45 replies to this topic

[bourbon]

Article lost in the purge:  According to Luca in his recent interview, Ferrari is overhauling the infrastructure at Ferrari, which includes making in-depth changes on both the organizational side and in Ferrari's approach and the culture, in the hope that it will assist the drivers to embark on a winning cycle.  Despite the points disparity between the drivers, Luca asserts that Ferrari is lucky to have two great champions who are on board with working toward this goal. 

 

http://www.formula1....14/8/16204.html

 

Edited by bourbon, 17 August 2014 - 22:51.

[Watkins74]

^

I was in firmly in the camp that thought Ferrari needed to make changes. The downside is that I don't think with all these major changes that 2015 will be all that great of a year for Kimi/Fernando.

[fque]

Organisational/cultural changes don't happen overnight, especially in big ones.

But it's quite easy to undo them over a few seasons in the wrong hands. 

[f1RacingForever]

They've been at this for a while now ever since fry got there. I don't see why they can not succeed given their resources and personnel available to them . They have everything a team needs to succeed so it's just a matter of making good use of it.

[Gorma]

^

I was in firmly in the camp that thought Ferrari needed to make changes. The downside is that I don't think with all these major changes that 2015 will be all that great of a year for Kimi/Fernando.

I don't think it can get any worse.

[aray]

I don't think it can get any worse.

it can and perhaps it will,if Alonso leaves...

[Gorma]

it can and perhaps it will,if Alonso leaves...

I doubt that it will. It just takes one horrible season like this so that everyone can see that something is fundamentally wrong. 

[oetzi]

it can and perhaps it will,if Alonso leaves...

There's no sign that Alonso has made a positive contribution to Ferrari's corporate culture or development procedures since he joined the team. Why would they get worse if he left?

[kosmos]

There's no sign that Alonso has made a positive contribution to Ferrari's corporate culture or development procedures since he joined the team. Why would they get worse if he left?

 

And yet, Piero Ferrari wants him to finish his career in Ferrari. I bet he know more than you of what Alonso do or don't do.

 

http://motorsport.ne...rari,80408.html

[slideways]

I expect an upswing in performance corresponding directly to LDM's resignation. Which for emotive and cultural reasons of course will never happen.

[oetzi]

And yet, Piero Ferrari wants him to finish his career in Ferrari. I bet he know more than you of what Alonso do or don't do.

 

http://motorsport.ne...rari,80408.html

And yet, none of that suggests he's added anything to either the corporate culture or the development of the car.

[DavidHeath461]

There's no sign that Alonso has made a positive contribution to Ferrari's corporate culture or development procedures since he joined the team. Why would they get worse if he left?

Imagine Ferrari with Kimi and Massa in the last 4 years. They
Wouldn't have won a race since 2010.

[OvDrone]

I hope they are finally waking up.

[kosmos]

And yet, none of that suggests he's added anything to either the corporate culture or the development of the car.

 

I doubt you or me will know about that kind of stuff, only the people that work in Ferrari knows, only one fact remains, Ferrari thinks Alonso is the best and want to retain him, the rest is bla bla bla.

[Sennasational]

Imagine Ferrari with Kimi and Massa in the last 4 years. They
Wouldn't have won a race since 2010.

 

This. But, that could have been a positive thing for Ferrari - they might have put more effort into getting their crap together faster if they didn't have a driver who managed to somewhat hide how hideously average the cars have been.

 

It's Alonso's job to drive the car. He isn't running the development program (though I'm sure he has input), he doesn't design the car and he most certainly isn't resposnible for the 'corporate culture' at Ferrari. As far as what he is employed to do, he has flattered Ferrari for several years - moreso than any driver of any team, I'd say.

 

Just like McLaren, Ferrari need to get their act together. Hopefully they will, but I'm not so sure. Sometimes an 'overhaul' is just passing the blame on to people you can get rid of. It could be smoke and mirrors, or it could be them waking up, time will tell.

