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Max Verstappen to replace Vergne at Toro Rosso for 2015


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#951 Autodromo

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Posted 15 May 2023 - 15:54

If someone said at the end of 2006 that Alonso would never win another title you would have thought them to be crazy .... and he is still as a great a driver as he was when he was winning titles (and in some ways he is even better) .... so lets not count chickens with MV ... and lets not place the bar ridiculously high for him for the rest of his career either.

 

As a fan ... I just am glad I get to watch him do his thing .... when he is finished, he will end with the stats he ends up with - and I agree with Austin... that the stats are not even close to the most important thing.

 

A kid joining F1 at age 16 and being safe and level headed is an absolute miracle  .... he didnt burn out - he didnt make a wrong turn in life - he didnt get blinded by fame - he didnt end up in cars that sucked and lose motivation - he didnt sign a bad contract - he didnt fall out with his dad - he didnt hookup with the wrong girl .... a millions things could have gone wrong .... but here he is winning races and titles ...  people are now behaving like this is only to be expected ..... they took the wrong lessons from what happened. 

 

This is the most amazingly lucky story ever .... this is almost a fairy tale .... if you tried to repeat this experiment - you could never do it.

Amazing how the lucky drivers somehow get the good cars in the end.  I do not think it was luck at all.  He was, and is, pretty much of a machine.  He gets his temper up but as far as I can tell he has never wallowed in self doubt.  Picking the wrong girlfriend or falling out with is dad is not in his mindset.  It was pretty clear to many early on (past the initial announcement of his F1 debut that started this thread) that he was something special.  Brazil in the rain in particular stands out.  I am sure that you could not repeat this experiment if Max wasn't part of it, but I am confident that no matter the starting point, Max would be where he is now.



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#952 A3

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Posted 15 May 2023 - 21:39

 It was pretty clear to many early on (past the initial announcement of his F1 debut that started this thread) that he was something special.  

 

Already evident during his 2014 F3 season. Especially Spa. He just dominated those 3 races. Followed by another 3 wins at the Norisring. 

 



#953 OneLapWonder

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Posted 16 May 2023 - 07:44

Already evident during his 2014 F3 season. Especially Spa. He just dominated those 3 races. Followed by another 3 wins at the Norisring. 

 

 

That move on Ocon at the 21m35s mark is just stunning. Not a lot of drivers would do that. Kinda reminds me of Leclerc on Verstappen at Stowe during their Silverstone 2019 battle (https://www.youtube....h?v=RmvZyC6s_Wk - see around 04m05s)



#954 jAnO76

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Posted 16 May 2023 - 09:31

That move on Ocon at the 21m35s mark is just stunning. Not a lot of drivers would do that. Kinda reminds me of Leclerc on Verstappen at Stowe during their Silverstone 2019 battle (https://www.youtube....h?v=RmvZyC6s_Wk - see around 04m05s)

 

Youtube tip, you can link to a specific time -> ?t=#seconds
https://youtu.be/RmvZyC6s_Wk?t=238



#955 GentlemanDriver091

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Posted 16 May 2023 - 11:02

That move on Ocon at the 21m35s mark is just stunning. Not a lot of drivers would do that. Kinda reminds me of Leclerc on Verstappen at Stowe during their Silverstone 2019 battle (https://www.youtube....h?v=RmvZyC6s_Wk - see around 04m05s)

@1:14 The same move as in Austria where Charles didn’t back out but Max in Silverstone did.

Brilliant racing between those two.

#956 zanquis

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Posted 16 May 2023 - 18:39

Clearly, Verstappen adapted to F1 remarkably well, but I maintain that a year in F2 could only have helped him in regards to racecraft, which was an issue for him early in his F1 career.

Please no, Max would have then made his debut in 2016 and won a race in his first season, Lewis Hamilton fans would go even more crazy about stuff than now.
Let them have that unique record of Lewis :)



#957 zanquis

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Posted 16 May 2023 - 18:42

I hope so, Verstappen drove like a gangster on track in first 1-2 seasons. Only other drivers professionalism made possible that a serious accident  did not happened.

Not any different from any other talented young driver though.

A few of the more recent multi WDC where very reckless in their first seasons, even the one that actually won a GP2 title.

So it is not like that owuld have prevented driving like a gangster because the GP2 champ did that even after his first WDC.



