146 replies to this topic

[ensign14]

His best F1 result was 4th in the 1952 Swiss Grand Prix, after starting 13th in an outdated Fraser-Nash FN48.

 

*cough*

 

( )

[Amphicar]

*cough*
 
( )

Guessing you're referring to the fact that the 1952 F1 Championship was run to F2 rules - it was still (officially) an F1 race.

[ensign14]

Guessing you're referring to the fact that the 1952 F1 Championship was run to F2 rules - it was still (officially) an F1 race.

 

How come nobody turned up in an F1 car and lapped the field then?

[nordschleife]

Furthermore, one race weekend in 1960 at Solitude (you should shiver at the mention of it) as he was transitioning from bikes to cars he drove an F2 single seater (dnf) and a 500 cc MV Agusta (1st). I mean wha... ? Who does that?

 

 

Well, actually ...

 

"Nuvolari started racing motorcycles in 1920 at the age of 27, winning the 1925 350cc European Championship. Having raced cars as well as motorcycles from 1925 until 1930, he then concentrated on cars ..." 

Source: Wikipedia

 

Considering his Vanderbilt Cup win, Mille Miglia wins, yada yada, I'd say he's quite an all-rounder. When Herr Doktor Porsche and Ing. Ferrari say he's the best ever, well, I would think the room should fall silent at that point.

 

http://www.motorspor.../#comment-21164

 

Edited by nordschleife, 16 August 2014 - 22:41.

[RS2000]

 Jim Clark's '66 RAC Rally drive in the Lotus Cortina was amazing.

No it wasn't. It was what was to be expected in the (briefly) dominant forest rally car with the two quickest drivers in similar cars out early on. JC (of whom I was a great fan) was a local rally driver on what were close to stage events on farm tracks long before he drove on a race circuit.

The answer was given in post two. One of the drivers who JC wouldn't have seen for dust (or mud) on the 66 RAC if he had had a sound car. This question has been posed long before and ad infinitem. Elford is always accepted as the only possible answer.

 

Journalist in a gents toilet on the 66 RAC: "So,Vic, what do you think of Jimmy's performance?"

VE: "If I was getting as much help as he is, I'd be leading - and if he was gettin as much help as I am, he'd be out by now".  

[chipmcdonald]

Surtees - nobody has done 2 wheels > 4 wheels like that.

Mario.

Travis Pastrana

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Risil]

Pastrana? At least Ricky Carmichael was successful at one of the two racing disciplines he competed in.

 

Since no one's mentioned him yet, I'll say Eddie Lawson. A near-Hailwood or Surtees on four wheels, and then switched to Indycars in his mid 30s. Won an Indy Lights race and was putting in very respectable results with the Galles CART team in 1996 (two sixths at the US 500 and the sodden Detroit GP) when he was dropped midseason. Not quite sure what the circumstances were but I've read from others that he was quite hard done by.

 

Okay so he's not a Surtees or Hailwood or Leonard or Weatherly, but to have got as far as he did in the more specialized 1990s was an impressive achievement. He also won world championships on a Yamaha and Honda, which in bike terms makes him a remarkable all-rounder.

Edited by Risil, 16 August 2014 - 22:34.

[chipmcdonald]

Pastrana? At least Ricky Carmichael was successful at one of the two racing disciplines he competed in.

 

 

Neither really matters relative to Surtee's and Andretti success, but I put Pastrana in a different category simply for his willingness to drive anything well beyond the limit. 

[Risil]

Neither really matters relative to Surtee's and Andretti success, but I put Pastrana in a different category simply for his willingness to drive anything well beyond the limit. 

 

Fair enough. I had a look at his Wikipedia page after that and the sheer amount of stuff he's done is bonkers impressive. Fear of failure isn't a trait we associate with racing drivers, but when you look at all the ones who don't choose to go outside their comfort zone, you wonder a little...

[ahw911]

No it wasn't. It was what was to be expected in the (briefly) dominant forest rally car with the two quickest drivers in similar cars out early on. JC (of whom I was a great fan) was a local rally driver on what were close to stage events on farm tracks long before he drove on a race circuit.

The answer was given in post two. One of the drivers who JC wouldn't have seen for dust (or mud) on the 66 RAC if he had had a sound car. This question has been posed long before and ad infinitem. Elford is always accepted as the only possible answer.

 

Journalist in a gents toilet on the 66 RAC: "So,Vic, what do you think of Jimmy's performance?"

VE: "If I was getting as much help as he is, I'd be leading - and if he was gettin as much help as I am, he'd be out by now".  