[bourbon]

I think the changes that are being made are with an eye to the future, independent of who the drivers are.  The idea is to build an infrastructure that will enable the team to work more effectively and efficiently in the factory, offices and garage.  Without knowing the issues we cannot begin to know what changes are being made, but in the end, hopefully it will work to make the team more competitive.  The Ferrari drivers will retire next among the present lot on the grid, so this is not just addressing the present putting in place a system that can serve as an evolving foundation for the next 10-15 or more years

Edited by bourbon, 18 August 2014 - 11:27.

[Gorma]

Imagine Ferrari with Kimi and Massa in the last 4 years. They
Wouldn't have won a race since 2010.

Yet both came closer to a title with Ferrari than Alonso ever did. Go figure.

[Sennasational]

I think the changes that are being made are with an eye to the future, independent of who the drivers are.  The idea is to build an infrastructure that will enable the team to work more effectively and efficiently in the factory, offices and garage.  Without knowing the issues we cannot begin to know what changes are being made, but in the end, hopefully it will work to make the team more competitive.  The Ferrari drivers will retire next among the present lot on the grid, so this is not just addressing the present putting in place a system that can serve as an evolving foundation for the next 10-15 or more years.

 

I agree, but it's more comforting to hear that a team is adressing specific issues it has found within itself. A complete overhaul suggests more that they don't know what the issues are, but realize that they exist and need to at least appear to be working towards fixing things. I could be wrong, but I've seen more 'overhauls' that are excercises in blame passing and excuse making than that of actual positive progression and improvement.

 

I hope Ferrari get it right, but first they need to know exactly why it's wrong.

[oetzi]

I doubt you or me will know about that kind of stuff, only the people that work in Ferrari knows, only one fact remains, Ferrari thinks Alonso is the best and want to retain him, the rest is bla bla bla.

I'm talking about the subject of the thread. Would be nice if others could do the same.

Edited by oetzi, 18 August 2014 - 11:27.

[bourbon]

I agree, but it's more comforting to hear that a team is adressing specific issues it has found within itself. A complete overhaul suggests more that they don't know what the issues are, but realize that they exist and need to at least appear to be working towards fixing things. I could be wrong, but I've seen more 'overhauls' that are excercises in blame passing and excuse making than that of actual positive progression and improvement.

 

I hope Ferrari get it right, but first they need to know exactly why it's wrong.

 

Well it could be a result of Allison presenting various issues and asking for efficiencies and modifying processes for the purpose of streamlining them or making them more effective or delivery more rapid  - that kind of thing.  Or it could be the influence of another, but along the same lines.  I agree that sometimes these things turn out to be an exercise in verbiage and futility, but Ferrari has done enough firing, replacing and hiring of late to reasonably assume there have been fresh eyes on the situation and  fresh suggestions  - and that they are implementing change accordingly.  Hopefully it works out for them sooner rather than later.

Edited by bourbon, 18 August 2014 - 11:40.

[Owen]

This guy sounds pretty annoyed.

http://www.planetf1....-out-at-Ferrari

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Hire more non Italians.

No more 3 hour 'power' lunches.

A stronger chain of command

[aditya-now]

And yet, Piero Ferrari wants him to finish his career in Ferrari. I bet he know more than you of what Alonso do or don't do.

 

http://motorsport.ne...rari,80408.html

 

It sounds almost as if Piero was pleading for Fernando to stay. Interesting...

[Suntrek]

There's no sign that Alonso has made a positive contribution to Ferrari's corporate culture or development procedures since he joined the team. Why would they get worse if he left?

 

No, I'm pretty sure you are right there. He hasn't and he won't.

 

However, that's not his job. His job is to get results. And so far, he's done the job at hand.

 

I think the poster mixed up relative performance of driver contra Ferrari collar performance issues.

[Suntrek]

Well it could be a result of Allison presenting various issues and asking for efficiencies and modifying processes for the purpose of streamlining them or making them more effective or delivery more rapid  - that kind of thing.  Or it could be the influence of another, but along the same lines.  I agree that sometimes these things turn out to be an exercise in verbiage and futility, but Ferrari has done enough firing, replacing and hiring of late to reasonably assume there have been fresh eyes on the situation and  fresh suggestions  - and that they are implementing change accordingly.  Hopefully it works out for them sooner rather than later.

 

I hope so too. Ferrari needs two drivers performing, not only one.

