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Early Tasman series drivers - who is left?


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#1 wilga1

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 07:47

The recent death of Jack Brabham has caused me to think about how many of our heroes from when we were younger are still with us.

 

Motor racing is dangerous, and you wonder how many were killed on track, and how many got to old age.

 

To use an arbitrary example I have used below the first Tasman Series race at Sydney’s Warwick Farm in February 1964. I attended this race. This is just over 50 years ago

Drivers are listed in qualifying order.

 

          Driver                            Car                            c.c.           Status

1 Frank Matich         Repco-Brabham Climax   2495       Alive

2 Denny Hulme         Repco-Brabham Climax   2495      Deceased

3 Jack Brabham       Repco-Brabham Climax   2495      Deceased

4 Graham Hill            Repco-Brabham Climax   2495      Deceased

5 Bruce McLaren     Cooper Climax                   2495      Deceased

6 Timmy Mayer        Cooper Climax                   2495      Deceased

7 John Youl               Cooper Climax                   2495      Deceased

8 Lex Davison          Cooper Climax                   2496      Deceased

9 Bib Stillwell            Repco-Brabham Climax   2495      Deceased

10 Leo Geoghegan  Lotus 27 Ford                    1475      Alive

11 Frank Gardner    Repco-Brabham Ford       1499      Deceased

12 Jim Palmer          Cooper Climax                  2495      Alive

13 Greg Cusack       Repco-Brabham Ford      1495      Alive

14 Tony Shelly          Lola Climax                        2495      Deceased

15 Glyn Scott            Lotus 27 Ford                    1498      Deceased

16 David Walker      Repco-Brabham Ford       1475     Alive

17 Jack Hunnam      Elfin Ford                            1498     ??

18 Charlie Smith      Elfin Ford                            1472      Alive

19 Arnold Glass       Lotus 27 Ford                     1499      Deceased

20 Rex Flowers        Lotus 20B                           1498      Alive

 

The one driver I don’t know about is Jack Hunnam. The rest I believe I am reasonably sure of.

 

So of the 19 drivers (excluding Hunnam) 7 are still alive. This is 37%.

I am no expert, but I would say this is probably in line with the general male population, for living 50 years from your late twenties early thirties.

If we assume their average age at the time was probably 30, then they would now be 80 plus.

 

Looking at those deceased, one could probably conclude that racing is probably not so dangerous.

Of the 12 deceased, six basically died from "old age", and only 3 died racing or practicing.

Two did die from heart attacks on the track but that was probably going to happen anyway.

One died in a plane crash.

 

Presented for interest



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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 08:36

Another statistic...

Only one went on to carve an overseas career.

#3 Wirra

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 10:33

The recent death of Jack Brabham...

 

That's SIR Jack Brabham to you.

 

Another statistic...

Only one went on to carve an overseas career.

 

?? Frank Gardner AND David Walker I would have thought.



#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 13:24

I did say 'went on to'...

Gardner returned for this race. As he did for most Tasman Cup events under the 2.5-litre formula and a bunch under the F5000 rules. His European career was well under way by '64.

#5 Wirra

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 17:41

Fair enough, I was thinking more along the line that he didn't race F1 until mid '64.


Edited by Wirra, 19 August 2014 - 17:42.


#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 21:51

My thoughts were that the Tasman Cup's ideology included the thought that local drivers might use it to springboard to international careers...

Did it happen with others?

#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 06:38

In the meantime, Chris Amon and Derek Bell are still with us...

Are they early enough? Amon should be, a bunch of Kiwis would still be with us I'd think. Kerry Grant? Dennis Marwood, Graeme Lawrence, up to what year do you consider early?

#8 Macca

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 08:11

Although the Tasman Series wasn't named as such until 1964, there are international drivers who took part in the races before then who are still with us - Moss, Surtees, Gurney, Piper (and indeed Amon).

 

Paul M



#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 09:21

And Leo Geoghegan, Bob Holden, Frank Matich...