 

Well I stand corrected.

[chunder27]

Didnt Travis win or almost win a few 125 titles for Suzuki?

 

He has done a few things, and above all is a legend for getting into anything and pushing it, and also having the honesty to walk away from NASCAR saying he wasnt good enough.

 

Quite a few should have the same honesty I feel and dont and are quite happy to take the money and run!

[Amphicar]

He has done a few things, and above all is a legend for getting into anything and pushing it, and also having the honesty to walk away from NASCAR saying he wasnt good enough.
 
Quite a few should have the same honesty I feel and dont and are quite happy to take the money and run!

Or in the case of NASCAR, take the money and not run (aka start & park).

[rf90]

It's a shame modern motorsport doesn't give us fans the chance to see which F1 drivers could join the list of great all-rounders, as in winners in different categories, not just competitors. Who was the last F1 driver to deserve the great all-rounder accolade? Andretti?
Maybe it is contracts? Maybe modern F1 racing is just too specialised, because a driver would certainly have to adapt to different cars, tracks and driving techniques to be a winner in other than F1 also.

[johnzaxxon]

Since no one's mentioned him yet, I'll say Eddie Lawson.

If Eddie Lawson gets a mention, then maybe Wayne Gardner should get one as well: 1987 500cc champion, race winner in Australian touring cars and Japanese GT racing. Yes, he was nicknamed "Captain Chaos" but he also scored a pole position at Mount Panorama in the wet.

[JHSingo]

 

Don't forget about Robert Kubica (the current WRC-2 title holder). Maybe he'll do it, who knows?

 

 

That might require him to stop crashing several times on every rally first...

[Risil]

If Eddie Lawson gets a mention, then maybe Wayne Gardner should get one as well: 1987 500cc champion, race winner in Australian touring cars and Japanese GT racing. Yes, he was nicknamed "Captain Chaos" but he also scored a pole position at Mount Panorama in the wet.

 

Any driver who has the nickname "Captain Chaos" has earned their place on the list.

Edited by Risil, 17 August 2014 - 13:30.

[johnzaxxon]

That might require him to stop crashing several times on every rally first...

Can't argue with that

[midgrid]

I think Stéphane Peterhansel deserves a mention for his Dakar Rally successes with both bikes and cars (in addition to other rally-raids). The off-road equivalent of Surtees?

[D28]

For me, the greatest has to be Mario Andretti , hands down. Its not just his competitiveness in every conceivable form of racing, but the ease with which he adapted to new situations. I recall the shock at the Watkins Glen 1968 when he qualified the Lotus on pole first time out. Or the 1967 Daytona where he won despite Ford's wishes that one of their regular runners should prevail. How about his win at Pikes Peak, surely not something he was overly familiar with. Still the last American to win in F1, many of his records will stand up for years. 

[rf90]

For me, the greatest has to be Mario Andretti , hands down. Its not just his competitiveness in every conceivable form of racing, but the ease with which he adapted to new situations. I recall the shock at the Watkins Glen 1968 when he qualified the Lotus on pole first time out. Or the 1967 Daytona where he won despite Ford's wishes that one of their regular runners should prevail. How about his win at Pikes Peak, surely not something he was overly familiar with. Still the last American to win in F1, many of his records will stand up for years.

Agree, for me too.

[johnzaxxon]

I think Stéphane Peterhansel deserves a mention for his Dakar Rally successes with both bikes and cars (in addition to other rally-raids). The off-road equivalent of Surtees?

Actually, it's not that uncommon to be successful in off-road events on two as well as four wheels. Hubert Auriol and Nani Roma also won Dakar in both categories.

 

As a side note: taking into account that there aren't many similarities between the sand dunes of Dakar and the twisty (sometimes icy) asphalt roads of Monte Carlo rally, it's pretty impressive that Ari Vatanen, Bruno Saby and Carlos Sainz were able to win both events.

 

[demet06]

I would say Mario Andretti myself for all the reasons mentioned earlier. Jim Clark is a close second but he did lose a milk float race!

[Collombin]

I'm going to give a nod to Denny Hulme too.

WDC, Indy 500 rookie of the year, and quite possibly the greatest of all time in Can Am.

If Rindt had liked Indy more he could have beaten Hill to the triple crown - his Indy qualifying run on a damp track in 1968 is the stuff of legend.

[Dick Dastardly]

Not quite on the scale of those mentioned......Alain Prost.... 4 WDCs and 3 times Andros Trophy Ice Racing Champion

Edited by Dick Dastardly, 18 August 2014 - 11:26.