 

And I also certainly hope Allison will get his voice heard if he's asked for more efficency and streamlining in Ferrari camp  (I recall Alonso asking the same)

[DavidHeath461]

Yet both came closer to a title with Ferrari than Alonso ever did. Go figure.

Thanks for that Gorma. But it's not really relevant to this discussion. Those titles were won in a different era of cars.

[DavidHeath461]

This. But, that could have been a positive thing for Ferrari - they might have put more effort into getting their crap together faster if they didn't have a driver who managed to somewhat hide how hideously average the cars have been.

It's Alonso's job to drive the car. He isn't running the development program (though I'm sure he has input), he doesn't design the car and he most certainly isn't resposnible for the 'corporate culture' at Ferrari. As far as what he is employed to do, he has flattered Ferrari for several years - moreso than any driver of any team, I'd say.

Just like McLaren, Ferrari need to get their act together. Hopefully they will, but I'm not so sure. Sometimes an 'overhaul' is just passing the blame on to people you can get rid of. It could be smoke and mirrors, or it could be them waking up, time will tell.

Alarm bells should have been ringing in Maranello at the start of 2011 when they were a second off the pace. Same goes for 2012 where they started off very badly.

Costa was fires and fry came in and told us that he was revolutionising all Ferrari's tools. Yet since then, no progress has been made.

[beute]

Imagine Ferrari with Kimi and Massa in the last 4 years. They
Wouldn't have won a race since 2010.

Kimi won in the F60.

Ruling out victories for the period after 2010 is asinine, but what's to expect from people that argue as if the current situation has any bearing on what would've happened in the past 4 years.

 

as for the topic:

I hope "change" in culture means the removal of culture...

Culture is something that overwrites/replaces certain rational methodologies. Why is smoking pot illegal but drinking alcohol is fine? often you hear "herp derp it's our culture" or other crap based on culture/tradition, when in truth there is just no scientific or moral reason as to why any of the two substances should be illegal.

rational and empirical thinking is all that is needed.(apart from money of course)

[Buttoneer]

I just want to point out that the thread was split from the Alonso v Raikkonen thread and contains a few orphaned statements from there.  It was split because it has little to do with the relative performance of the drivers but mainly because I thought people other than the small sub-set of posters who contribute to the other thread might have something to say on the matter.

 

Try and keep the discussion focussed on Luca's comments.

[Reinmuster]

Culture will change when Luca leaving the team.

[oetzi]

No, I'm pretty sure you are right there. He hasn't and he won't.

 

However, that's not his job. His job is to get results. And so far, he's done the job at hand.

 

I think the poster mixed up relative performance of driver contra Ferrari collar performance issues.

You may think he got mixed up. I couldn't possibly comment.

[garagetinkerer]

So we are trying to go back to the days of Ferrari under Todt? Irony of it all is delicious

[bourbon]

In the sense that the Todt days were a 'working formula' I would say yes indeed.

 

And yes, it is rather ironic. 

[blub]

Obviously there is much to learn from the words of the engine guy who just left Ferrari. What LDM said is almost a reaction to what we just learned, saying that all that bad stuff will end. It took a firing to get the truth in front of the guy who stopped the tools from being updated, that would be LDM.

To me, the culture issue is about motor sport not Ferrari, the team must value those things that bring the rewards to Ferrari, putting points on the board, racing for wins, NOT efficiencies of aero or heat etc, points and wins not tail chasing. I am guessing its easy for a team like Ferrari to lose site of the central values of racing, at this point it seems like F1 is blindly racing towards non sensical technical pursuits, not points. Of course its all done in the name of getting points but its really just going to 11 when everyone else is focused on something called 10, same thing different goal different culture. I believe it is this reason McLaren has completely lost it. McLaren is a giant corporation within F1 and with that comes office politics, not racing, getting your group to win all the battles within the team, aero over mechanical etc. Who is King of speed, who gets the complex new age F1 cars are now entering etc. The in house winner of those battles loses on the trace every single race. Its a cultural thing. I think Ferrari has these problems too.

Judging from the what the engine guy said, Ferrari is in much deeper trouble then I thought. I look at McLaren last year (an abomination) and I look at them this year and I sense they feel things are going on the right path, its abominate II and they don't seem to notice. Next years Ferrari might be just the same, there is no reason to believe that Ferrari will make any greater improvement from this year then McLaren did from last year.

