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MotoGP - should it be "spec" as Moto2 & 3?


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Poll: Spec MotoGP (42 member(s) have cast votes)

Should MotoGP be a "spec" series?

  1. Yes (5 votes [11.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.90%

  2. No (36 votes [85.71%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 85.71%

  3. Other (1 votes [2.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.38%

If yes above, how much "spec"?

  1. Use Open Class regulation (6 votes [14.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  2. Same as Moto2 or Moto3 (explain) (2 votes [4.76%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.76%

  3. I don't know the specifics (6 votes [14.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  4. I have my own idea which I describe in a post (5 votes [11.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.90%

  5. I voted "No" (23 votes [54.76%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 54.76%

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#1 ardbeg

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 18:32

I guess it is a bot the same as asking if F1 should be spec like GP2 and GP3, but I think there are some differences, mainly that there are no MotoGP teams that only do racing without manufacturing family transportation. Last team that did that was, I think, Kenny Roberts that folded 2007. Currently there are only 4 bikes capable of winning a GP, unless something out out f the ordinary happens. Last extraordinary time  was 2009 when Dovizioso won on... oh wait, he was on the factory Honda that race. Up until 2012 we had six bikes that could win, or rather five, when Stoner made some amazing performances on the Ducati, but Ducati has since then stepped down into the "Open" class and are no longer a force to be reckoned with. Next year Suzuki will enter again, but I doubt many will bet on them winning a GP first year.

Old days will never come back, but it is not only that there are only 4 bikes competing, I think another pr,problem is that the regulations and testing makes the relative performance of the bikes quite static over the season and that gives little hope for anyone who's hero, or team, turns out being behind at the start of the season.

 

Me myself is torn. I like development races, but when those races becomes so expensive that you only have two manufacturers that can afford it I think a border has been crossed.


Edited by ardbeg, 18 August 2014 - 16:32.


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#2 PokePoke

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 22:25

I watch motorbikes racing for racing, not for technology.... which harms spectacle (still remember 2 stroke era, even in MD times races were great). Electronics (TC) kill riders skills (BSB is amazing without that crap) and rise costs; new gearboxes are almost semi-automatic (cost fortune) etc. Since 4 strokes introduction costs rises from few mln $ for season to almost 60-70 mln (HRC, Yamaha), privaters lost chances to winning races or even podium because f_(* you peasants, you can't buy top bike (only rent for season for few bags of cash and in not the best spec).

 

Moto2  is great beacuse those bikes are a lot cheaper than old ones, When we see riders, we also see their skills and experience.

 

MGP is dying because costs are soo damn high and spectacle (reason why people watch motoracing) is mediocry. Why? Because technology.



#3 kenkip

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 11:19

II always wanted to ask this about Marc Marquez dominance,is it the bike or the rider?I really don't follow Moto Gp that closely to know comprehensively but surely that level of dominance needs superior machinery no matter the talent of the driver.



#4 Thomas99

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 11:26

I watch motorbikes racing for racing, not for technology.... which harms spectacle (still remember 2 stroke era, even in MD times races were great). Electronics (TC) kill riders skills (BSB is amazing without that crap) and rise costs; new gearboxes are almost semi-automatic (cost fortune) etc. Since 4 strokes introduction costs rises from few mln $ for season to almost 60-70 mln (HRC, Yamaha), privaters lost chances to winning races or even podium because f_(* you peasants, you can't buy top bike (only rent for season for few bags of cash and in not the best spec).

 

Moto2  is great beacuse those bikes are a lot cheaper than old ones, When we see riders, we also see their skills and experience.

 

MGP is dying because costs are soo damn high and spectacle (reason why people watch motoracing) is mediocry. Why? Because technology.

 

The second you introduce prototype anything the spending war begins



#5 rhukkas

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 12:27

Yeah, same as Moto2 which is absolutely enthralling at the moment. **sigh**

 

Multiple manufacturer racing is by far the msot popular form of racing. It allows so much more depth, interest. One weekend your favourite rider might be slow, but the nmext they could have something special and win. Nowt more boring than everyone on the same bike.



#6 ardbeg

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 13:29

 

 

Multiple manufacturer racing is by far the msot popular form of racing.

Is it? Maybe you include NASCAR and IndyCar in the "multiple manufacturer" category, but I count them as spec. I agree Moto2 might be a bit boring this year, but is that because of the bikes? You think it would be better if Rabat and Kallio had better bikes than the others? What bout Moto3 then? Not many fall asleep during those races...

 

What if Honda is even more dominant next year? I think F1 are having a similar problem, but at least there are more teams involved, not like MotoGP that has 3 manufactures making different specs for different teams and the performance is a direct result of the budget. What if Mercedes, in F1, sold their car to Sauber, Force India, Williams and Caterham but they get less horsepower and black box electronics which would make it impossible for them to ever beat the factory cars. What if all the other cars was built by Ferrari, on similar terms?