[johnzaxxon]

If Rindt had liked Indy more he could have beaten Hill to the triple crown - his Indy qualifying run on a damp track in 1968 is the stuff of legend.

And according to David Tremayne's book Rindt wanted to race in NASCAR, so Daytona...

 

Another name that hasn't been mentioned yet is Louis Chiron: the only driver to win both the Monaco Grand Prix (1931) and the Monte Carlo Rally (1954). Numerous wins in Grand Prix racing, including 5 wins in the French GP (the first one in 1931, the last one in 1949). Winner in endurance racing (1933 Spa 24 Hours), winner in hill climbing. Came 7th in the 1929 Indy 500.

[ahw911]

And according to David Tremayne's book Rindt wanted to race in NASCAR, so Daytona...

 

Another name that hasn't been mentioned yet is Louis Chiron: the only driver to win both the Monaco Grand Prix (1931) and the Monte Carlo Rally (1954). Numerous wins in Grand Prix racing, including 5 wins in the French GP (the first one in 1931, the last one in 1949). Winner in endurance racing (1933 Spa 24 Hours), winner in hill climbing. Came 7th in the 1929 Indy 500.

 

Loving the variety of names coming up here!

 

A refreshing change from the nonsense that's usually posted on the F1 driver threads

[nordschleife]

Okay, as Autosport has raised the question again, we might as well pick up where we left off ...

[HairyScalextrix]

If the question has been raised I'd have to say Moss followed by Quick Vic.

[KWSN - DSM]

I just repeat my self since have not changed my mind.

 

Marc Duez.

 

2nd Belgium Formula Ford

2nd European Formula Ford

1st Belgian Rally Championship 3 times

5th European Rally Championship

1st Spa 24 hour 2 times

2nd Spa 24 hour 2 times

2nd Le Mans C2 class

2nd Le Mans GTP class

3nd Le Mans GTP class

 

 

Wins in:

Volkswagen Europa Pokal

Porsche 944 Turbo Cup

Belgian Touring car

Procar Belgium

FIA GT

 

A driver driving 'anything' who have been racing since 1977 and who are still in the occasional race, last one being Monte Carlo WRC this (now that) year.

 

[kevinracefan]

foyt... gurney..

[kevinracefan]

 

Interesting thought but check this out :-

 

A J Foyt

• Foyt drove in the Indianapolis 500 for 35 consecutive years, winning it four times (the first of only three to do so).
• Foyt is the only driver to win the Indy 500 in both front and rear-engined cars, winning twice with both configurations.
• Foyt is the only driver to win the 24 Hours of Le Mans and the Indianapolis 500 the same year (1967).
• He is the only person to record victories in the Indianapolis 500, the Daytona 500 stock car race, the 24 Hours of Daytona (twice, with co-driver Bob Wollek), the 24 Hours of Le Mans international sports car endurance race in Le Mans, France, as well as the 12 Hours of Sebring (his last major professional win, in 1985, with co-driver Bob Wollek).
• He is one of only 12 drivers to have completed the Triple Crown of endurance racing (victories in the 12 Hours of Sebring, 24 Hours of Daytona and 24 Hours of Le Mans)
• Two time winner of IROC

• He also has 41 USAC Stock Car wins and 50 Sprint Car, Midget, and Dirt Champ Car wins.
• He won the 1975 and 1976 Australian Speedcar Grand Prix at the Liverpool Speedway in Sydney (in Australia midgets are called Speedcars).
• He has won 12 total major driving championships in various categories.
• His USAC wins tally is a record 138 (The late Rich Vogler is second with 132.)
• Foyt won the 1976 and 1977 IROC championships.
• Foyt won seven NASCAR races.
• Foyt, along with Mario Andretti, are the only men to win both the Indianapolis and Daytona 500s.
• Foyt holds the closed course speed record driving the Oldsmobile Aerotech at an average speed of 257.123 miles per hour (413.799 km/h). He set the record on 27 August 1987 at a 7.712-mile (12.411 km) test track near Fort Stockton, Texas.

 

the rest of the discussion can be about who else, but this IS THE GUY  (or was )

[kevinracefan]

Glad to see Foyt was mentioned. Just w. Indy, what a vast difference in the types of cars he drove there.

By the way, a friend grew up in Houston, Texas, Foyt's neck of the woods, and her dad used to go to local dirt races, saw Foyt when he was very young. He said it was clear that Foyt had something the others didn't have.

big balls

[Crazy Canuck]

While I believe that Mario Andretti is the best all rounder of all time, I'm shocked that Jacques Villeneuve hasn't had more nominations.  I know the guy is not well loved in this forum but he is far better than we seem to remember.