In truth, it has become clear every engine manufacturer is changing their engine to be just like the Mercedes engine, so maybe there is hope for greater speed, but its not like Mercedes is bringing a 2014 engine to the 2015 season, they will still have an advantage. Maybe Ferrari will do better next year, but I don't see the WCC or WDC coming one year out from this wreckage. Lets watch for the rest of the season, if Ferrari get more points on average then they did in the first half maybe the culture has changed, after all this kind of cultural shift can happen in a millisecond.

[George Costanza]

Yet both came closer to a title with Ferrari than Alonso ever did. Go figure.

 

Not quite true.... 2012 rings a bell? Fred just lost by three points.... All he had do was win the race or Seb to drop back; and Brazil 2012 was one heck of example.

[garagetinkerer]

Obviously there is much to learn from the words of the engine guy who just left Ferrari. What LDM said is almost a reaction to what we just learned, saying that all that bad stuff will end. It took a firing to get the truth in front of the guy who stopped the tools from being updated, that would be LDM.

To me, the culture issue is about motor sport not Ferrari, the team must value those things that bring the rewards to Ferrari, putting points on the board, racing for wins, NOT efficiencies of aero or heat etc, points and wins not tail chasing. I am guessing its easy for a team like Ferrari to lose site of the central values of racing, at this point it seems like F1 is blindly racing towards non sensical technical pursuits, not points. Of course its all done in the name of getting points but its really just going to 11 when everyone else is focused on something called 10, same thing different goal different culture. I believe it is this reason McLaren has completely lost it. McLaren is a giant corporation within F1 and with that comes office politics, not racing, getting your group to win all the battles within the team, aero over mechanical etc. Who is King of speed, who gets the complex new age F1 cars are now entering etc. The in house winner of those battles loses on the trace every single race. Its a cultural thing. I think Ferrari has these problems too.

Judging from the what the engine guy said, Ferrari is in much deeper trouble then I thought. I look at McLaren last year (an abomination) and I look at them this year and I sense they feel things are going on the right path, its abominate II and they don't seem to notice. Next years Ferrari might be just the same, there is no reason to believe that Ferrari will make any greater improvement from this year then McLaren did from last year.

In truth, it has become clear every engine manufacturer is changing their engine to be just like the Mercedes engine, so maybe there is hope for greater speed, but its not like Mercedes is bringing a 2014 engine to the 2015 season, they will still have an advantage. Maybe Ferrari will do better next year, but I don't see the WCC or WDC coming one year out from this wreckage. Lets watch for the rest of the season, if Ferrari get more points on average then they did in the first half maybe the culture has changed, after all this kind of cultural shift can happen in a millisecond.

Ahem, there was something said by Costa and that was before anything was said by Marmorini. In my very humble opinion, that was constructive criticism, pointing out shortcomings, which we all knew about for 3-4 years now. This was not the first time, a poor wind tunnel came into focus, nor did the other things. Marmorini, he was just whinging, like we do on the forums (may be slightly better). Do you sincerely think Marmorini was not at all in control? I mean he could have possibly proposed two solutions. For whatever it is worth, he got something very right, and got something very wrong. I'll give him credit for that what he got right. Engine unlike Renault and Mercedes units, it doesn't need protective shrouding, so allowed for better packaging before the whinging duo of Renault and Mercedes threw a spanner in Ferrari's works. What he got wrong was that the engine was more geared towards efficiency. Criticising management? Check. Criticising tools? Check! Criticising colleagues? Check! This was in rather poor form from Marmorini. Sometimes, **** happens. You just own upto your end, and move along. In contrast to rather willingly volunteering Marmorini, there was Costa, who kept silent all this while. Only when he was asked a question did he answer.

[Gorma]

Not quite true.... 2012 rings a bell? Fred just lost by three points.... All he had do was win the race or Seb to drop back; and Brazil 2012 was one heck of example.

? Felipe Massa lost by one point in 2008 and it was the old points system. 

