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Drove a Hybrid. Impressed?


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#201 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 13:54

Taxi operators are such idiots. They are switching from LPG Fords to Prius in droves.

They are switching to ex Govt expensive toys. Hybrid Camrys for the most part.  Built with Kevs subsidys for fleet use. They are cheap to buy currently. I have seen a hybrid Camry with LPG stickers on the plates. Not sure what that is about,,, a hybrid on LPG with the electic motor?  Or the electrics have died and the engie was converted to gas.

The operators I am talking too are regretting buying them. but their is a lack of LPG Fords and Commys to be bought currently.

Remember 3/4 of the cabs in use are ex fleet, generally govt cars. The hybrid Camrys were subsidised for fleet use. New Camrys as cabs are still fleet use.



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#202 Canuck

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 15:05

Well having lived "this close" to the arctic circle for half my life, I can tell you without reservation, you have no idea what you're talking about with respect to summer sun. The further north you go, the more sun you have in the summer. You pay dearly in the winter mind you, but even at the 63rd parallel, the sun only bounces off the horizon before heading back up in summer.

#203 Canuck

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 15:09

There is a price premium on hybrid because it's still being sorted, and people are willing to pay to appear green. I bought a hybrid because my deep pockets and short arms saw a Lexus that my better half liked at a (used) price I found hard to argue. It was less than same-year local BMW X3 units and bigger inside.

#204 saudoso

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 23:47

I saw a fleet of hire cars (almost Taxis) near here that has switched from Commodores and Falcons to hybrid Camrys. Morons.


Lotsa hybrid Camrys as NYC cabs. Can't fit two big bags in the trunk. Peachy.

Tomrrow hitting another Avis for a full size. Will decline the Fusion this time.

#205 Wuzak

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 01:12

They are switching to ex Govt expensive toys. Hybrid Camrys for the most part.  Built with Kevs subsidys for fleet use. They are cheap to buy currently. I have seen a hybrid Camry with LPG stickers on the plates. Not sure what that is about,,, a hybrid on LPG with the electic motor?  Or the electrics have died and the engie was converted to gas.

The operators I am talking too are regretting buying them. but their is a lack of LPG Fords and Commys to be bought currently.

Remember 3/4 of the cabs in use are ex fleet, generally govt cars. The hybrid Camrys were subsidised for fleet use. New Camrys as cabs are still fleet use.

 

Kev's subsidies were the same subsidies that existed in car manufacturing in Australia for aeons. What he did was attach a condition that the fuel efficiency of locally built cars was to improve.

 

Toyota built to Camry hybrid.

Holden built the Cruze.

Ford was going to build the Focus, but changed their minds and did the 2l turbo Falcon (why didn't they do a Diesel Falcon?).



#206 Wuzak

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 01:22

Read my post re solar panels. On a commercial scale they seem to be a good thing. But 10000 tiny power stations generating with big subsidies is a rip off for the people who dont or cant play the game. A LOT of buildings are unsuitable with orientation to the sun, or being shadowed by other development. And many people dont want butt ugly panels on the front of their premises. Again an orientation problem.

 

The subsides weren't that big and only affected the purchase price - they are not on-going.

 

Depending on where you are, power companies offered very good feed-in tariffs - on a temporary basis. After a certain period of time these feed-in tariffs will drop back down to a fraction of the retail power price.

 

I do not believe that the solar panel subsidies affects other power users in any way. The subsidies came from governments (Federal and State) and not the electricity wholesalers or retailers. 

 

The solar panels may affect the price for other users by reducing demand for electricity, the retialer or wholesaler recovering income by increasing price.

 

The effect of the RET on electricity prices is due to large scale renewables - like wind power and large scale solar.

 

As for the longevity of solar panels, a local retailer is advertising their solar panels with a 30 year guarantee.



#207 Catalina Park

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 02:53

Remember 3/4 of the cabs in use are ex fleet, generally govt cars.

That might be the case in that small backwards town where you live but it is not the case in the rest of the world or even the rest of Australia.
For a bloke with 40+ years of experience in the motor industry you don't seem to know much.

#208 imaginesix

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 03:00

I am practical and think! I keep my eyes and ears open. Any purported saving from a hybrid car is offset by a far higher purchase price and maintenance costs. That is simple math by talking to Toyota workshop people.  I have worked in the motortrade for over 40 years. So have more idea than most experts who read an internet spiel!

 

Read my post re solar panels. On a commercial scale they seem to be a good thing. But 10000 tiny power stations generating with big subsidies is a rip off for the people who dont or cant play the game. A LOT of buildings are unsuitable with orientation to the sun, or being shadowed by other development. And many people dont want butt ugly panels on the front of their premises. Again an orientation problem.

That's all good and well for right now, regardless of how right or wrong you may be. But it definitely doesn't tell you anything about the future of these technologies as you purported to know in your earlier post. It suggests your views are based on assessments made one time and held forever, rather than re-examining them every once in a while. So that 40 years of experience kind of works against you, the way you make absolute statements about the future.