When you look at the line-ups for the 1961 Australian races there are some with nobody but Dan left, some with none.

#10 opplock

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 13:03


Did it happen with others?

I can't think of anyone who competed regularly in F1 but Graham McRae's performances with his National Formula car in 1968/69 led to an F2 campaign and considerable success in F5000 in Europe and North America. He did race in the 1973 British GP. Graeme Lawrance competed in F2 in 1968 without success, likewise in Can-Am in 1970.

 

Two other drivers who competed in the 1968/69 NZ National Formula were John Nicholson (one GP start) who is better known for Nicholson-McLaren Engines and Bert Hawthorne (killed in practice for an F2 race at Hockenheim in 1972).



#11 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:24

McRae is a definite for all of that... he had a successful career overseas...

Warwick Brown was another later on.

#12 cooper997

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 03:47

I don't have any programmes from the NZ leg of the first Tasman in 1964, but here's the first of the Aussie rounds - 9/2/64 Sandown. Also doubled as the AGP & Gold Star.

 

1964_Tasman_Sandown.jpg
forum image hosting

 

This still doesn't greaten the number of surviving drivers a whole lot.

 

Tony Osborne is still with us. I have some recollection of maybe James Lambert posting that Jack Hunnam had passed, sometime over the last couple of years.

 

But apart from those already mentioned in Cusack, Geoghegan, Matich, Smith & Walker from the Aussies, i'm not sure on Fletcher, Rilstone & McEwin. If I'm not barking up the wrong tree, Mel McEwin worked for VDO as a sales rep in the 90s. He also had a HSV 'Walkinshaw' VL Group A during the 90s. But it's probably the better part of 15 years since I've seen him.   

 

Stephen

 

 



#13 wilga1

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 07:47

And Leo Geoghegan, Bob Holden, Frank Matich...When you look at the line-ups for the 1961 Australian races there are some with nobody but Dan left, some with none.


Was Bob Holden a Tasman Series driver?

#14 ReWind

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 09:39

Tony Osborne is still with us.   
 
Stephen

 
Unfortunately not. He recently passed away. (Source)

VALE – TONY OSBORNE
I and all others at WP last weekend were very saddened to learn of the recent passing of Victorian enthusiast and good mate, Tony Osborne. Tony was a regular NSW participant who loved to cross the border and compete at Wakefield Park and Eastern Creek and will be well remembered for his exploits with the CWM, GAF MG, Simca sports and of course his long term love the Riley.
I had many a ding dong race with Tony when I raced the Sulman Singer and will sadly miss his smiling happy face in the team R pits, and his company whilst enjoying a glass of red and a steak at the Astor, Isle of White, or Red Cattle Dog. Tony was a great mate to many in our JKL group. He was always friendly and cheerful and of course, very competitive. He will be sadly missed and to Marge and family we offer our sincerest condolences.


Obituaries
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c9a43803072ec77bd651762c4e7ea989_w180_h2

Edited by ReWind, 24 August 2014 - 09:52.


#15 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 13:30

Originally posted by wilga1
Was Bob Holden a Tasman Series driver?


To my recollection, no... he never drove in a Tasman Cup race...

#16 john medley

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 20:47

Wrong Tony Osborne



#17 wilga1

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 20:57

To my recollection, no... he never drove in a Tasman Cup race...


So Ray another mistake in post 9............

#18 Catalina Park

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 21:21

I suppose he did race in the international meetings that preceded the Tasman Cup though. That should count for something.
If you read Ray's post he was responding to Macca's post about pre Tasman International series drivers such as Gurney, Moss, etc.

Edited by Catalina Park, 24 August 2014 - 21:28.


#19 SJ Lambert

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 21:58

Yes Stephen, I may well have done, I corresponded briefly with Jack Hunnam in the lead up to the 50 year Elfin Anniversary, he has subsequently passed away, perhaps around 2011/2.

