil, 11 August 2014 - 18:19.

[Jim Thurman]

Rob, excellent post that unfortunately will do little to stem the tide.

 

Too many here are simply seeing things and basing their opinions solely through the eyes of F1, or worse, their stereotypes and misperceptions about the U.S. and U.S racing.  You make a great point that is lost on them.  These cars circulate a track like the one involved Saturday in about 15 seconds.  Also, a caution in short track racing is unlike road racing in that speeds are reduced even further than a local yellow on a road course.  I love all the comments in that other wretched thread about a "course car coming to pick him up" and wondering where it was. Oy!  To address all the clueless errors in this and the other thread would take far too much time.

 

Note, to all of you who actually aren't biased, can pay attention and are interested in actually, like, learning. I salute you

Edited by Jim Thurman, 11 August 2014 - 18:25.