#209 Kelpiecross

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 04:33


LN - you are probably wasting your time - arguing with fervent Greenie/Leftie/Warmists is about as much use as arguing with a Creationist. You will never change their precious ridiculous beliefs.

#210 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 08:07

That might be the case in that small backwards town where you live but it is not the case in the rest of the world or even the rest of Australia.
For a bloke with 40+ years of experience in the motor industry you don't seem to know much.

Dont know about elsewhere. SA cabs have always been ex fleet cars for the 'private' owners. Yellow for instance buy new, with a subsidy. Though some of their cars are still subcontracters who buy used.

AFAIK the same happens in other cities too. Different states different rules both for vehicle age, color etc. The similarity though is tired rattle trap vehicles driven by these days mostly Eastern types. Last year with 4 cabs in one day I had a variety,, an absolutely buggered and dangerous 380 Mitsi, A Commodore, a Hyundia van and an XR6 Ford which was by far the nicest. It was clean, drove nice and the driver could drive! Pity about the yellow paint!

As Saudoso said, Camrys, worse Prius have bugger all boot space and with a Prius very little rear legroom either.

People I know out for an evening have sent away a Prius as they do not fit! Two middle aged couples.



#211 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 08:32

That's all good and well for right now, regardless of how right or wrong you may be. But it definitely doesn't tell you anything about the future of these technologies as you purported to know in your earlier post. It suggests your views are based on assessments made one time and held forever, rather than re-examining them every once in a while. So that 40 years of experience kind of works against you, the way you make absolute statements about the future.

WTF. I am talking about now. Where we live. I doubt a hybrid vehicle will get cheaper to maintain in the next decade. And that is still without the enviro concerns recycling the batteries and electric components. Or the added safety risk in an accident which is very real. Hybrid may be an acceptable city car,, but how many people can afford to maintain, yet alone purchase a city car, and one to go away on holidays in? I live in Australia where many travel long distances for work or pleasure. And there is not a repairer in every town to fix your toy city car. Unfortunatly there is often no repairers at all now.So you have a wait for a tilt tray and the expense of accomodation and trying to get home.

This too does apply to many Euro  cars too. Talking too an ex late larger VW owner today. It was a lovely car until it broke down half way to Sydney and had to be carried to Sydney for repairs. Only cost half the cars value in towing and repairs, extra travel costs and an air fare to Sydney to pick it up again. He now has a Commodore,,, it has been recalled twice but has yet to break down on two subsequent trips to Sydney. And does not use any more fuel.

 

And I am bloody certain the sun will still shine the same next century! And it will still be more economical to generate power with economies of scale. Wether they burn something, use nuclear to heat water or use big solar arrays. The ONLY reason these silly solar panels everywhere is the government will not, cannot spend the money to do it properly. And 'Green' initiaves that X amount of power has to be generated green. Wind, while viable is unreliable and too expensive. They operate all of those windfarms [scale of economy] with large subsidies. The said solar panels are subsidised. That is the reason South Australia, closely followed by the rest of the country now has the worlds most expensive electricity. And getting dearer.

And to build windfarms, manufacture solar panels has large envirmental concerns. As does burning coal ofcourse though that is FAR cheaper. Nuclear is by far the cleanest, until something goes wrong.. And all those waste issues! 



#212 gruntguru

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 11:06

WTF. I am talking about now. 

 

 

Electric/ hybrid vehicles will never make economic sense anywhere. 



#213 Wuzak

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 22:10

And 'Green' initiaves that X amount of power has to be generated green.


That is large scale power generation. It has nothing to do with rooftop solar.

 

Wind, while viable is unreliable and too expensive. They operate all of those windfarms [scale of economy] with large subsidies.


The wholesale price of wind power is cheaper than coal-fired power stations.

 

It may surprise you to know that fossil-fuel power stations are also subsidised. This government denies it, but it is set to be a topic at the G20 summit.

 

I have seen estimates of between $12b and $17b per year in subsidies for fossill fuel generators. From the federal government alone. Queensland is said to be tipping in around $8b per year.

 

 


And to build windfarms, manufacture solar panels has large envirmental concerns. As does burning coal ofcourse though that is FAR cheaper.
 
Coal is worse on so many levels. It is bad for the environment and has an affect on people's health. The rates of asthma, for example, are significantly higher in areas around power stations.
 
The other thing is that the windfarms and solar panels the environmental concerns are largely gone once they are installed. 
 
Coal powered stations, on the other hand, continue poluting their whole life.


#214 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 08:47

 

That is large scale power generation. It has nothing to do with rooftop solar.

 


The wholesale price of wind power is cheaper than coal-fired power stations.

 

It may surprise you to know that fossil-fuel power stations are also subsidised. This government denies it, but it is set to be a topic at the G20 summit.

 

I have seen estimates of between $12b and $17b per year in subsidies for fossill fuel generators. From the federal government alone. Queensland is said to be tipping in around $8b per year.

 

 

 
 
Coal is worse on so many levels. It is bad for the environment and has an affect on people's health. The rates of asthma, for example, are significantly higher in areas around power stations.
 
The other thing is that the windfarms and solar panels the environmental concerns are largely gone once they are installed. 
 