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#20 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 22:54

Originally posted by Catalina Park
I suppose he did race in the international meetings that preceded the Tasman Cup though. That should count for something.
If you read Ray's post he was responding to Macca's post about pre Tasman International series drivers such as Gurney, Moss, etc.

Thank you, Mountain Man...

That's precisely what that post was about, it's why I named Leo and Frank again. Bob Holden ran his Lynx Peugeot in the Warwick Farm race, the AGP, of 1963. He might have also run at Sandown, but I don't have any reports on that race.

John, I noticed in one early race listing that Tony Osbourne was spelled that way, is that correct?

And is David Fletcher still about?

Edited by Ray Bell, 24 August 2014 - 22:55.


#21 cooper997

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 03:20

Despite the fact that the OP of this thread covers 16/2/64 Warwick Farm, here's the scanned entry list.

 

1964_Tasman_Warwick_Farm.jpg
free picture upload

 

Thank you to Mr Medley for correcting that it was the other Tony Osborne who has passed. Plus, James about Jack Hunnam.

 

In conversation with Bob Holden at Sandown, last November (while showing him a photo of the rear of his Lynx Peugeot) and the response basically went like this. "I was at a Tasman meeting and Bruce McLaren took the Lynx for a test. He liked it and said he was building something similar." Now I then tried to coax what meeting that would have been. But as many of you who know Bob, he's a great bloke and doesn't mind a chat with a fellow competitor or enthusiast, but on race weekend his main focus is that the race cars (usually 3 of them) are running well. So unfortunately I wasn't able to coax whether it might have been at, say Sandown or Warwick Farm. It's also a huge number of races ago for Bob. I will speculate that it was 1963 though. Which then brings us to the following, despite the bollocking that the late Mr McKinney would give me or anyone else for that matter, to dare call a pre-1964 NZ or Australian International 'Tasman'. I can say that numerous drivers and even mechanics of the era talk 'Tasman' prior to 1964. No it's not official, but that's the way they remember/state things in conversation.

 

Stephen

 

 

 

 



#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 06:15

The very last pre-Tasman Cup International event was at Longford in 1963...

Holden was actually in that race too, as well as Sandown... but was he at Lakeside that year?

He wasn't able to run in any Tasman Cup or Gold Star events in 1964 because he fitted a supercharged engine prior to the beginning of that year. It remained supercharged throughout Colin Bond's ownership and beyond.

#23 wilga1

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 06:36

I don't have any programmes from the NZ leg of the first Tasman in 1964, but here's the first of the Aussie rounds - 9/2/64 Sandown. Also doubled as the AGP & Gold Star.
 
1964_Tasman_Sandown.jpgforum image hosting
 
This still doesn't greaten the number of surviving drivers a whole lot.
 
Tony Osborne is still with us. I have some recollection of maybe James Lambert posting that Jack Hunnam had passed, sometime over the last couple of years.
 
But apart from those already mentioned in Cusack, Geoghegan, Matich, Smith & Walker from the Aussies, i'm not sure on Fletcher, Rilstone & McEwin. If I'm not barking up the wrong tree, Mel McEwin worked for VDO as a sales rep in the 90s. He also had a HSV 'Walkinshaw' VL Group A during the 90s. But it's probably the better part of 15 years since I've seen him.   
 

Stephen


Thanks Stephen for your post, which is inline with my intentions for starting this thread.

Ray Bell has done 8 posts on miscellaneous but unrelated matters on this thread but none could be considered by a reasonable person to be relevant to the title or intention of my thread. It is frustrating to have to keep trying to keep this tread on track.

Stephen I will come back on the actual starters for the Sandown race as there are conflicting details in different records.

#24 wilga1

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 07:06

Despite the fact that the OP of this thread covers 16/2/64 Warwick Farm, here's the scanned entry list.

1964_Tasman_Warwick_Farm.jpgfree picture upload

Thank you to Mr Medley for correcting that it was the other Tony Osborne who has passed. Plus, James about Jack Hunnam.