#958 milestone 11

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Posted 16 May 2023 - 18:50

Please no, Max would have then made his debut in 2016 and won a race in his first season, Lewis Hamilton fans would go even more crazy about stuff than now.
Let them have that unique record of Lewis :)

Here we go, I wondered how long it would take to plumb the depths. Maybe we should have a Hamilton to replace Montoya for 2007 thread

#959 Beamer

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 08:20

Here we go, I wondered how long it would take to plumb the depths. Maybe we should have a Hamilton to replace Montoya for 2007 thread

 

here you go:

 https://forums.autos...nso-in-mclaren/

or this one: https://forums.autos...-within-5-years

ro this one: https://forums.autos...faster-than-him

 

All started prior to 2007 


Edited by Beamer, 17 May 2023 - 08:25.


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#960 Clatter

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 12:21

KavB's comment has aged well as the FIA quickly instituted a minimum age limit of 18 to race in F1, didn't it?


And they have to pass the driving test.

#961 Clatter

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 12:26

Please no, Max would have then made his debut in 2016 and won a race in his first season, Lewis Hamilton fans would go even more crazy about stuff than now.
Let them have that unique record of Lewis :)


What's unique about that record?

#962 Myrvold

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 14:23

Please no, Max would have then made his debut in 2016 and won a race in his first season, Lewis Hamilton fans would go even more crazy about stuff than now.
Let them have that unique record of Lewis :)

 

What record?



#963 RedRabbit

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 14:27

Please no, Max would have then made his debut in 2016 and won a race in his first season, Lewis Hamilton fans would go even more crazy about stuff than now.
Let them have that unique record of Lewis :)


Other drivers won in their debut season.

Jacques Villeneuve as an example.

#964 RedRabbit

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 14:29

Fernando Alonso won the WEC championship as a rookie. 😉

#965 flyboym3

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 19:15

So.. what’s the verdict people? Too soon?

Too soon for me, I'd like to see how he handles a car later in his career without the benefit of Adrian Newey vehicle dynamics. Which have a tendency to make average drivers look good or good drivers look excellent.

Itd be a real shame if all he ever did was win with Newey and I'm not sure how brave he reallyis to try it. I think he could do it but then I'm not sure after seeing Vettel and Riccardio struggle massively relatively and look like shadows of themselves.

Edited by flyboym3, 17 May 2023 - 19:17.


#966 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 19:42

Ricciardo only struggled at McLaren.
Vettel also lost out against Ricciardo at Red Bull.

Max is on a different planet to them

#967 Beri

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 19:55

Too soon for me, I'd like to see how he handles a car later in his career without the benefit of Adrian Newey vehicle dynamics. Which have a tendency to make average drivers look good or good drivers look excellent.
Itd be a real shame if all he ever did was win with Newey and I'm not sure how brave he reallyis to try it. I think he could do it but then I'm not sure after seeing Vettel and Riccardio struggle massively relatively and look like shadows of themselves.


I'd like to see Hamilton winning races without a Mercedes engine.

These claims don't add anything.

#968 Henri Greuter

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 20:12

Too soon for me, I'd like to see how he handles a car later in his career without the benefit of Adrian Newey vehicle dynamics. Which have a tendency to make average drivers look good or good drivers look excellent.

Itd be a real shame if all he ever did was win with Newey and I'm not sure how brave he reallyis to try it. I think he could do it but then I'm not sure after seeing Vettel and Riccardio struggle massively relatively and look like shadows of themselves.

Watch 2015: the Toro Rosso wasn't a Adrian Newey vehicle.



#969 ARTGP

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 21:55

Too soon for me, I'd like to see how he handles a car later in his career without the benefit of Adrian Newey vehicle dynamics. Which have a tendency to make average drivers look good or good drivers look excellent.

Itd be a real shame if all he ever did was win with Newey and I'm not sure how brave he reallyis to try it. I think he could do it but then I'm not sure after seeing Vettel and Riccardio struggle massively relatively and look like shadows of themselves.

 

 If RB makes average drivers look good, wth were Albon, Gasly, and Perez doing in the last 3 years. Looking good doesn't even come close. Vettel only struggled towards the back end of his career, mid 2018 onwards. Ricciardo was excellent at Renault.  

 

Funny enough, no driver ever looked bad driving a Mercedes. Am I doing it right?  :lol:


Edited by ARTGP, 17 May 2023 - 22:05.


#970 thefinalapex

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 22:56

Too soon for me, I'd like to see how he handles a car later in his career without the benefit of Adrian Newey vehicle dynamics. Which have a tendency to make average drivers look good or good drivers look excellent.