Coal powered stations, on the other hand, continue poluting their whole life.

 

Wind power is far more expensive than base load. That has been in the media often. And official Government releases too.Crowing how green they are, we are saving the earth by paying more for electricity!

The NEM means unless the rates are high the sails are not turning.  As for Green,, all that concrete? And not so quiet either. I have visited a few of the sites, woosh woosh woosh. And the ones at Editburg too had the occasional big CLUNK that you could feel through the ground. This at the one with all the info written up about the windfarm. Evidently the service life of these units is not great either,, so more big cranes replacing wind sails and those big generators. They are viable, BUT never at base load pricing. Again, we have lots, one of the reasons we have the WORLDS most expensive electricity. Oh and they only work when the wind is blowing. They do need a fair breeze to operate. If the wind is not there they do not produce!



#215 Wuzak

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 11:45

http://theconversati...will-work-13210

http://cleantechnica...wer-myth-video/

http://www.skeptical...eload-power.htm



#216 Wuzak

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 02:15

Wind power is far more expensive than base load. That has been in the media often. And official Government releases too.Crowing how green they are, we are saving the earth by paying more for electricity!

The NEM means unless the rates are high the sails are not turning.  As for Green,, all that concrete? And not so quiet either. I have visited a few of the sites, woosh woosh woosh. And the ones at Editburg too had the occasional big CLUNK that you could feel through the ground. This at the one with all the info written up about the windfarm. Evidently the service life of these units is not great either,, so more big cranes replacing wind sails and those big generators. They are viable, BUT never at base load pricing. Again, we have lots, one of the reasons we have the WORLDS most expensive electricity. Oh and they only work when the wind is blowing. They do need a fair breeze to operate. If the wind is not there they do not produce!

 

A study commissioned by the review into the Renewable Energy Target (a review which, predictably given the hand picked fossil fuel industry panel, recommended winding back or closing the RET) found that the RET cost the average household $50 extra per year.

 

Other studies have shown that the cost is about 4%. In the short term. In the longer term, those studies show that the RET will reduce power prices in 6-7 years.

 

Yes, there is lots of concrete in wind farm towers. But there is also plenty of concrete and steel in coal-fired power stations. And then you have to feed the coal-fired power stations coal for the rest of its life.

 

The service life of a wind turbine is ~20 years. After which its life may be extended by an overhaul.


Edited by Wuzak, 23 September 2014 - 02:20.


#217 seldo

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Posted Today, 13:05

Just got home yesterday from a 3 month trip through Europe and a couple of things that particularly impressed me were a) the obvious commitment to sustainable energy in some countries - particularly Denmark and Germany, and b) really, really impressed after a drive in a Teslar S.
In Germany, as you drive along, there is an obvious dramatic influx of solar installations on houses, barns, factories etc, and in some places you see hectares of solar panels, some fixed, some self-aiming, but it is not uncommon to see paddocks of a couple of hectares of just solar panels, or a huge factory with a similar footprint of solar panels alongside.
Hundreds/thousands? of wind-turbines as well, particularly in Denmark, which doesn't surprise me since most days it would blow a brown dog off a chain...
In Norway I was offered a drive of a Teslar S and, as an admitted sceptic, I have to say that I was impressed....ok, I was really blown away!
After almost 30 years in the car-business, I have driven or owned far more cars than most except those with similar background, and I have to say that I was very, very impressed with the Teslar.
I found it somewhat un-nerving in that there was zero aural feed-back, eerily silent, but that apart, it went like buggery, (try 0-100kph in 4.6sec!) loved the handling, I loved the style, and with some reservations about range (supposedly 300-550km) and enough accessible re-charge stations, I was really surprised and impressed. Really impressed!
In Norway, they are apparently the country's biggest selling car - which I find amazing, but aided enormously by huge government incentives, which range from ( so I am informed, so please don't jump on me if I err in detail) completely tax-free ( and in Norway this is huge!) free tolls, free parking, free ferries (again a huge issue in rural Norway) use of taxi-lanes, and the list goes on....
But, having driven one, I am almost embarrassed to admit, I have gone from a complete sceptic to a very reluctant, but none-the-less, resigned enthusiast.
To all my fellow sceptics, I say - Go and drive one!
As an old dinosaur, I can sniff the scent of an ice-age on the horizon....

Edited by seldo, Today, 13:08.


#218 desmo

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Posted Today, 15:25

I think you can pretty reliably judge the collective IQs of a country's energy planners based on the proportion of renewable capacities they are bringing online. Even notwithstanding climate change, relying on imported hydrocarbons to fuel one's energy needs is short sighted and likely to drive bad policies that extend beyond energy policy and right into foreign relations and long term economic viability. That Norway, the petrostate of the north, is obviously moving towards renewable infrastructures speaks quite well of their policy makers.

#219 Superbar

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Posted Today, 16:17

Nah, the thing about Norway and electric cars is it was mostly a case of politicians trying to boost domestic business: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Think_Global The current very pro-EV rules have a deadline and it remains to be seen what happens afterwards.