In conversation with Bob Holden at Sandown, last November (while showing him a photo of the rear of his Lynx Peugeot) and the response basically went like this. "I was at a Tasman meeting and Bruce McLaren took the Lynx for a test. He liked it and said he was building something similar." Now I then tried to coax what meeting that would have been. But as many of you who know Bob, he's a great bloke and doesn't mind a chat with a fellow competitor or enthusiast, but on race weekend his main focus is that the race cars (usually 3 of them) are running well. So unfortunately I wasn't able to coax whether it might have been at, say Sandown or Warwick Farm. It's also a huge number of races ago for Bob. I will speculate that it was 1963 though. Which then brings us to the following, despite the bollocking that the late Mr McKinney would give me or anyone else for that matter, to dare call a pre-1964 NZ or Australian International 'Tasman'. I can say that numerous drivers and even mechanics of the era talk 'Tasman' prior to 1964. No it's not official, but that's the way they remember/state things in conversation.

Stephen

Bob Holden did compete in his Lynx Peugeot at the February 1964 Warwick Farm meeting.
He was in event 2 a 10 lap Racing Car Scratch Race.
He finished third behind Ian Geoghegan and Frank Gardner

It was on page 41 of the program

By the way for interest were you at that meeting?

Edited by wilga1, 25 August 2014 - 07:20.


#25 Catalina Park

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 08:06

Thanks Stephen for your post, which is inline with my intentions for starting this thread.

Ray Bell has done 8 posts on miscellaneous but unrelated matters on this thread but none could be considered by a reasonable person to be relevant to the title or intention of my thread. It is frustrating to have to keep trying to keep this tread on track.
 

I admit your thread title is "Early Tasman Series Drivers - Who is left?" and I assumed by that you would intend to cover the International races at places like Warwick Farm, Sandown, Ballarat, Longford, etc. but it appears that you wish to ignore these races and drivers to get a very narrow view. It seems odd to ignore the races like Warwick Farm 63 just because the Tasman Cup hadn't been invented yet.
Maybe you could make the thread title "Early Tasman Series Drivers 1964/65 - Who is left?" to avoid any confusion.

I have also noticed that you appear to have a problem with only Ray Bell for mentioning the races before 64. Other people have posted about these races and drivers but you have only chipped Ray. That makes you look like a real ********.

I have not been very active on this forum recently and I will probably not be very active here in the future.  

 



#26 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 08:47

While I admit I added the spectre of the Tasman Cup races being a launching pad for local drivers to go overseas, I also was the first one to post about Tasman Cup drivers I knew still survived...

Looking at my posts, the first four were about the issue of the 'launching pad'.

The next one was the first post directly answering the opening post. It also asked 'how early' in relation to Tasman Cup events. That has not yet been answered.

I then responded, as Catalina has mentioned, to macca's suggestion about pre-Tasman Cup events, but I made it clear that was what I was talking about.

My other posts had been basically in response to questions others have asked. However, I am being treated to accusations that are upsetting other posters.

So maybe it's time for me to add a bit more to the thread, and in keeping with the posts made by others:

Keith Rilstone died about eight or ten years ago. Mel McEwin, unless something has happened recently, is still alive.

And ask, yet again, 'how early'?

#27 wenoopy

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 11:25

I approach this post with some trepidation, wondering if the warring parties might suddenly unite to repel the NZ interloper.

 

I have looked through the results(as I have them) of the NZ Tasman races of 1964 and have 11 drivers who didn't run at Warwick Farm or any other Australian round. Some are definitely alive, some definitely not, and some I don't know which. 

 

So, here goes :

 

Alive : -  Chris Amon - Ran and retired in all 4 races in a 2.5 Lola

              Andy Buchanan - 3 finishes in a 1.5 Brabham

              Peter Slocombe - Lotus 1.5

              Dene Hollier - Cooper 1.5 - ex motor-cycle racer from early 1950's still alive 18 months ago

 

Deceased : - Bill Thomasen - Cooper 2.5 T51 - 2 starts, 5th at Teretonga

                     Roly Levis - 4 Brabham 1.5 - 4 finishes, 6th at Teretonga - died a year ago aged 88 

                     Bruce Abernethy - Cooper 1.5 T41(!) - died 1999. A speedway rider in NZ & UK from late '40's - a unique character.