Itd be a real shame if all he ever did was win with Newey and I'm not sure how brave he reallyis to try it. I think he could do it but then I'm not sure after seeing Vettel and Riccardio struggle massively relatively and look like shadows of themselves.

 

Ha you could say the same about the Mercs as it made Bottas look quick, Zhou has shown that Bottas is just a mediocre driver. Zhou of all drivers, let that sink in. 



#971 Nemo1965

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Posted 18 May 2023 - 07:28

Amazing how the lucky drivers somehow get the good cars in the end.  I do not think it was luck at all.  He was, and is, pretty much of a machine.  He gets his temper up but as far as I can tell he has never wallowed in self doubt.  Picking the wrong girlfriend or falling out with is dad is not in his mindset.  It was pretty clear to many early on (past the initial announcement of his F1 debut that started this thread) that he was something special.  Brazil in the rain in particular stands out.  I am sure that you could not repeat this experiment if Max wasn't part of it, but I am confident that no matter the starting point, Max would be where he is now.

 

This touches on something I posted in the Unpopular Opinion-threads: 'F1-fans used to pity 'the best driver' not being in the best car (or the right car at the right moment, or not often enough like Stirling Moss, Chris Amon and Fernando Alonso). Now they pity the drivers that are not the best because they are not in the best car.'

 

The professionalisation of F1 (whatever you think of it) of course also has extended to... teams being so professional getting the best possible driver for their car. I have to say that in the past I am in hindsight amazed that teams picked drivers that had failed time and time again at other teams. Or drivers that did not have that a good reputation. I sometimes think that until the 80's teams kind of picked drivers because they were available. Or had money to bring with. Or did not ask for a lot of money. Ken Tyrrel, Colin Chapman and Frank Williams were not not cheapskates but they DID believe that no drivers was worth spending a lot of money on. Ron Dennis was the first (in my memory) who just was determined to get Niki Lauda at McLaren because he thought he was THAT driver he needed for developing his team towards the turbo-era (and he was right). Lauda said himself that Dennis was 'eerily determined' to get his services. 

 

 

So...if teams get more professional, they will spend more money on drivers be prepared to pursue certain drivers to the 9th degree. Red Bull believed Max was the future... so they let him debut at 16! Mercedes (who was winning championships anyway) did not want to take the risk. So when the momentum switched from Mercedes to Red Bull, they not only had the best car but arguably the best driver also. Which is a bummer for fans who want the front car not running away with each race. Of course the battle would be fantastic if, say, Checo Perez, was in the Red Bull and Max and Charles were in the Ferrari's. Then you would get close racing, which would seem like a meritocratic balance.

 

But it would not be, not really... 



#972 P123

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Posted 18 May 2023 - 07:28

Ha you could say the same about the Mercs as it made Bottas look quick, Zhou has shown that Bottas is just a mediocre driver. Zhou of all drivers, let that sink in. 

 

Ah, so many dummies being spat. :)  Of course flyboy's claims are slightly risible, but are you sure Merc made VB looked quick?  He faced nothing but abuse and dreams of who could do a better job.  He's a yo-yo driver, a bit like a DC sort- extremely fast, and at other times invisible.  Not far off what Perez is either.  And he's the same at Sauber.  I think Zhou is doing a commendable job, much less erratic than the likes of Tsunoda.  But the points are something like 55 to 10. 

 

In terms of Newey cars, there is an interesting history.  Some drivers have absolutely flown in them- Mansell, Raikkonen, Vettel, Verstappen - whereas at the same time their respective teammates have struggled badly.



#973 thefinalapex

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Posted 18 May 2023 - 13:56

Ah, so many dummies being spat. :)  Of course flyboy's claims are slightly risible, but are you sure Merc made VB looked quick?  He faced nothing but abuse and dreams of who could do a better job.  He's a yo-yo driver, a bit like a DC sort- extremely fast, and at other times invisible.  Not far off what Perez is either.  And he's the same at Sauber.  I think Zhou is doing a commendable job, much less erratic than the likes of Tsunoda.  But the points are something like 55 to 10. 

 

In terms of Newey cars, there is an interesting history.  Some drivers have absolutely flown in them- Mansell, Raikkonen, Vettel, Verstappen - whereas at the same time their respective teammates have struggled badly.