#7 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 13:55

I cant just vote no in the poll...

I'm not totally against it, though. The Honda/Yamaha show has grown a bit old and has no end in sight.
 

II always wanted to ask this about Marc Marquez dominance,is it the bike or the rider?I really don't follow Moto Gp that closely to know comprehensively but surely that level of dominance needs superior machinery no matter the talent of the driver.

Honda is probably the best bike by a small margin, but the level of dominance is definitely the rider. He might well go down as *the* greatest of all-time.

Edited by Seanspeed, 18 August 2014 - 13:56.


#8 Spillage

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:13

There's definitely a problem. The customer teams just can't compete with the manufacturers and that means that only three teams ever have a chance of winning the title. Every single title since 2001 has been won by Honda, Yamaha or Ducati. There is no indication that any customer team will be able to break this stranglehold.

Could a solution be to follow F1 and ensure that all teams produce their own chassis, or would that do more harm than good? Would the costs imposed on the smaller teams just cripple the grid? Perhaps if this was introduced in tandem with a budget cap it might prove a good way of increasing the excitement as well as breaking the Honda/Yamaha stranglehold.

#9 Nova

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:20

No, no and hell no.

 

In short. No.

 

I wouldn't watch a speck series. My main interest is Honda, more than any rider, and a speck series would kill the excitement totally.



#10 rhukkas

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:30

There's definitely a problem. The customer teams just can't compete with the manufacturers and that means that only three teams ever have a chance of winning the title. Every single title since 2001 has been won by Honda, Yamaha or Ducati. There is no indication that any customer team will be able to break this stranglehold.

Could a solution be to follow F1 and ensure that all teams produce their own chassis, or would that do more harm than good? Would the costs imposed on the smaller teams just cripple the grid? Perhaps if this was introduced in tandem with a budget cap it might prove a good way of increasing the excitement as well as breaking the Honda/Yamaha stranglehold.

 

It's always been the case that only a few teams have a chance of winning. It's exactly the same in spec series too.



#11 Spillage

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:50

It's always been the case that only a few teams have a chance of winning. It's exactly the same in spec series too.

I'm not advocating a spec series. Quite the reverse. An end to customer teams and accompanying budget cap to restrain the big boys might mean that sure, one or two teams may dominate individual seasons, but they would find it very hard to do so for a decade.

#12 Atreiu

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 14:51

II always wanted to ask this about Marc Marquez dominance,is it the bike or the rider?I really don't follow Moto Gp that closely to know comprehensively but surely that level of dominance needs superior machinery no matter the talent of the driver.

 

Totally the rider. There has been very little between Honda and Yamaha since 2013. Pedrosa's and Lorenzo's results corroborate it.



#13 ardbeg

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 15:15

I'm not advocating a spec series. Quite the reverse. An end to customer teams and accompanying budget cap to restrain the big boys might mean that sure, one or two teams may dominate individual seasons, but they would find it very hard to do so for a decade.

Budget caps can not work, it is impossible. Only thing a budget cap would do is to reduce the transparency. There are no moral rules that applies to corporations.



#14 ardbeg

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 15:17

It's always been the case that only a few teams have a chance of winning. It's exactly the same in spec series too.

That is not true.



#15 DS27

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 15:21

No, but unfortunately the poll doesn't let you vote just NO.

#16 ardbeg

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 15:27

No, but unfortunately the poll doesn't let you vote just NO.

Oh, fixing it



#17 chunder27

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 15:33

Sorry OP, it HAS always been the case that only a few bikes have a chance of winning.

 

Even in spec series like Moto2, the same teams win most of the races, Moriwaki, Suter Kalex Speed up over many years. In recent years, Marquez, Pons and VDS have won most races lets face it.

 

This year Moto2 is as dull as dishwater, for some reason VDS are able to get their bikes to work better than everyone else, I don't know why. I would simply say they spend a great deal of money getting everything right, it's basically a MotoGP team. Their riders are nothing special, Kallio is a proven rider but nothing flash, and Rabat is OK without being exceptional, yet they get thier bikes to work very well.

 

Pons must ahve similar budget, experience and arguably better riders, but struggle far more.

 

The biggest difference now is that as far as we know engines are equal.

 

Even the latter times of 125 and 250 this was never the case, Terol won his title on a rocketship special Aspar Aprilia none else had, totally undeserved and that is now being shown up as a false title as he is about as out of his depth as any rider I have seen for years despite a decent 2013.

 

Spec series never work, as you can't spec budget. F3000 was supposed to be spec but Plus, DSM, Draco always won coz they spent more on testing, parts lifing etc. It rarely works.