                    

Not Sure : -  Neil Whittaker - Cooper T45 2.0

                    David Young - Cooper 1.5 T62 - 2 finishes - didn't race after 1964

                    Ken Sager - Lotus 1.5 - 3 finishes

                    above 3 quite likely still alive

                    Jim Boyd - Valour-Ford 1.5 -  I don't think Jim is still with us.

 

A number of more familiar names appeared in the 1965 NZ races - John Riley(father of Brett), Red Dawson, Kerry Grant, Ken Smith, Bill Stone, and Graeme Lawrence, but as the original question related to 1964. If we were to extend the list to earlier years, it might be interesting to see who was still alive. 

 

Stu Buchanan



#28 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 11:52

Don't worry, Stu, you're welcome...

I don't see that the original question related only to '64 at all, but the title does say 'early' so I'd like to know just where the cutoff is.

I also had an idea Chris Amon had run in those '64 races but had no race reports to check. I should have gone to the sergent site, right?

#29 ReWind

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 12:53

Re: Chris Amon. Just look here.



#30 cooper997

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:58

As can be seen from the following entry list, the QMSC had trouble getting drivers to come north for the 23/2/64 Lakeside round.

 

1964_Tasman_Lakeside.jpg
image post

 

In answer to wilga1, I wish I could have been at some of these Tasman meetings. But too young (in fact not even born when the 1964 rounds took place). It's all just trivia gathered in pursuing my interest in Mini Coopers and Cooper racing cars  That then blows out into other marques as well.

 

Stephen



#31 wilga1

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 05:23

As can be seen from the following entry list, the QMSC had trouble getting drivers to come north for the 23/2/64 Lakeside round.
 
1964_Tasman_Lakeside.jpgimage post
 
In answer to wilga1, I wish I could have been at some of these Tasman meetings. But too young (in fact not even born when the 1964 rounds took place). It's all just trivia gathered in pursuing my interest in Mini Coopers and Cooper racing cars  That then blows out into other marques as well.
 
Stephen


Stephen I was wondering why I could not recall seeing you at that Farm meeting...........

Re the Lakeside program it seems for some reason they only listed the 2.5L cars. There were also 7 smaller cars in the race.
Stillwell didn't start for some reason (possibly because they spelt his name wrong), so there were 7 2.5l cars and 7 smaller

Also 87 seems a strange number to give Matich. Unfortunately I can't immediately find any photos of him in the race to verify.

For the full listing of participants in the Lakeside race can I suggest you go into Sargent.com.au/motor/tasman1964 and work your way through to the story and results on this race.

#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 06:23

A couple of points, if I may...

Lakeside was the penultimate round, it fitted in between Warwick Farm and Longford and it was a very long way to go to get from Lakeside to Longford between Sunday night and Friday morning.

I think it was typical to get the boat across from Melbourne on Tuesday night (again from memory, I think it only ran every second night) and so it was rush to Melbourne, perhaps doing some preparation along the way, boat to Tassie and settle in at Launceston on Wednesday afternoon.

Just one day, Thursday, to prepare the cars for Friday out on the circuit.

Matich and No 87 - he always ran that number at Katoomba and Bathurst on the sports cars (right back to 1958 in the Austin Healey) and he was to run it on the Brabham at Bathurst a few weeks later. I feel sure that the Elfin Catalina also saw 87 on it a time or two, there may have also been some variations, 78 and 187, at times.

#33 cooper997

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:46

Despite the long haul from Lakeside to the 29/2 & 2/3/64 long weekend at Longford they took the journey. Here's Monday's entry list. Note Jack Hobden for the 'Who is left?' list.