 

I expected to Bottas to blitz an over the hill Massa at Williams but although he was the better driver it wasn't that much of difference. Bottas is probably quicker then for instance Perez over a lap, but as a racer? give me Perez anyday of the week. 



#974 garoidb

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Posted 18 May 2023 - 15:34

I expected to Bottas to blitz an over the hill Massa at Williams but although he was the better driver it wasn't that much of difference. Bottas is probably quicker then for instance Perez over a lap, but as a racer? give me Perez anyday of the week. 

 

Massa wasn't over the hill, though. That was made up for different purposes.



#975 jAnO76

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Posted 18 May 2023 - 15:44

Ah, so many dummies being spat. :) Of course flyboy's claims are slightly risible, but are you sure Merc made VB looked quick?

Hehe.. I’m not so sure tbh. 😉

#976 ForzaFormula

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Posted 18 May 2023 - 16:30

I expected to Bottas to blitz an over the hill Massa at Williams but although he was the better driver it wasn't that much of difference. Bottas is probably quicker then for instance Perez over a lap, but as a racer? give me Perez anyday of the week. 

 

Disagree completely, Bottas is a much more consistent in race events over the course of the season, Perez is a one trick poney, he has 2-4 special races in a season the others he is just inconsistent and is usually not a good qualifier at all which compromises him in many races, in this formula especially Bottas with his more consistent qualifying will finish more races higher up even if he often lacks race craft, making him a more consistent over a season, he would beat Perez over a season.



#977 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 18 May 2023 - 19:43

Disagree completely, Bottas is a much more consistent in race events over the course of the season, Perez is a one trick poney, he has 2-4 special races in a season the others he is just inconsistent and is usually not a good qualifier at all which compromises him in many races, in this formula especially Bottas with his more consistent qualifying will finish more races higher up even if he often lacks race craft, making him a more consistent over a season, he would beat Perez over a season.

not true.

Bottas is terrible in wheel to wheel, can't defend if his life depends on it and it takes him ages to make a pass... and he is the one trick pony (just qualifying good).



#978 ForzaFormula

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Posted 19 May 2023 - 17:03

not true.

Bottas is terrible in wheel to wheel, can't defend if his life depends on it and it takes him ages to make a pass... and he is the one trick pony (just qualifying good).

It is true, and the exact fact he is good at qualifying means he will finish higher up over a season than Perez who is highly inconsistent and only has 2-3 good races in a season, he is not even a top 10 driver, he also got hammered by Button....



#979 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 19 May 2023 - 19:39

It is true, and the exact fact he is good at qualifying means he will finish higher up over a season than Perez who is highly inconsistent and only has 2-3 good races in a season, he is not even a top 10 driver, he also got hammered by Button....

Perez is not highly inconsistent.
He got beaten by Button when he was a stupid hot head not listening to advice. But he was pretty close to Button. And Button is not a nobody, became WDC and also beat Lewis over their time there.

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#980 Taxi

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Posted 20 May 2023 - 10:39

Yeah, I really don't get the hype either.

 

How many young drivers have had one great year in the junior categories, and then never been heard of again? Moreover, how many drivers from junior categories looked The Real Deal, but never lived up to expectations in F1? Far too many to list.

 

If he's as good a talent now as some are saying, well, he may be even better with a year or two in GP2/WSR. Happy to be proven wrong, but I feel it is far too soon, and as already pointed out, the scary thing is that he could be washed up by 20. :|

 

 

This aged well. :D



#981 JHSingo

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Posted 20 May 2023 - 10:49

This aged well. :D

 

Please can we stop bringing this thread up already. Yes, I got it wrong, you don't have to keep reminding me all the time.  ):  

 

:p



#982 Sterzo

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Posted 20 May 2023 - 12:16

Please can we stop bringing this thread up already. Yes, I got it wrong, you don't have to keep reminding me all the time.  ):  

 

:p

 

We're all far too considerate to bring it up again, but could you give me some investment tips so I can put my money elsewhere?
 



#983 zanquis

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Posted 23 May 2023 - 21:47

Other drivers won in their debut season.

Jacques Villeneuve as an example.

 

It is more that after his debut, Max won every year since, the uniqueness is that Hamilton won so many years from year 1.

I wasn't clear enough on that it seems.

But yeah if you can debut in a winning car such records are possible, not those that had to prove themselves in backmarker teams first.



#984 zanquis

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Posted 23 May 2023 - 21:49

What record?