 

Notable achievements:

1995 Indy Car World Series Champion

1997 F1 WDC

2008 2nd in LeMans 24hrs

 

Not to mention he has also released a music album with total sales around 800 CD's lol.

 

CC

[Bloggsworth]

Moss - End of thread.

[chunder27]

Always Marc Duez, one of the most gifted drivers I have ever seen, and throttle control to match very few.  Moss had to do these things, it's what you did on those days. Duez chose to, and rarely in the best cars.

 

He drove a Sierra Cosworth round tight lanes in Belgium like a kid on a kart goes round Buckmore. Staggering ability.

[noriaki]

Obviously not the greatest of all time, for he hasn't got any prestigious victories - but it warrants a notion that Mattias Ekström is building up an impressive resume as far as motorsport all-rounding goes.

 

In addition to his day job at DTM, where he has been a consister front runner for 15 years already & twice a champion there, after last year he's also a Rallycross World Champion, having beaten the likes of Loeb, Solberg and all the rallycross regulars to the title. He's also had some one off shots at WRC, NASCAR Cup Series and Bathurst 1000 - generally, all those are incredibly challenging for a rookie and most "outsiders" who make such attempts will struggle and subsequently leave with their tails between their legs - yet Mattias was able to almost instantly at least challenge the regulars at each of the disciplines, and then leave them with his head held high. 

 

Would have been intriguing to see what he could have done if he ever had had a shot in F1, or at Le Mans, Indy, Daytona...

[PlayboyRacer]

While I believe that Mario Andretti is the best all rounder of all time, I'm shocked that Jacques Villeneuve hasn't had more nominations. I know the guy is not well loved in this forum but he is far better than we seem to remember.

Notable achievements:
1995 Indy Car World Series Champion
1997 F1 WDC
2008 2nd in LeMans 24hrs

Not to mention he has also released a music album with total sales around 800 CD's lol.

CC

Jacques is just not a popular choice, like the Donald Trump of the racing world!
He's not the greatest all rounder by any stretch but certainly with an Indy 500 win, CART championship, F1 World title, podium at Le Mans 24hr, won the Spa enduro same year, NASCAR appearances... absolutely deserves a solid mention.

Mario Andretti is the ultimate IMO. His career was predominantly in the USA and F1 never the ultimate commitment. Yet still he added the F1 World title to his accomplishments. Phenomenal in his day and has won some of the greatest races in the world, including in stock cars...plus an IndyCar legend.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 15 February 2017 - 05:09.

[eirwal]

Tazio Nuvolari has to be among the top ranked all-rounders. He won on motorcycles, single seaters, sports cars, big cars, small cars, circuit races, open road races... Started late after World War I and the had his careeer cut in half by World War II. Won a motorcycle race with two broken legs in casts, tied to his bike and helped at the start and finish by his mechanics to avoid his toppling over. Drove competitively till his last days, coughing up blood during races due to being ill with tuberculosis. A madman perhaps, but of unequalled passion! 

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

I just repeat my self since have not changed my mind.

 

Marc Duez.

 

2nd Belgium Formula Ford

2nd European Formula Ford

1st Belgian Rally Championship 3 times

5th European Rally Championship

1st Spa 24 hour 2 times

2nd Spa 24 hour 2 times

2nd Le Mans C2 class

2nd Le Mans GTP class

3nd Le Mans GTP class

 

 

Wins in:

Volkswagen Europa Pokal

Porsche 944 Turbo Cup

Belgian Touring car

Procar Belgium

FIA GT

 

A driver driving 'anything' who have been racing since 1977 and who are still in the occasional race, last one being Monte Carlo WRC this (now that) year.

 

'92, '95 '98 '99 Nurburgring 24hr winner too don't forget!! 10 times Belgian rally Champion too!! Marc Duez=Legend  

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

Well, seeing as there has been little mention of Johnny Cecotto!! I shall champion his cause!!

A Champion on Two Wheels as well as Four!! like the great John Surtees!! different eras perhaps?? but no!! not Cecotto, for all that happened, we were graced with one of finest touring car drivers of our time!!, call it fate or whatever you will, but he was one of few to hustle a Theodore to a points finish!! had it been a better car?? who knows??

 

But As a Touring Car Legend?? it speaks for itself, Sometimes in life you have to move on and i think Cecotto made all the right moves!! Carved a niche for himself!!