 

1964_Tasman_Longford.jpg
screen shot on pc

 

Yep wilga1 I cant even say that I was the brat in the bassinet at those Farm meetings. Pretty sure it was a Rose City 10000 at Winton (as an 11 yo) for my first race meeting.

 

Matich used 87 on the Lotus 19B too. It's 1964 Longford entry carries that number. IIIRC, either on here, The Roaring Season or Brian Darby's site (or maybe all) there's photos of it running at Lakeside carrying 87. So definitely a preferred number.

 

Stephen



#34 wilga1

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:57

I don't have any programmes from the NZ leg of the first Tasman in 1964, but here's the first of the Aussie rounds - 9/2/64 Sandown. Also doubled as the AGP & Gold Star.

 

1964_Tasman_Sandown.jpg
forum image hosting

 

This still doesn't greaten the number of surviving drivers a whole lot.

 

Tony Osborne is still with us. I have some recollection of maybe James Lambert posting that Jack Hunnam had passed, sometime over the last couple of years.

 

But apart from those already mentioned in Cusack, Geoghegan, Matich, Smith & Walker from the Aussies, i'm not sure on Fletcher, Rilstone & McEwin. If I'm not barking up the wrong tree, Mel McEwin worked for VDO as a sales rep in the 90s. He also had a HSV 'Walkinshaw' VL Group A during the 90s. But it's probably the better part of 15 years since I've seen him.   

 

Stephen

 

The Sandown Tasman race and AGP

 

I know the Sandown race was the week before Warwick Farm, but I chose that latter because I was there and can be certain of the starters.

 

The reason for saying this is that there appears some "confusion" over who was actually in the Sandown race.

 

The easy part is that Cusack was not at the meeting, so that reduces potential field to 24 , bearing in mind unlucky 13 was not used.

 

Now were there 24 or 20 starters in the race?

 

Being an AGP I first turned to Graham Howard's excellent "The official 50 race history of the Australian Grand Prix". I always regarded Graham and Barry Lake as the best at their business and most accurate.

 

Unfortunately on page 301 the book shows 20 on the grid and 20 in the results. However they are NOT the same 20.

McLaren is on the grid but not in the results, despite being mentioned extensively in the preceding commentary.

Wally Mitchell is in the results but not on the grid.

 

It is noted on page 207 that not starting were Geoghegan, Scott and Hunnam

Hence 20 or 21 in the race.

 

However when I look in other sources I see different story. In Sergent's excellent Tasman series records he has 24 starters.

 

In the "Australian Motor Racing Annual No 1" it shows on page 9 a grid of 24, with Geoghegan on position 13, Scott on15 and Hunnam on 19.

At the articles conclusion it states "only 9 of the 24 starters finished"

 

The article in the April 1964 Sports car World says the same as above, but may have been by the same author.

 

Unfortunately I can't immediately put my hands on the relevant issue of Racing Car News to see what it says.

 

So I will pass over to the experts to elicit the true story.

 

Only then can we attempt to ascertain who is left?



#35 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:25

Adrian listed the starters as:

Brabham, McLaren, Matich, Hulme, Mayer, Davison, Stillwell, Patterson, Youl, Shelly, Palmer, Whiteford, Gardner, Walker, Mitchell, Glass, Rilstone, Smith, McEwin, Osborne and Fletcher.

21 starters.

By the way, we're still waiting for an answer to what you mean by 'early'...

#36 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:31

Hmmm...

AMS published a grid with only 20 on it. But then it gets more awkward as Glyn Scott was included while Mitchell and Fletcher were eliminated.

Wasn't the Australian Motor Racing Annual merely a reprint of Sports Car World race reports?

Edited by Ray Bell, 27 August 2014 - 09:34.