Winning atleast 1 race from debut until 2022.
Lewis now has the longest streak shared with Schumacher, with difference being that Schumacher won in what was technically his second season.

Max won a race in his 2nd season and won a race since.

 



#985 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 May 2023 - 21:59

Man. For everybody who I doubted in the Max thread about this - my bad! Really didn't expect anything like this.

As exciting as this is, I was really hoping us fans of other teams might get a few years of quiet before this kid comes in and blows everybody else away....

Dont normally like to pat myself on the back, but I think anybody who was paying attention back then understood the superstar we were seeing.  Probably the most talented driver in this sport since Senna, no exaggeration.  



#986 JimmyClark

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Posted 23 May 2023 - 22:07

It is more that after his debut, Max won every year since, the uniqueness is that Hamilton won so many years from year 1.

I wasn't clear enough on that it seems.

But yeah if you can debut in a winning car such records are possible, not those that had to prove themselves in backmarker teams first.

 

And, until 2022, all those winning years in a row came in cars that didn't win the constructors' title. Has any other driver won races 6 years in a row in a non-constructors' championship winning car? 



#987 Collombin

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Posted 23 May 2023 - 22:19

Has any other driver won races 6 years in a row in a non-constructors' championship winning car?


Inconvenient as this may be for the narrative, yes.

#988 noikeee

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Posted 23 May 2023 - 22:48

Er, Hamilton. 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013. You could even include 2007 but McLaren only failed to win the WCC on a technicality. A 100 million dollar technicality.

 

Actually I just realised the last time McLaren won the constructors championship was in 1998.  :stoned: Yikes.



#989 Collombin

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Posted 23 May 2023 - 23:02

Nelson Piquet at Brabham too. I doubt anyone before that would apply because the rules of the WCC probably militated against it - eg Lotus won it in the year they had Dave Walker!

#990 zanquis

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Posted 05 June 2023 - 14:08

The difference might be that in those years, technically they had a car capable of winning the title if they had a 2nd driver that collected points.

Piquet became champion in 1983, his teammate had a terrible track record barely finished a race, but finished on the podium 50% of the time if he finished and won 25% of the races he finished. That car had the speed.

Hamilton had Kovalainen as a teammate who just didn't perform well, yes he won a race (shows how good that McLaren actually was) but only finished 7th.

Anyway, not to take credit way from them because Max, Lewis and Nelson are exceptionally quick and bold drivers that I like as a driver, not going into the personalities now.

 



#991 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 05 June 2023 - 20:01

So, what do you guys think? Did the move pan out or should they in hindsight have stuck with Vergne?

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 05 June 2023 - 20:01.


#992 GentlemanDriver091

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Posted 05 June 2023 - 20:22

So, what do you guys think? Did the move pan out or should they in hindsight have stuck with Vergne?

I’d say they should’ve stuck with Vergne.

#993 skinnyman

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Posted 05 June 2023 - 21:58

Er, Hamilton. 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013. You could even include 2007 but McLaren only failed to win the WCC on a technicality. A 100 million dollar technicality.

Actually I just realised the last time McLaren won the constructors championship was in 1998. :stoned: Yikes.


They have lost 2007 WCC on Hungary shenanigans even without spygate penalty.

#994 HenryGoon

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Posted 05 June 2023 - 22:09

I remember this clearly, so many people including myself were like who is this guy. He is too young and not even raced in many single seater championships. Now he has gone on to become a formidable force and will be one of the greatest drivers. A generational talent like Lewis. I remember Martin interviewing Max and saying naturally the baton is handed over when drivers get older and although in 2021 Lewis still showed he was the best out of the two when the pressure mounted, Max is now taking that Baton from Lewis.

Edited by HenryGoon, 05 June 2023 - 22:09.


#995 renzmann

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Posted 06 June 2023 - 12:04

I remember this clearly, so many people including myself were like who is this guy. He is too young and not even raced in many single seater championships. Now he has gone on to become a formidable force and will be one of the greatest drivers. A generational talent like Lewis. I remember Martin interviewing Max and saying naturally the baton is handed over when drivers get older and although in 2021 Lewis still showed he was the best out of the two when the pressure mounted, Max is now taking that Baton from Lewis.

 

Not the thread, and also not true :p



#996 EightGear

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Posted 06 June 2023 - 12:51

I think Vergne would have made Q3 in Australia 2015 while Max didn't, so no, clearly a wrong decision.