 

Moto3 works now because it is still new, the bikes are new, compare a 2014 Honda to a 2012 one, probably 5 seconds a lap faster. That will reach a peak soon and then we will be in the same boat as Moto2.

 

I do think Moto2 should allow differnet manufacturers, maybe one or two more to make the competition more varied like Moto3, but again, it's more expense for them and teams. But i do feel that development has readched something of a peak in Moto2, hence small margins now, and VDS manage to find it week on week.

 

No way should GP be a spec class, manufacturers would walk.



#18 Jimisgod

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 15:50

Moto3 is being dominated by Honda and KTM.

Top 8 drivers in one of those bikes, all races won in them too.

#19 ardbeg

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 16:31

Moto3 is being dominated by Honda and KTM.

Top 8 drivers in one of those bikes, all races won in them too.

...but many different teams and, more importantly, many different drivers.



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#20 chunder27

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 16:44

Lol, ther are only 3 manufacturers of note in Moto3, so it being "dominated" by two of them is hardly a bad thing!

 

The issue in MotoGP is and always has been apart from a few years, the two HRC and YRT factory teams dominate.

 

The only time this has not really bene a bad thing is when you had Suzuki as a challenger with Schwantz then Beattie and some years in 4 stroke, and also Cagiva in 92-94. 

 

Latter 2 stroke years, yu had Red Bull and Marlboro Yamaha winning, Suzuki winning, Repsol Honda, Nastro Azzuro Honda, Atena 3 Yamaha, West/Emerson Pons Honda, Some tracks where Aprilia dn Honda twins were quick, that was hte nearest we got to great.

And yet Julian Ryder tells us in his column it was the worst years for racing as there was no domination!  What a load of total garbage you silly man.



#21 DrProzac

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 17:06

MotoGP is bike racing's F1, it can't be spec.



#22 ardbeg

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 10:39

MotoGP is bike racing's F1, it can't be spec.

Why not? Both F1 and MotoGP has very tight rules that make them almost "spec". Both F1 and MotoGP has some small slots where the teams can make a difference. Problem, as I see it, is that those slots are extremely expensive to explore and only a few can afford it. Any team, both in MotoGP and in F1, could make a vehicle that is faster than the current one if there was no regulations so what is this relative freedom they have really worth?

Another problem is that the regulation themselves also creates a very high treshhold for anyone that wants to enter, so new entries is rare.

Currently we have a high threshold to get started and a development slot that is rather tiny but extremely expensive. I don't think that is the way for the future



#23 Atreiu

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 14:16

Honda would leave if it ever became too spec.



#24 ardbeg

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 14:27

Honda would leave if it ever became too spec.

Would it matter?

Here is a list of some manufacturers not in MotoGP:
 

Argentina

 

Austria Bangladesh Belarus Brazil China Colombia Czech Republic France Germany Greece India Italy Japan

 

South Korea Malaysia Mexico Pakistan Portugal Russia Slovenia Spain Taiwan
  • Kymco
  • SYM
  • Hartford Industrial(Hartford Motors)
Turkey United Kingdom

Arial

United States

#25 Option1

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 16:36

This is a joke poll, right?

Someone even used Moto2 as the comparison with the implication that it was better racing than MotoGP.  Moto2 is the laughing stock of the MotoGP paddock at the moment - it's that boring.  People enjoy Moto3, then wander off to find something else to do and come back for MotoGP.

 

Silliest suggestion I've seen since F1 double points and standing starts.  Could anyone supporting this idea please refrain from breeding.

 

Neil



#26 ardbeg

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 17:12

This is a joke poll, right?

Someone even used Moto2 as the comparison with the implication that it was better racing than MotoGP.  Moto2 is the laughing stock of the MotoGP paddock at the moment - it's that boring.  People enjoy Moto3, then wander off to find something else to do and come back for MotoGP.

 

Silliest suggestion I've seen since F1 double points and standing starts.  Could anyone supporting this idea please refrain from breeding.

 

Neil

So you voted "No"?



#27 Option1

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 17:26

So you voted "No"?

Well, yes I voted No*.  But just saying that would be no where near as much fun. :D

 

Neil

 

*  Ha!  Take that English language.


Edited by Option1, 19 August 2014 - 17:27.


#28 DrProzac

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 18:03

Why not? Both F1 and MotoGP has very tight rules that make them almost "spec". Both F1 and MotoGP has some small slots where the teams can make a difference. Problem, as I see it, is that those slots are extremely expensive to explore and only a few can afford it. Any team, both in MotoGP and in F1, could make a vehicle that is faster than the current one if there was no regulations so what is this relative freedom they have really worth?

Another problem is that the regulation themselves also creates a very high treshhold for anyone that wants to enter, so new entries is rare.