#37 wilga1

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:19

Adrian listed the starters as:Brabham, McLaren, Matich, Hulme, Mayer, Davison, Stillwell, Patterson, Youl, Shelly, Palmer, Whiteford, Gardner, Walker, Mitchell, Glass, Rilstone, Smith, McEwin, Osborne and Fletcher.21 starters.By the way, we're still waiting for an answer to what you mean by 'early'...


Who is Adrian?

#38 wilga1

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:22

Hmmm...AMS published a grid with only 20 on it. But then it gets more awkward as Glyn Scott was included while Mitchell and Fletcher were eliminated.Wasn't the Australian Motor Racing Annual merely a reprint of Sports Car World race reports?


I did say " May have been by the same author"

#39 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:55

That's right, you did...

Hence I asked you if one was a reprint of the other. Sometimes magazines did this.

And how are we going with your answer to what you mean by 'early'?

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#40 Catalina Park

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 11:47

And how are we going with your answer to what you mean by 'early'?

Early would be the NZ races. Later would be the Australian races.

Or he could be looking for the the preliminary races or maybe he simply means the ones that started before 2pm.



#41 SJ Lambert

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 20:11

Adrian Van Loon?

#42 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 20:19

Adrian Ryan...

He said he didn't have access to the issue of RCN with the Sandown report so I assumed he knew that Adrian Ryan did the reports for that magazine from very early in the sixties through until the early seventies.

#43 Lola5000

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 03:06

The Sandown Tasman race and AGP

 

I know the Sandown race was the week before Warwick Farm, but I chose that latter because I was there and can be certain of the starters.

 

The reason for saying this is that there appears some "confusion" over who was actually in the Sandown race.

 

The easy part is that Cusack was not at the meeting, so that reduces potential field to 24 , bearing in mind unlucky 13 was not used.

 

Now were there 24 or 20 starters in the race?

 

Being an AGP I first turned to Graham Howard's excellent "The official 50 race history of the Australian Grand Prix". I always regarded Graham and Barry Lake as the best at their business and most accurate.

 

Unfortunately on page 301 the book shows 20 on the grid and 20 in the results. However they are NOT the same 20.

McLaren is on the grid but not in the results, despite being mentioned extensively in the preceding commentary.

Wally Mitchell is in the results but not on the grid.

 

It is noted on page 207 that not starting were Geoghegan, Scott and Hunnam

Hence 20 or 21 in the race.

 

However when I look in other sources I see different story. In Sergent's excellent Tasman series records he has 24 starters.

 

In the "Australian Motor Racing Annual No 1" it shows on page 9 a grid of 24, with Geoghegan on position 13, Scott on15 and Hunnam on 19.

At the articles conclusion it states "only 9 of the 24 starters finished"

 

The article in the April 1964 Sports car World says the same as above, but may have been by the same author.

 

Unfortunately I can't immediately put my hands on the relevant issue of Racing Car News to see what it says.

 

So I will pass over to the experts to elicit the true story.

 

Only then can we attempt to ascertain who is left?

We know "Patto" had a boat,who else had/has a boat. :p



#44 Lola5000

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 03:08

I did say " May have been by the same author"

can you find out where there all buried?



#45 cooper997

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 03:24

A little bit from the other side of the Tasman. NZ magazine 'The Motorman' showing Timmy Mayer at 25/1/64Teretonga - round 4. Tyler Alexander and Wal Willmott (right of screen) talk things over.

 

Motorman.jpg
image hosting over 5mb

 

Stephen


Edited by cooper997, 31 August 2014 - 08:28.


#46 cooper997

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 08:13

One thing is for certain, despite their population New Zealand produced some great drivers and mechanics, and a nice Peter Greenslade & Euan Sarginson Motor Racing Annual! SHELL money helped of course. Here's the cover of the 1964 edition, featuring Timmy's Cooper T70 (probably from 4/1/64 Levin - round 1) with the best I could come up with to juxtapose Bruce's surviving car at this year's Phillip Island Historics.

 

1964_NZ_Shell_Annual.jpg
upload pic

 

Cooper_T70_2014_a.jpg
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Stephen