 

Welcome Mr Touring King!! With his almost Velvet Smooth driving style....... yes he might have been '89 Italian touring car champ, we'll forgive the '93 ADAC GT Cup... '94 ADAC Tourenwagen Cup. '98 STW Cup, V8Star Champ in 2001 and '02 also!!

 

So if your looking for Mr Versatile......... I give you Johnny Cecotto!!!

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I think in such discussions we have to account for the period the driver was active.  Back during Mario's time it was logistically much easier to jump around between different disciplines.  The depth of the fields everywhere was also much shallower back then, so it was much easier for a talented driver to succeed in an unfamiliar discipline, especially when they could arrange for top of the line equipment.  Racing was far less "solved" back then, so talent could more easily prevail over experience and specialized expertise.  In my opinion, what Kurt Busch accomplished at Indy 500 a couple of years ago is just as impressive as the various triple crowns and such.

[SKL]

Mario or AJ hands down...

[messy]

Mario Andretti. It has to be. Nobody else has had such success in such a breadth of different types of motorsport. Jim Clark would be next, for his success in F1, the BTCC and (relatively speaking) in rallying. Stirling Moss in the same bracket - wasn't Moss a full-time BTCC driver as recently as the early 80s? 

 

In more recent times, Stephane Sarrazin has done F1, the WEC (with success) and rallying, where he was very competitive on tarmac events for Subaru and even became a works Subaru driver for a while. Montoya has won in F1, Indycars and NASCAR, Shane Van Gisbergen won the Aussie V8 and Blancpain titles in the same year in 2016 which took quite some doing. Robert Kubica deserves a mention too for winning the WRC2 championship - if only he was more convincing when he stepped up to a full WRC car but unfortunately he kept crashing, or he might be on the list. 

 

The likes of Jacques Villeneuve and KImi Raikkonen tried to switch discipline but not with enough success. I know Kimi actually finished in the top ten in the WRC, but he was totally unconvincing in rallying for me. Dario Franchitti too, the least said about his season in NASCAR the better probably. 

Edited by messy, 15 February 2017 - 07:50.

[AlexLangheck]

Of current drivers Loeb & Dumas seem to try anything if it has 4 wheels and an engine.

[chunder27]

Jean Michel Bayle, world motocross champion, went to USA and won AMA Supercross at his first attempt (no mean feat as they are not really the same) and then tried his hand at GP bike racing.  Never quite won a race but was fast, got poles and fastest laps and ride 500's and 250's.

 

Didier de Radigues also ran two and 4 wheels but never single seaters much I reckon.

[PayasYouRace]

AJ Foyt, for both his achievements and his rotundness.

[Archer]

IMHO Nuvolari wins hands down. He not only was competitive in everything he drove bikes or all kinds of cars and races from hill climb, grandprix, resistance, regularity, dirt or asphalt. The most important was the way he won with usually uncompetitive material, broken legs, sputting blood, scaping from the hospital to race, driving with a wrench as he lost the steering wheel which had come off in his hands in Monaco, or how he won the Mille Miglia driving with the lights off in the night to have chance to overtake Varzi's car, the "impossible victory" in nurburgring in front of Hitler humilliating the Nazi regime when they put a huge amount of the goverment money in Mercedes and Auto Union to show the German superiority to the world. Nuvolari humiliated an army of imbatible Mercedes and Auto Union cars at their home race with a car with 110hp disadvantage.

 

 

Just look the happy Nazi faces, lol.

 

Even his last epic race was with 56 years old in the Mille Miglia, the day before of the race he had no car to compete, and Enzo Ferrari offered him a closed car to race, but he coundn't race with it because his breathing problems, so he choose other cabrio ferrari car. In Pescara he was leading, at Rome he was 12 minutes ahead, in Livorno 20 minutes, at Florence half an hour with a car that was breaking up. First it lost a mud guard, then the bonnet, the the bolts holding the seats in. Finally, in Reggio Emilia a broken leaf spring pivot blew away the hopes of an happy ending. At his 56's he was still a elite driver, able to do such a masterpiece of driving.

 

His racing record driving cars includes 92 wins (55 outright, 37 class), the European grand prix Championship in 1932 (the equivalent of a F1 world championship of the era), three Italian Championships (1932, 1935, 1936) and two International Speed records. In total, he recorded the fastest lap of a race no less than 101 times (42 in motorcycles, 59 whilst driving a racing car). Not only he was an allround winnner, he did epic and spectacular drives in everything he drove in a very long career until his 57's. Only god know how many more races he would have won if the WWII didn't cut in half his career.