Currently we have a high threshold to get started and a development slot that is rather tiny but extremely expensive. I don't think that is the way for the future

 

Why? Because it wouldn't be the same. Different cars and competition between their manufacturers is one of core fundamentals of F1. The same applies to MGP (though I don't know it's history as well as F1's, so maybe there are some major differences?).

 

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean that rules should never be changed nor that there's no room for improvement. As for tight technical regulations that make cars (or bikes) almost spec, i think it's a bad thing. They should allow more freedom (to reasonable extent). It's not easy to make a set of rules that would work perfectly, unfortunately.

 

The issues you've described are a real problem that should be addressed. But changing those series into spec ones isn't a good solution.


Edited by DrProzac, 19 August 2014 - 18:05.


#29 ardbeg

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 19:13

Why? Because it wouldn't be the same. Different cars and competition between their manufacturers is one of core fundamentals of F1. The same applies to MGP (though I don't know it's history as well as F1's, so maybe there are some major differences?).

 

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean that rules should never be changed nor that there's no room for improvement. As for tight technical regulations that make cars (or bikes) almost spec, i think it's a bad thing. They should allow more freedom (to reasonable extent). It's not easy to make a set of rules that would work perfectly, unfortunately.

 

The issues you've described are a real problem that should be addressed. But changing those series into spec ones isn't a good solution.

Problem, as I see it, is that we only have two manufacturers competing the top class, 4 bikes, rest are there to fill up the grid. Yes, Suzuki will try again next year and that is good but it is not enough. No, I do not count Ducati as part of the top class because they have themselves put their team in the Open Class and the Tech 3 Yamahas and LCR Hondas are never going to be a match for the factory teams.

Three classes in one. Actually four but I do not think anyone is racing the "Factory with concessions" category.

So we have some teams running with 20 liters of fuel, some have 24. Some can change the engine 5 times during a season, others 12. Some have control hardware, others can modify it.

MotoGP is nothing like F1.
 



#30 chunder27

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 19:16

Top class bike racing has always been the same

 

What do yoou want?  5 or 6 different bikes capable of winning?  Never going to happen unless you live in utopia!

 

The best you had was 1999,2000,2001. Lots of decent teams on factory bikes, and then maybe early 4 stroke days when everyone was learning.

 

Be patient, 2016 rules are going to shake things up a lot

 

No need to panic, and besides in all honesty the actual racing int he top class has been garbage with few exceptions for years!



#31 RedRabbit

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 20:15

Definitely not, but they need to get rid of some of the aids for riders. While GPS based traction control is incredible tech, it's application in the real world is useless. No maps are accurate enough for it to be truly useful.

 

Bike racing development should be about great engine and chassis. Focus on that and let the riders sort out the rest.



#32 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 12:23

when those races becomes so expensive that you only have two manufacturers that can afford it I think a border has been crossed.

 

Hardly Honda, Yamaha (& Suzuka) deserve their positions as the leading volume-wise manufacturers of motorcylces in the world, and being willing to spend money on motorcycle racing for the former two.

 

If Ducati, KTM, Aprillia, Suzuki, Kawasaki etc are crap at circuit road racing then they are crap at circuit road racing.  End of story.


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 20 August 2014 - 12:26.


#33 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 13:37

II always wanted to ask this about Marc Marquez dominance,is it the bike or the rider?I really don't follow Moto Gp that closely to know comprehensively but surely that level of dominance needs superior machinery no matter the talent of the driver.

If you have a bike whose handling characteristics perfectly matches a rider riding characteristics, is it the bike or the rider that is making the difference?



#34 chunder27

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 13:48

I do not think the Honda matches Marquez much at all, but the team hvae made it.

 

All that has happened is that technically the HRC team are able to make the bike handle like a Moto2 bike, something that Lorenzo, Rossi, Stoner, Pedrosa would not have asked for.

 

That is all, they are just matching the bike to their riders skills, just like other great teams have done in the past.

 

it just so happens that with all the aids used now Marquez has not had to change much, as other riders did in the past, he has all the aids, tricks to allow him to ride at that limit instead of serving any kind of appreneticeship as riders used to have to do previously, even as recently as Lorenzo.

 

For me, him doing this removes the mystique of a 500, or a MotoGP bike, blokes having to get used to engne braking after years on 2 strokes, getting arm pump coz they have to blip the throttle, getting used a 180hp 2000rpm powerband.

 

He is amazing, but it makes it all look too easy and for me takes the fear away. All that learning is gone, hence a guy like this can jump on a bike and ride it like a Suter.



#35 ardbeg

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 20:45

If you have a bike whose handling characteristics perfectly matches a rider riding characteristics, is it the bike or the rider that is making the difference?

That was said often about Stoner and his Ducati.