[KirilVarbanov]

What is absolutely certain is that figures higher than LdM have started to lose patience. It's not good for the business to associate Ferrari with a constantly losing team. Therefore the storm at Maranello. 
I kinda have the feeling, however, that such reorganizations are being announced every year after the Kimi title with no visible result whatsoever. Well, apart from sacking Aldo Costa and Luca Marmorini. And Stefano Domenicali. And kicking Kimi in the nuts. Just to have him back to save the day. And the late investment in modern tools, such as wind tunnel. 
To me, all these decisions have common denominator. 

[bourbon]

What is absolutely certain is that figures higher than LdM have started to lose patience. It's not good for the business to associate Ferrari with a constantly losing team. Therefore the storm at Maranello. 
I kinda have the feeling, however, that such reorganizations are being announced every year after the Kimi title with no visible result whatsoever. Well, apart from sacking Aldo Costa and Luca Marmorini. And Stefano Domenicali. And kicking Kimi in the nuts. Just to have him back to save the day. And the late investment in modern tools, such as wind tunnel. 
To me, all these decisions have common denominator. 

 

I agree - it is a lack of championships that drives these continual "overhauls", imo.  But this one is purportedly major and it is the first time I have heard them speak about a company cultural change recently.  Perhaps they are listening more closely to some of the new engineer arrivals who have had some success elsewhere. 

Edited by bourbon, 19 August 2014 - 10:14.

[AlexS]

Imagine Ferrari with Kimi and Massa in the last 4 years. They
Wouldn't have won a race since 2010.

 

 

No fault of Alonso but i think the change would start earlier without him : read Domenicali would be out  long ago without Alonso.

 

Alonso that have been saving Domenicali all this time.

Edited by AlexS, 19 August 2014 - 10:29.

[sopa]

There's no sign that Alonso has made a positive contribution to Ferrari's corporate culture or development procedures since he joined the team. Why would they get worse if he left?

 

If Ferrari line-up during 2010-2014 was Massa-Raikkonen, then what? Obviously as drivers they would have performed worse, but would it have had any positive influence on the car development/corporate culture? Since the team would not have been so much built around one driver and the competition athmosphere would have felt "more free". But is there any possible way of suggesting that with Massa-Raikkonen Ferrari would have developed cars better, would have hired better technical staff, and ultimately overcome the results they achieved with Alonso? Or would all of 2010-2014 been like 2009 without the title challenges of 2010 and 2012?

[sopa]

Regarding Luca's comments. I thought he tried to "overhaul" at least some of the culture already in 2011 by sacking Aldo Costa. Luca may think big changes are needed, but I am not entirely convinced he would guide them in the right way. Perhaps a newer and fresher leader would be needed to undergo a proper and modern overhaul? Then again as always, easy to say, hard to do.

[DavidHeath461]

If Ferrari line-up during 2010-2014 was Massa-Raikkonen, then what? Obviously as drivers they would have performed worse, but would it have had any positive influence on the car development/corporate culture? Since the team would not have been so much built around one driver and the competition athmosphere would have felt "more free". But is there any possible way of suggesting that with Massa-Raikkonen Ferrari would have developed cars better, would have hired better technical staff, and ultimately overcome the results they achieved with Alonso? Or would all of 2010-2014 been like 2009 without the title challenges of 2010 and 2012?

Seeing as Massa/Kimi don't bring developments to the car or hire new staff, we can conclude that nothing would have changed.

[DavidHeath461]

No fault of Alonso but i think the change would start earlier without him : read Domenicali would be out long ago without Alonso.

Alonso that have been saving Domenicali all this time.

I are where u are coming from but Ferrari's problems were plainly obvious in 2011 and 2012. They made changes but those don't seem to have worked.

[sopa]

Seeing as Massa/Kimi don't bring developments to the car or hire new staff, we can conclude that nothing would have changed.

 

Guess so. The main possible way of arguing is that without 2010 title challenge (with Alonso) Ferrari would have acted earlier. They would not have sacked Aldo Costa in 2011, but already 2010. And so on. So all of the reforming process would have been brought to earlier time.

[topical]

Just when you think things can't get more chaotic and clueless at Ferrari . . . this team is back to where they were in the early 90s, running round like a headless chicken. Alonso has to get out NOW while he still has 2-3 good years left in him.